Template talk:Cartoon Network/Archive 1

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Samurai Jack

I think everyones having a little bit of trouble trying to find out where Samurai Jack belongs. For the time being, its been placed under Cartoon Cartoons. But it's not a cartoon cartoon. It DID air before 2003 and it WAS shown on CCF, but it's not a cartoon cartoon because it didn't have the moniker come up before it came on. Therefore, it should be placed under Other original series. The only problem with that is that that section refers to all originals that ARE considered cartoon cartoons but have been produced after 2003. That category is pretty much for every original after 2003, and its kind of making assumptions as to what would have been a cartoon cartoon. But Samurai Jack isn't a cartoon cartoon, and we know that. So it can't belong in either category. But it has to be in the template because it is an original. So where should it go. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 01:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That's true but it is a CNS original series as it actually applies to shows produced after 2001 when productions changed to Cartoon Network Studios from Hanna-Barbera Studios, not 2003. I got my year cut-off point wrong so that's why it says 2003 erroneously, edited to correct the issue. --treelo talk 21:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion Question

I'm just wondering because there were Cartoon Cartoons not produced by Hanna-Barbera/CNS and are still considered CN originals (Ed Edd N' Eddy, Courage the Cowardly Dog, etc.) Does this mean that there can be CN originals produced after 2003 that are not produced by CNS and belong on this template? 69.113.225.164 (talk) 20:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Shows produced outside Cartoon Network Studios such as the shows you mention amongst others weren't made in-house but involved a lot of input from Cartoon Network in general being the company which commissioned it. True, there should be a fourth category detailing shows which are either co-produced or commissioned by Cartoon Network but it'd mean a larger headache for those dealing with the three we have now. --treelo talk 21:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Co-Productions

I was thinking we should add co-productions to the the Template. Chop Socky Chooks, while produced by Aardman Animations, was financed by both Teletoon and Cartoon Network. George of the Jungle, while produced in Canada by Teletoon, also had Cartoon Network's financing. Same thing with Storm Hawks, expect with YTV. I think we should add a new group entitled "Co-Productions", to list these shows.--UBracter (talk) 22:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not certain of the amount any one of those shows got beyond just commissioning the show in question but even if they invested a lot into a show, they're not produced in-house which is the issue. The template is for CNS/HBS shows and not for co-productions which'd have little input from CNS. However, seeing as a decent amount of shows have been co-produced other than those three such as Robotboy and The Cramp Twins I think a seperate template for those shows specifically would help avoid the confusion between the two and create a distinction between their own productions and those they partially bankrolled. --treelo talk 23:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd say make a another template for co-produced shows, and transclude it into this template. Yngvarr (c) 23:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, why would transclusion work where inclusion wouldn't? I still feel having something separate which is specific to these very different shows is better than having them lumped in here. Would mean a rename if that's the case and they're not CN specific either. --treelo talk 23:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
You're right about the transclusion. It shouldn't appear on any CNS show article, just include it on the main CN article and any of the non-CNS shows. It is confusing, as you mention, because Chop Socky Chooks (eg) is not an "Original Series" (as the title of the template says). Yngvarr (c) 23:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, they are original productions, just not by CNS which is the whole point of this template, adding co-prods just muddies the water in my opinion. Consensus agrees then, separate template for co-prods to be made and placed on named shows and the main Cartoon Network articles for each region. treelo talk 10:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Ed, Edd n Eddy are not produced by CNS, but by AKA Studios. Nonetheless, I kinda see your part. I would just like to see these shows get some mention on a template.--UBracter (talk) 01:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
EEnE is still pretty much a CN product as whilst it wasn't made there, it is wholly controlled by CN just like KND which is also not made by CNS themselves but received huge input from CN. If you want a mention, make a template like suggested, you should be able to find help for template construction. treelo talk 11:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

If there MUST be a Co-production template, it needs to be made right. A lot of these shows listed are not co-productions. The European shows on this template like Spaced Out and Cramp Twins aren't CN Co-Productions, they're made by Cartoon Network Europe, so technically they're made by Cartoon Network, but they're just not originals because they weren't made in the U.S. Cartoon Network has no hand in producing Storm Hawks, so that shouldn't be on there. Also, if Hi Hi Puffy Ami Yumi is on there, than I think that shows like Transformers, Class of 3000, and Out of Jimmy's Head should be moved there too. 69.113.225.164 (talk) 20:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, there must be a co-prod template as they're two near disparate things and we shouldn't conflate them. No, the European shows you name are not made by Cartoon Network Europe as they do not have a specific studio they own, these are either commissioned programmes or ones where they have a signifigant input in production. We're classifying shows made outside the US as not being CN original productions because there is no other studio which uses the Cartoon Network name besides that one, all are usually done by another animation studio. CN do have a production credit for Storm Hawks so it gains it that way as it's no different than George of the Jungle and as far as I know those shows are there except for Transformers: Animated due to it being in the same situation as Ed, Edd n Eddy is. treelo radda 21:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Change it to just Other Cartoon Network Originals

