The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 13:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
The hooks don't use this picture but it still looks cool.
... that the Hudson's Bay Company recruited the Danish explorer Erland Erlandson from a British prison ship?
ALT1:... that Canadian historians wonder whether explorer Erland Erlandson robbed his boss's bank?
ALT2:... that Dano-Canadian explorer Erland Erlandson may have robbed a bank but left the money to the Toronto General Hospital?
ALT3:... that the Danish carpenter Erland Erlandson became the first European to cross the Labrador Peninsula because his guides didn't follow his instructions?
ALT3a:... that, because his guides didn't follow his instructions, the Danish carpenter Erland Erlandson became the first European to cross the Labrador Peninsula?
ALT4:... that the Hudson's Bay Company promoted Erland Erlandson quickly for being a good servant but balked at making him management because he was Danish?
Comment: You only need to review the one hook you like best. Kindly avoid adding extraneous links to the hooks; we're here to promote new/improve articles, not to send more traffic to Canadian historiography or HBC, and the curious can click through and learn sth about the article that has been worked on.
Created by LlywelynII (talk). Self-nominated at 20:49, 22 August 2019 (UTC).
Overall: ALT2 and ALT3/3a approved. Image would be appropriate with ALT3/3a. I have struck ALT0, ALT1 and ALT4 because they are not fully supported by the article or the sources (ALT0: he was held in a prison ship; he was recruited the following year after the war ended; ALT1: the source does not say who suspected him of robbing a bank; ALT4: the article and source say because he was "a foreigner and raised from the ranks.", not just because he was Danish.) In ALT2, I have changed "donated" to "left" ("bequeathed" would also be fine), as "donated" suggests to me that he gave it during his life, while 'left' or 'bequeathed' make clear that it was after he died. I'm not sure about "may have robbed a bank" - that is ambiguous, and could mean "he did it, but anyway he gave the money away" or "it's not known if he robbed a bank or not". Maybe that's OK in a hook. ALT3 is fine - I have changed the order as in ALT3a, so it's clear that he was the first European to cross it, not just the first of the Europeans whose guides didn't obey them ... but perhaps it's better to have the subject upfront. RebeccaGreen (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I came by to promote this, but I don't see him being credited as crossing the Labrador Peninsula in any of the sources. Each source gives a different route that he crossed, but none of them say the Labrador Peninsula. Yoninah (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi Yoninah, they don't specifically say "crossed the Labrador Peninsula", but the Dictionary of Canadian Biography says "The party left Fort Chimo on 6 April 1834 ... On 22 June they reached the western end of tidal Lake Melville (in the area of present-day Goose Bay, Labrador) and Erlandson thus became the first European to travel overland from Hudson Strait to the Atlantic coast." From the Hudson Strait to the Atlantic Coast is south-east across the Labrador Peninsula. The Woman Who Mapped Labrador source says he went from Fort Chimo to the settlement of North West River (which is at the western end of tidal Lake Melville). The North American Exploration source says he went from Fort Chimo to Lake Melville and Hamilton Inlet on the Labrador Coast. This article describes how Erlandson and his guides went from Fort Chimo ... "followed the Whale River to Lakes Petitsikapau and Michikamau ... Passing through a series of small lakes to the Naskaupi and Grand Lake, they reached Goose Bay—the deepest inlet of Esquimaux Bay (now Groswater Bay)—on June 22nd." The hook could of course say "the first to cross from the Hudson Strait to the Atlantic Coast" or "the first to cross from Fort Chimo to North West River", but no one is going to know where they are - especially the latter. They are places on different ends of the Labrador Peninsula, so going from one to the other means crossing it. I did not feel that this was WP:SYNTH or WP:OR - they are places on a map. However, if you're not happy with it, perhaps we should ask the nominator for other suggestions? RebeccaGreen (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi again Yoninah, a quick google shows that John McLean (explorer) has been mistakenly described as "the first white man to cross the Labrador peninsula from Ungava Bay to Hamilton Inlet" [1], so following that idea, perhaps a tweak like one of these would solve the problem?
ALT3b: ... that because his guides didn't follow his instructions, the Danish carpenter Erland Erlandson became the first European to cross the Labrador Peninsula from the Hudson Strait to the Atlantic Coast?
