Talk:Xhemal Pasha Zogu

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Requested move 25 September 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Xhemal Pasha Zogu. SilkTork (talk) 19:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jemal Pasha Zogolli → Xhemal Pasha Zogu – The 4th page moved by User:Seemitfe without justification or consensus. The previous name, Xhemal Pasha Zogu, is in use far more than this one. Djks1 (talk) 16:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. Havelock Jones (talk) 08:19, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Google books results:

Therefore, I propose moving the page back to Xhemal Pasha Zogu. Djks1 (talk) 16:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to Xhemal Pasha Zogolli. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:09, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Djks1, Ahmet Q., AjaxSmack, Bes-ART. I am looking to do this move request, but I am unclear on which name should be used. There is one source used in the article, and that gives the name " Djemal Pasha Mati". The lead says: "Xhemal Pasha Zogu ... also known as Jamal Pasha or Jamal Pasha Zogolli". So we have four versions of the name. The most support in this request (2) is for "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli", but that is a name which doesn't appear in the article. The research above indicates that "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" is the most commonly used name, and that is the name that appears in the article, but there is a challenge to that name under WP:Commonname "Ambiguous or inaccurate names". This is not an ambiguous name - "Jamal Pasha Zogolli" or "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" refers to only one person, nor is it inaccurate if those are the names by which he was known. What we use on Wikipedia is the name which is most commonly used in reliable sources. That is the name most likely to be used when people are doing a search for the person on Wikipedia, and is the most reassuring name for readers to arrive at. If they are looking for "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" and arrive at "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli" or "Jemal Pasha Zogolli", they might be unsure they have arrived at the right article. Logic and our own guidance suggests that "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" is the appropriate name, but I can't move it to that as that is not the current consensus in this move request. Please look again, and either confirm that "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" is the name it should be moved to, or explain more clearly, using reliable sources, why "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli" is preferred. Remember we are not influenced by official names or the subject's (or subject's family's) preference. We decide by most common use in reliable sources, particularly recent reliable sources. SilkTork (talk) 08:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    In my opinion, the most valuable name is Xhemal Pasha Zogolli because his son (later King of Albania) removed the Turkish suffix "olli" after 1920. There are plenty of sources that support this, such as this [1]. Bes-ARTTalk 09:24, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please read Wikipedia:Official names and WP:COMMONNAME. Official names or names that the family prefer are not part of our criteria for the article name; we use the names most commonly used by reliable sources. What the subject's son prefers is not something we take into account when considering which name to select for a Wikipedia article. The discussion here should focus on which name is most commonly used in reliable sources for this person. I was unable to read the source you linked - however, your comment that the Turkish suffix "olli" was removed would surely support "Xhemal Pasha Zogu"? SilkTork (talk) 16:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know WP guidelines very well and you just need to google search the names (minus others) and you'll see that Xhemal Pasha Zogolli its used in almost all literature and other reliable sources. One cannot change but its own lastname. Noone can change his dead father, let alone garndfather or other ancestors. Their original surname is thought to be Zogaj (a common lastname among Northern Albanians), but Ahmet Zogu change it because was more simple and more Albanian sound. Bes-ARTTalk 17:23, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am sure you do understand WP guidelines. However, the situation we have here is that the nomination above provided convincing evidence that Xhemal Pasha Zogu is the name most used in reliable sources. That nomination was stalled because of a claim of the use of an official name, which is not part of our guideline. There is now a claim that "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli its used in almost all literature and other reliable sources". Please provide those sources rather than asserting they exist or asking me (or anyone else) to find them. The onus is now on you to prove that "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli" is used in more reliable sources than "Xhemal Pasha Zogu". If you are unable to do that, and there are no more arguments one way or the other then I'll have to close this move request as no consensus and it will remain at the existing name until a new move request is made. SilkTork (talk) 17:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Basically every author who has written about the family uses the surname Zogolli for ancestors. So this is not about WP:COMMONNAME because it does not make sense, this is about a person who has changed his last name but to his ancestors are left with the old last name. There is also no way to have a disagreement when the proposer himself agrees to use Zogolli. Research does not tell exactly about one or the other because it is comprehensive. Both Zogu and Zogolli are mentioned in the same book, and it is normal for the results to be higher. If others will have to vote then wait a little longer and you are free to close it with one or the other but not leave it as it is as long as it was not moved thought an request but as seen, by a member who has made moves not based on any of the guidelines Bes-ARTTalk 21:25, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the links, Bes-ART. I have taken a look, and they do confirm that Zog I of Albania changed the family name from Zogolli to Zogu. Sadly, that doesn't help us decide what to call the article, because names do change over time, and what we use is the most current name and most widely used name. Given above we have this:
  • "Xhemal Pasha Zogu", 3,470 results (previous name)
  • "Xhemal Pasha" "Zogu", 3,550 results (previous name)
  • "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli", 208 results
  • "Xhemal Pasha" "Zogolli", 227 results