Resolved
 – This was sorted out in the past and it comes up time and time again, no changes to be made. treelo radda 00:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

There were Cartoon Network Originals that weren't produced by Cartoon Network before '03 (Ed, Edd n' Eddy, Mike Lu and Og, etc.) I'm sure that there may be future series that are Cartoon Network Originals that aren't produced by Cartoon Network Studios either. Therefore, the tab labeled "Cartoon Network Studios Originals" should just be changed to "Other Cartoon Network Originals". For example, the upcoming show Secret Saturdays is like Ed Edd n' Eddy; it's a Cartoon Network Original but it isn't produced by Cartoon Network; it's produced by Porchlight Entertainment. The same goes for the Cartoonstitute. Though it was said that most of the shorts were produced in-house, some would be produced out-house too. So I'm changing the "Cartoon Network Studios Originals" tab to "Other Cartoon Network Original". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.225.164 (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Just so you know, don't change it and then come to discuss it. We're considering Cartoon Network original productions as those which are fully produced and animated in-house or those which are either produced or animated in-house. Ed, Edd n Eddy, Mike, Lu & Og along with a few others aren't animated by Cartoon Network but are produced there so do count as original productions. Other is vague and this template was designed primarily to show the production division between Hanna-Barbera Studios and Cartoon Network Studios, not to demonstrate what's done there and what's not. You do raise an interesting point but not one which hasn't appeared before and had consensus agree against it. treelo radda 21:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I changed it after I discussed it here...
Anyways, the template the way it reads now would be improper because the Secret Saturdays isn't produced in-house. It's produced and animated at Porchlight Entertainment. But it's a Cartoon Network Original, just like Mike lu and Og, Ed Edd n' Eddy, and a few others. So when it does premiere and you end up adding it to the Cartoon Network Studios tab, it won't make sense because it's not produced by Cartoon Network Studios. Cartoon Network has a hand in producing it, but not the animation or production studio itself. Besides, it is possible for an out-house production to be a CN Original, just the way the Secret Saturdays are, so making it Other would work.
Other isn't too vague, it's as specific as we can get. There's no need to worry about discrepancies with differences between Cartoon Network Studios and Hanna-Barbera because there were no series produced by Hanna-Barbera for Cartoon Network that weren't Cartoon Cartoons. So none of their shows would even be placed in the second tab. We can't say Post 2003 Cartoon Network Originals because there were non-Cartoon Cartoons that were Cartoon Network Originals (i.e) Samurai Jack. I won't change it right now, I'm just saying, it makes sense. 69.113.225.164 (talk) 19:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't like the term "other", just as much as you feel saying all the productions under the CNS banner is incorrect. True, many aren't actually done in most senses by CNS but Cartoon Network and CNS are the same entity as far as discrimination goes. Yeah, could just call the section "Cartoon Network Originals" and be done with it but it's not a solution which works as it could be reckoned that parts of the seperate co-prod template could be merged into this one and then it becomes indiscriminate.
Here's something I want to put forwards, seeing as many series work have a production history resembling a Venn diagramm how about a fourth section? Keep the CNS originals section as is but have a separate one for the out-house batch though others doesn't specify why they're considered others in any way (which is the issue I have with the term) and dilutes just what is and isn't correct for the template which brings me back to the unnecessarily large navbox issue because there's no defined rules. Hmm, another one, maybe a separate template? I'd like to see if we can find a solution that still keeps a very specific ruleset for inclusion and allows for the out-house originals to be called that without using a non-word such as "other". treelo radda 20:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, here's the thing. Don't change it, if you simply post here that you are going to change it. There was a lengthy discussion about this some time ago. Some of the discussion is here. Changing it, even after you tell us you're going to change it, does not help. Discuss first. As for the actual matter at hand, I'll formulate my own opinion shortly, because the issue is not cut-and-dry. Yngvarr (c) 21:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