ALT3c: ... that because his guides misled him, the Danish carpenter Erland Erlandson became the first European to cross the Labrador Peninsula from the Hudson Strait to the Atlantic Coast?
- using another way to say "didn't follow his instructions" to make the hook a bit shorter in ALT3c. RebeccaGreen (talk) 01:51, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi. Even if you choose not to reconstruct the route or to insist on the word 'Labrador' appearing in a source, which is doable but time consuming, I fail to see why any of that is a reason to hold up the nomination. Ms Green didn't need to check all the hooks but apparently did anyway. Just use the verified ALT2. — LlywelynII 03:54, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
What are you saying? You provided a list of hooks and we are trying to verify them. RebeccaGreen simply wrote down all the sources that I checked. I prefer to use the "guides misled him" hook and will consider Rebecca's alts shortly. Yoninah (talk) 09:27, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
It would be good if another reviewer could check ALT3b and ALT3c, tweaked by me after Yoninah's feedback. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Coming here to comment and not (yet) to review, but ALT3b and ALT3c both read a bit too long or too winding. Is there a way to make the crossing wording snappier? Narutolovehinata5tccsdnew 00:12, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, it was snappier when it just said the first to cross the Labrador Peninsula ....
ALT3d: ... that Erland Erlandson became the first European to cross the Labrador Peninsula from the Hudson Strait to the Atlantic Coast when his guides misled him?
ALT3e: ... that Erland Erlandson became the first European to travel overland from the Hudson Strait to the Atlantic Coast when his guides misled him?
ALT3f: ... that Erland Erlandson was the first European to cross the Labrador Peninsula from the Hudson Strait to the Atlantic Coast?
I don't think it's an issue to have more than one blue link here considering these geographic locations may not be familiar to all audiences (at least with Labrador and Hudson; I'd assume many readers don't even know they're in Canada and would only know from context because of Atlantic Coast). Would it also be a good idea to highlight the "misleading" part more? That actually sounds interesting too and adds to the flavor of being the "first". Narutolovehinata5tccsdnew 13:31, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi Narutolovehinata5, well, that was in the earlier versions, ALT3, ALT3a and ALT3b. What about:
I think that's okay, but I was thinking of something closer to ALT1c (i.e. mentioning the "misleading" first), as it gives contrast and makes the hook arguably more interesting. I'd like to hear the nominator's thoughts first, though. But just to make it clear: I'd suggest against not linking the places as not everyone is well-versed in Canadian geography, and while I understand the intent of wanting to promote Canadian history more, I'm not sure why it's considered to be a bad idea to not also promote Canadian geography while doing so. Narutolovehinata5tccsdnew 23:18, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't know if LlywelynII has any preference, apart from not wanting bluelinks ... RebeccaGreen (talk) 01:45, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Narutolovehinata5, it can be counterproductive to distract from the nominated article by putting in unnecessary extra links to click, since it's easy to get side-tracked by one and never actually get to the nominated article. That's always a tension in building a hook. If people don't find what they need in the nominated article, they can easily click on the links there. For this hook, isn't it enough to know that a never-before-crossed peninsula (by Europeans) between two named points (one definitely familiar) was done because the person the article is about was misled or taken on a trip he didn't want, without including the links here? I'm assuming ALT2 has not been selected due to promoters also being unsure about the "may have robbed a bank" wording that the reviewer highlighted. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
It is a pity that this nomination has taken so long, considering that we are talking about trivial variations in hook wording. I am approving all the recent hooks but selecting ALT3d, on the basis that it is factually correct and will be acceptable to the nominator. Otherwise relying on the original review by RebeccaGreen. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:14, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
ALT2 and ALT3/3a approved. Image would be appropriate with ALT3/3a.
Hi, I came by to promote this, but I don't see him being credited as crossing the Labrador Peninsula in any of the sources. Each source gives a different route that he crossed, but none of them say the Labrador Peninsula. Yoninah (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
It would be good if another reviewer could check ALT3b and ALT3c, tweaked by me after Yoninah's feedback. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
It is a pity that this nomination has taken so long, considering that we are talking about trivial variations in hook wording. I am approving all the recent hooks but selecting ALT3d, on the basis that it is factually correct and will be acceptable to the nominator. Otherwise relying on the original review by RebeccaGreen. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:14, 27 September 2019 (UTC)