Which gives a result showing that "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" is used over 15 times more often than "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli". If that discrepancy can be satisfactorily explained, then I'll move the article to "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli", but as it stands I'm looking at a consensus for the Zogolli name which doesn't meet Wikipedia criteria, so I can't do the move. We don't decide article names by what is or is not the most ethnic, most realistic, most official, most historic, etc - we name articles by what most independent reliable sources use. We do not involve ourselves in or takes sides in debates - we are not here to influence a decision, merely to record it. Now, if what you are saying is that there is a debate about the name, which may be ethnic in origin, and you have reliable sources which discus the name debate, then that can be mentioned in the article. But that is separate from how we name the article. We name the article not on a debate that we agree with, but on the name that is most used in reliable sources; which, from the evidence provided above by the nominator, User:Djks1, is "Xhemal Pasha Zogu". I'm quite willing to keep this move request open as there may be aspects to this which I am not yet understanding. It would be helpful if other participants could give their views as well, particularly those, such as User:Djks1, who changed from "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" to "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli" after your comment. SilkTork (talk) 07:46, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SilkTork, I initially proposed moving to Xhemal Pasha Zogu. However, the surname "Zogu" was not in use until 1922, when the son, Ahmet, changed it, which is 11 years after Xhemal's death. Xhemal was called "Zogolli" (a Turkified version of the Albanian name, probably) during his lifetime and for 11 years after his death. So, despite "Zogu" being more commonly used due to his famous son, I belive it would fall under what I quoted above, Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. I assume a source would be needed to prove that "Zogu" is not the accurate name. But again, would Wikipedia accept naming an article with a name that the person never legally used and was never changed to in his lifetime? I wouldn't know. Djks1 (talk) 13:48, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input Djks1. The name is not inaccurate because it is the name that is used by most reliable sources. It was a name change made by his own son. See Alexander the Great - his legal and official name, and the one used during his lifetime was Alexander III of Macedon, and that is how the article starts in the lead, giving his more common name of "Alexander the Great" later. He was first named "the Great" by Quintus Curtius Rufus several hundred years after his death, and that name is now how he is mostly known in the West, so that is the name we use here on the English Wikipedia. Though on the Macedonian Wikipedia he is known as Alexander of Macedonia: [11] So, yes, Wikipedia does use names for various subjects, including people, that are not "legal" or "official". See WP:Official names for more information on this. Unless there is a rationale that fits in with Wikipedia criteria to move this article to "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli" then I can't in good conscience do it. I can either close this as no consensus, and you folks can ask again, and you may find an admin more sympathetic to your cause, or you folks can change your !votes to "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" and I'll move it to that name. Just let me know. SilkTork (talk) 14:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I understand the rational. I am fine with either Xhemal Pasha Zogu or Xhemal Pasha Zogolli. Either is preferable to the current name ("Jemal"), which is barely even used. Djks1 (talk) 14:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK Djks1, if Ahmet Q., AjaxSmack, or Bes-ART (or anyone else) raise no objections in the next 48 hours I'll move the article to Xhemal Pasha Zogu. SilkTork (talk) 17:03, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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