If I could please interject, I think we should just call it "Cartoon Network Originals", because they aren't really Cartoon Cartoons, since the channel stopped using that moniker, but all the shows there were commissioned and produced just for Cartoon Network. Shows like Codename: Kids Next Door; Ed, Edd n Eddy, and The Secret Saturdays were/are all produced out-house, but are still CN Originals. So just call the tabs Cartoon Network Originals and call it a day. And you can put "The Secret Saturdays" in Co-Productions because it isn't a co-production. Like EEnE and KND, it was produced completely out-house and only for Cartoon Network.--UBracter (talk) 23:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Odd, almost the exact same argument made before and with the same non-terms. Anyway, nobody has given one good reason for changing it. As I said before, it's all to do with production credits and how a handful of shows aren't labelled right, I'll agree that not everyone of the shows is CNS produced, however we should have a Cartoon Cartoon section as just balling some 30 shows up into one simple little category shows we don't give a damn and might as well push it to TfD. Now, what I will think is right is calling the CNS section just CN on its own as there is no collective name as there is with the CCs but not if it's one person using two separate identities to votestack. But it's not upto me but upto a consensus to agree on something so I'll let Yng and anyone else weigh in also. treelo radda 23:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Right now, I just don't care. I'm a little annoyed. UBracter obviously saw my change, and changed it back with no attempts at explanation. This not a case of a newbie, or someone just learning the ropes, but UBracter has been here long enough to understand how the process works. If he (?) was unwilling to discuss the change, then I really need to recommend that he enables "edit summaries" and start to use them. This whole discussion regarding "original" versus "co-production" is effectively going nowhere. Yngvarr (c) 23:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

That's my feeling too and the reason why I'm thinking our anon and UBracter might be the same person. This discussion isn't going anywhere and I'm going to have to draw a line under this as it's completely useless and mainly semantics anyway. We have a cryptic series setup and I know it's complex but let's not make a big deal out of one word. I'm sticking by the criteria I drew up given I spent a long time working it out and doubt I need to be told it's wrong when it been working fine up until someone made a stink over nothing. treelo radda 00:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I didn't actually think about checking the discussion thread when I saw that "The Secret Saturdays" were removed. I deeply sorry.--UBracter (talk) 00:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, was wondering what you were upto then Yng. Fair mistake though but it isn't a co-prod to my knowledge. treelo radda 00:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Secret Saturdays

I moved it from the "Co-Productions" template and back to this one, since the show isn't a co-production, and it also hasn't premiered yet. We can figure out where to put it when it premieres later. Agreed?--UBracter (talk) 19:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

No. When it airs, it moves into the same section as the currently airing shows. When Cartoonstitute starts airing, then we'll start thinking about possible alterations. For now though, that discussion is closed. treelo radda 20:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The Secret Saturdays is a co-production. Its by Porchlight Entertainment not Cartoon Network Studios. User: Lamborghini man December 22, 2008 2:12 pm —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC).

Adventure Time

It's been picked up for a series, but some people are skeptical of putting it up just yet, at least not until an official word. Fred Seibert did say it, but Thurop Van Orman also mentioned it on his Deviant Art Page. If I can get the link I'll put it up. 69.113.225.164 (talk) 12:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, neither of those people can be used as a reliable source. We know or assume at least that it's been picked up but we have nothing better to go on than "Well, Fred Seibert said it has so it must be true". Heck, even Van Orman got that info from Seibert so this isn't for me much better than rumour right now. Not doubting Fred's word, would rather have a real source. treelo radda 12:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Alright, good enough. 69.113.225.164 (talk) 13:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It has been said on the official Animation Guild Blog. --UBracter (talk) 23:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Which is as irrelevant now as it was back in August, every single source I found (including Local 839) led back to Fred Seibert mentioning it and I'm waiting for someone who didn't get it from Seibert's blog post that it's going to happen. treelo radda 10:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
[1] From this recent link (made November 2008) from the show's production blog, you can see that it's now in production for Cartoon Network, and it has been updated several times since the blog's own announcement. [2] Also, creator Pendelton Ward wrote on his own website about the show being picked up by Cartoon Network back in September. [3] --UBracter (talk) 01:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Huh, a good few months late but I'm satisfied with the sourcing even if the whole concept is barely good enough for a short. treelo radda 01:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Out of Jimmy's Head and Star Wars (2003)

I moved both of these shows here. These shows are Cartoon Network Studios orignals. They both have the Cartoon Network Studios logo at the end credits. Which means they are Cartoon Network Studios orignals. Every Cartoon Network Show that has this logo means its an original. I would like to discuss why the two shows above, mainly Out of Jimmy's Head, are being considered co-productions when it's clearly that they're not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamborghini man (talk • contribs) 19:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

There's a lot of discussion regarding this on this talkpage and the co-prods talkpage, some of which explains why they're where they are. Production logos don't mean all that much, please don't use that as the sole means by which you base your argument. All this does make me wonder if rejiggling both templates around might be a better bet as an original/co-prod split keeps coming up as a bad thing so I'm reckoning it might be just that. Do you have any suggestions for how to redo these templates seeing as the current split is open to wild conjecture? treelo radda 19:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
As Treelo points out, there has been discussion here and on Template talk:Cartoon Network co-productions. Rather than bring the issues to the talk page, you decided to instigate a flat-out edit war. So right now, while the ashes settle, I'll recommend that User:Lamborghini Man bring some reasonable argument for or against. I don't agree with using the logo as a form of identification. I think that type of verification would not pass muster at WP:RS. Yngvarr (t) (c) 21:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


The Secret Saturdays?

