Template:Did you know nominations/Scandinavian Scotland

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Victuallers (talk) 21:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Scandinavian Scotland[edit]

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... that Scandinavian influence in Scotland was probably at its height in the mid 11th century during the time of Earl Thorfinn Sigurdsson "the Mighty", who attempted to create a single domain stretching from Shetland to Man?

Created/expanded by Ben MacDui (talk). Self nom at 12:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

At 225 characters that hook is just too long and there is no direct link to the image. So I suggest as an alternative, trying both to keep part of the topic of your suggested hook and include the excellent image.

ALT1 ... that Scandinavian influence in Scotland was probably at its height in the 11th century during the time of Thorfinn Sigurdsson "the Mighty", and is still evident today (modern festival pictured)? Mikenorton (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Goodness - I made it <200 ex spaces, but I am more than happy with your succinct ALT. Ben Mac Dui 12:48, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately the spaces are included (see Wikipedia:Did you know#DYK rules). Mikenorton (talk) 12:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah - my bad. Ben Mac Dui 13:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

... that Scandinavian influence in Scotland, still evident today, was probably at its height during the time of Thorfinn the Mighty? - This is a little more succinct. Note that I did not included (whatever pictured) as I don't think the image is good at 100px. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Fine by me and if words are an issue you could just make it "Thorfinn the Mighty". I do however like the image - for me its lack of sharpness suggests something from long ago. Have reviewed St Eugrad's Church, Llaneugrad. Ben Mac Dui 08:16, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:19, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Hook: ALT2 only. Referenced and interesting, short enough.

Article: Long enough, new enough. Geography is nearly entirely unreferenced. "Whatever the historical details, it seems likely that Orkney and Shetland were being rapidly absorbed into Norse culture by this time." is unreferenced and comes across as OR. So is "and as a foreign invasion rather than as a key part of a mutlti-cultural polity." "Essentially a variant of the earldom hypothesis, there is little archaeological evidence in its favour, although it would be perplexing if the extensive Viking incursions on the Irish coasts were not supported" reads like editorializing; who's opinion is this?

Summary:

Needs work for tone issues. Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm - I am sure there was a time when having 182 individual references would have been acceptable for a DYK, but improving editorials standards are to be welcomed.

"Geography is nearly entirely unreferenced" - various Atlas refs added.

"Whatever the historical details, it seems likely that Orkney and Shetland were being rapidly absorbed into Norse culture by this time." This is not at all controversial as a statement. All I am doing is bringing together the views of the historical purists (who reject the literal truth of the sagas) and those who are happy to use them as indicative sources. Both are in agreement and I have added a Note about this.

"Essentially a variant of the earldom hypothesis, there is little archaeological evidence in its favour, although it would be perplexing if the extensive Viking incursions on the Irish coasts were not supported" reads like editorializing; who's opinion is this? Well it's clearly Ó Corráin's and I don't think anyone seriously doubts that there were Viking bases in Scotland - the argument is more the about how organised they were and what Lochlann meant at the time. The problem with this and a great deal else in relation to this subject, is the chronic lack of primary source evidence from within rather than without Scandinavian Scotland. I'll have a look at Barret again asap. - Now Done.

"and as a foreign invasion rather than as a key part of a multi-cultural polity." Crawford writes: "The diversity of evidence about the Vikings in Scotland is what this book has been concerned with; that diversity provides an impressive witness to these peoples and to their distinctive contribution to the ethnic and cultural mix in the medieval kingdom of Scotland." and I have amended the ref to include that thought.

Re "tone" - I fear this is a consequence of the many different ideas and indeed conflicting evidence. I have done a minor copy edit. Ben Mac Dui 20:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Geography section looks much better, but the last paragraph is uncited. (DYK standards are 1 reference minimum for every paragraph)

Even when the para is sentence that provides an introduction to material that is discussed in detail later on? It's done. Ben Mac Dui 08:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Other than that looks quite impressive. I'll do a paraphrasing check later, and then there should be little to do but wait for promotion. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:18, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

AGF on paraphrasing, sources are almost entirely offline. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:27, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. I learned some time ago that if you write long articles based on web sources its not long before you end up having to find new ones due to link rot. Books don't die. Ben Mac Dui 08:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

ALT2 Good to go, AGF on offline sources. I'm not especially fond of the image, but if the one who builds preps likes it, let it be. Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)