Template:Did you know nominations/Hell's Angel (documentary)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:31, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Hell's Angel (documentary)[edit]

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Statue of Mother Teresa

~~... that Mother Teresa was no saint according to the 1994 documentary Hell’s Angel?~~

Alt1 ... that the documentary Hell’s Angel claims that Mother Teresa (statue pictured) was a demagogue and an obscurantist? [Source: “In a godless and cynical age, it may be inevitable that people will seek to praise the self-effacing, the altruistic, and the pure in heart. But only a complete collapse of our critical faculties can explain the illusion that such a person is manifested in the shape of a demagogue, an obscurantist, and a servant of earthly powers.” [1]23:32]

5x expanded by Milkshake60201 (talk). Self-nominated at 20:57, 2 February 2017 (UTC).

Article is more than five times expanded, well cited throughout, neutrally written, and no copyvio found. Image is in public domain. Hook is cited to online source which is reliable in this context, but it says something different from the hook, which it interprets it in a way which isn't cited. For such a challenging statement it would be better to use something actually said in the documentary, such as "Mother Teresa was a demagogue and an obscurantist". As you are a new editor here, Milkshake60201, I'm supposing QPQ is not needed. Moonraker (talk) 08:54, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing this article, Moonraker! I agree with you. You could make an argument, and maybe you are, that since MT has been cannonized as a saint at this point, the idea of what a "saint" is now includes such previously unsaintly character flaws. In any case, please update the hook as you suggest (or similar): "... that Mother Teresa was a demagogue and an obscurantist according to the 1994 documentary Hell’s Angel ...?" Thanks also for telling me about the QPQ as I had overlooked that very sensible rule. Yes, it looks like I am exempt for now, but I will put it on my list to review some DYKs later this month. Milkshake60201 (talk) 18:25, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Alt1 resolves the one problem found above, so this is ready to go with that new hook. NB, the image is public domain. Moonraker (talk) 21:17, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I replaced the wikilinks in Alt1 with quotes, because these are the actual words used, and because words in quotes should not be linked according to the MoS. I've also struck the original hook as it was not approved. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:23, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

With the greatest respect, BlueMoonset, you have a circular argument here. The quotation marks aren't needed, as we're simply saying what claim was made, without a direct quotation, which is why you need two sets of quotation marks around individual words, whereas the wikilinks are really useful, as most people have no idea what either a demagogue or an obscurantist is. I've reinstated the links, shall we let the user promoting the nomination decide which is better? Moonraker (talk) 00:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with letting the promoter make the decision. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:21, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I think that Moonraker's rework of the hook (with links), and the corresponding logic, makes the most sense. Thank you both for your efforts. Milkshake60201 (talk) 17:07, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

@Moonraker: per Rule H2, you cannot approve your own hook. Another reviewer will have to review this. Personally, I find the phrasing of the hook distasteful. Rather than state that Mother Teresa was a demagogue, etc., according to the book, I would say that the book claims she was a demagogue, etc. This would also put the bold link at the beginning of the hook, which seems to be the preference. Yoninah (talk) 00:02, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@Yoninah:, what you say is of course in the guidelines, thank you. Milkshake60201 is a new user and failed to propose an Alt in the usual way, and no doubt it's my fault. On your "distasteful" point, I don't see an awful lot of difference in the degree of distastefulness, but I see no harm in turning it around. Would you please be kind enough to review the Alt yourself or else make another suggestion for resolving the problem? Moonraker (talk) 02:18, 12 February 2017 (UTC)