Um, I'm just wondering why The Secret Saturdays is on this template when it's not a co-production. Where's the logic in that? --UBracter (talk) 16:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It was moved here in error I reckon, feel free to move it back though. treelo radda 17:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Back to the "Upcoming shows" tab in "Cartoon Network Original Series"? Okay, but where do we put it when it premieres? I was just thinking we could remake the template like the one for Nicktoons. All the cartoons that aired after the Cartoon Cartoon era could be divided up by the year it premiered. --UBracter (talk) 19:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
You've already placed it back so no problems to me. Where it goes isn't up for discussion here. treelo radda 20:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I placed it back to Co-Productions. The Secret Saturdays is NOT a cartoon network studios original. Its Porchlight Entertainment. Lamborghini man 10:43 PM Eastern, December 19, 2008.
Hm, checking things over it does look like the rules aren't as clean cut as I reckoned and you do have a point. I still reverted you because it's just BRD procedure, if you want to help clear up where each series should be or suggest an alternate way I'd be happy to hear it. treelo radda 13:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay, since The Secret Saturdays is co-produced with Porchlight Entertainment, wouldn't be logical for this show to be placed in the Cartoon Network Co-Productions section, just like Hi Hi Puffy Ami Yumi and Out of Jimmy's Head (Renegade Animation). Also, how about a section for Cartoon Network Original shows that aren't produced/animated by Cartoon Network Studios? Shows like "Courage the Cowardly Dog", "Ed, Eddy, n Eddy", "Codename: Kids Next Door", Sheep in the Big City, "The Secret Saturdays"
Dude, seriously, drop it. We've been through this. treelo radda 03:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I know and I apologize for what I did before. But I just thought of a new idea that you may like. Its in the WikiProject Cartoon Network discussion. Lamborghini man 3:07, 9 March 2009
Ok, here is what I'd like to suggest. I know you're anxious to do "stuff", but IMO, the templates and production is the least of the issues. If you are willing to try to improve things, I can name one article for you to keep your eye on, which desperately needs multiple eyes. The same policies/guidelines/issues apply, tho, as across not not WP:TOON, but all of wikipedia: verifiability, reliable sources, consensus, etc. Would you be willing to work with us in that manner? Yngvarr (t) (c) 15:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Sure. No Problem. Lamborghini man 06:40, 9 March 2009

George of the Jungle & Storm Hawks

I have removed these two shows from this section. There isn't any evidence that these are Cartoon Network Co-Productions. There's nothing in the credits of these two shows that states anything about Cartoon Network. George of the Jungle is a Teletoon Original/Fresh TV. And Storm Hawks is Nerd Corps Entertainment. Again, nothing in the credits that states anything about or related to Cartoon Network. They are not produced by Cartoon Network. There is no evidence that they are. I removed them from this category to help clear things up. ----Lamborghini man • 13:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Cartoon Network does have a hand in Storm Hawks and George of the Jungle much in the same way it helped produce The Cramp Twins, sure it might not seem like it to you but that is how it is right now. Let's not have more of this baseless reasoning as to why certain things need to be here and some elsewhere, you're not helping. treelo radda 14:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Out of Jimmy's Head.

I do realize that this show is a Co-Production, I apologize for saying otherwise before, but this show is also a Cartoon Network Studios Original as well. So I was wondering if this show should be in both Co-Productions and Cartoon Network Studios Originals. Technically, this show is both of those. ----Lamborghini man 13:48, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to figure sticking with the co-prod method is best in this case, it's not as clear cut as the rest of the shows and a show should really be located in one template at one time, that's why they're split. treelo radda 14:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Not CNS

The Secret Saturdays has no production completed at Cartoon Network Studios. All is done at Porchlight Entertainment. Therefore, I propose the title of that section be renamed simply to Cartoon Network Originals in order for it to encompass all non-CNS produced CN originals. 69.113.225.164 (talk) 23:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

It's in the same boat as Ed, Edd n Eddy and probably should be CN originals over CNS originals but I don't know if it's worth a rename or a split based on the two shows not being produced in full at CNS. treelo radda 23:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. JJ98 (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Template:Cartoon Network navbox → Template:Cartoon Network — This is a navbox. This template Cartoon Network redirects to WikiProject Cartoon Network. The template should be renamed from Cartoon Network navbox to Cartoon Network. JJ98 (talk) 06:41, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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