Talk:Women in Christianity/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Neutrality?

I just came across this article searching for an abstract on Christian/ Biblical views on the role of women, so I obviously don't consider myself an expert in this field. Nevertheless, I think I should make a couple of comments about this article:

a) there are a number problems with referencing here. Some portions of the article seem to be exclusively sourced (in a matter-of-fact tone) with bible references. While the bible can of course be used as a ref as to what's in the bible, it is far from being a WP:RS on what actually happened.
b) this article seems to have a very strong focus on modern and contemporary interpretations of the role of women in Christendom, and a further focus on making a case for egalitarian interpretations.
c) Even I, as a non-Christian non-expert can clearly see that there's a strong bias here. Apart from several bible citations (like the ones two sections above on this talk page), the tenth commandment makes it very obvious that the writers of the bible (allegedly god) considered women to be lower than men - so much so that the last commandment shows that all 10 are directed at men, and that this was considered so self-explanatory that it didn't even have to be pointed out specifically. Yet this page doesn't even mention the 10th commandment. While there are a few quotes in that direction later in the article, far greater weight is given to such statements as that Jesus was "treating women with compassion, grace and dignity", even though this doesn't automatically suggest equality.

I don't mention this to take sides in a debate on what the contemporary Christian view on women ought to be. I mention it because - as of now - I don't think this is close to an encyclopedic, NPOV article about the subject of 'Women in Christianity'. Malc82 (talk) 18:47, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Deaconesses in the Early Church

Maybe I missed it but there seems to be no mention on the female deaconate here. In the Early Church and during the Byzantine Empire, there were women deacons. There were 40 deaconesses at the Hagia Sophia alone!(source: http://guidesofistanbul.com/eng/hagia_sophia.htm) In Greece, the female diaconate was restored in 2004. There are also women deacons in the Orthodox churches of Russia and Japan. You can get more info on Deaconesses in the Orthodox church at this page http://orthodoxwiki.org/Deaconess Ladycascadia (talk) 22:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Wow - just wow

"Despite these emerging theological differences, the majority of Christians regard women with dignity and respect [citation needed]." There you have it, the vast majority of Christians don't regard women with dignity and respect! Perhaps this should be rephrased or removed entirely - stating that it's doubtful that this is true is pretty much a backhanded insult to Christians. Hardly NPOV. - 114.76.227.0 (talk) 23:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Revisions to Lead

"While women were an important component of the original Christian movement, a male hierarchy was established over the early church, in which women could not be ordained to the priesthood and ascend to senior positions like Pope and Patriarch. "

This sentence has significant POV issues. (1) It implies that the "male hierarchy" contradicts the practice of the original Christian movement, which is heavily disputed. (2) "could not" is more POV than simply "were not" which is a straight statement of fact. (3) There is no need to mention positions like "Pope and Patriarch" (especially as no citation is provided and it therefore constitutes OR) -- to state that women were not ordained to the priesthood is sufficient.Tonicthebrown (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tonic. I agree that keeping it snappy is better, and think your rewordings are sensible enough. My references to the importance of women in early christianity seeks to acknowledge such stories as Jesus and Martha, Mary Magdalene etc and the regular reference I am finding to a "majority" of early christians being women.Ozhistory (talk) 14:36, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Hi. The problem I perceive is that 2 issues are being mixed together. Firstly, the prominence and participation of women in the church; secondly, the question of male leadership and female subordination (gender roles). The prominence of women in the early church does not argue for or against any particular theory of gender roles. It is simply a fact of history. What would be significant (and therefore worth contrasting with the male heirarchy) is if any of these women occupied positions of authority. Tonicthebrown (talk) 09:57, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Women in Heaven

Are Women equal or subordinate to men IN HEAVEN OR NEW EARTH? I don't care about the ontological, because I understand that much, but are women and men equal in OTHER ways? Do they have the same roles? Are women to submit or obey? Does the hierarchy STILL exist in Heaven between woman and man, just as Christ is lower in the hierarchy than God the Father? Can I receive a DIRECT answer to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.197.229 (talk) 20:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Don't know what a theologian would say here, except that Mary is known as Queen of Heaven and that God and the Holy Spirit clearly can't be understood to have gender in the human sense of the term. Also, as I understand the teaching, Jesus is not considered "lower in the hierarchy" but rather is considered "of one being" with the Father and the Spirit.Ozhistory (talk) 02:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Historical content

A lot of useful historical content has recently been added to this article by Ozhistory. However, given that this article is about gender roles (i.e. relationships of authority between men and women), not about the place of women in the church per se, I think this material would be more appropriate (as per WP:SS) under the existing historical article: Women in Church history. When I get a chance, and if there is no objection, I'll look at moving some of the content across.Tonicthebrown (talk) 10:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for drawing Women in Church history to my attention - it think it can certainly be improved by moving some of the historical detail across from our Gender roles article. I also have no objection to you going ahead and trimming material to keep this article focused, provided the article still devotes some space to the breadth of roles played by women within the church - not only the positions of overt authority as occupied by women from the Medieval abbesses and Doctors of the Church in Catholicism, to the Queens of England as Supreme Governors of the Church of England, to modern Generals of the Salvation Army; but also to the various other roles fulfilled by women, particularly religious sisters, for example, in running vast networks of health care facilities and schools. As an aside, I found it interesting to read that John Paul II speaks so much of Christian monarchs in his summaries of the great women of the church in Mulieris Dignitatem. In short, my feeling is that the article must not overplay the "submissive women" and "dominant males" line when seeking to sum up the topic - for this would fail to capture the reality of Christian history - though obviously, the historical absence of women from clerical and episcopal positions warrants major discussion. Good luck with the edit!Ozhistory (talk) 13:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Another problem that I've found with the article is in this quote: 'Others appearing in the texts include Rebekah, the wife of Isaac, who tricked Abraham into blessing her second son as heir;' The obvious problem with this is that Rebekah tricked Isaac into blessing her second son. She did NOT trick Abraham into this. :S 121.223.112.127 (talk) 10:58, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Title change

I think the article is better titled "Women in Christianity." If it provided equal treatment on men and women's gender roles, there would still be room for an article on "Women and Christianity." However, this article focuses on the gender roles of women. Thus, it may as well be called "Women in Christianity". I'll stand by for discussion, since there is overlap with "Women in Church History" either way. If no input after a week, I'll make the change. Airborne84 (talk) 16:05, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Since there has been no discussion, I plan to (NLT tomorrow) change the name, move some of the historical information to Women in Church history while summarizing it here, and provide more coverage of secondary source general discussion of "Christianity and Women".Airborne84 (talk) 09:13, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Woodhead quotes

The following passages were removed from the article as "POV". I don't believe that they are POV when viewed in the context of the article. There are plenty of notes in the article discussing how church and biblical figures promote gender equality. They may be POV by themselves, but balance the article. The below quotes are from a reliable secondary source author and publisher which summarize two important aspects that this article directly concerns. I welcome further discussion. Airborne84 (talk) 15:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Today, gender roles in Christianity are a matter of debate and are seen as problematic by internal and external observers alike. Linda Woodhead states that, "Of the many threats that Christianity has to face in modern times, gender equality is one of the most serious".[1] She notes that "Christianity has traditionally excluded women from positions of power, and often places more emphasis on the connections between divinity and masculinity than divinity and femininity."[2]

Hi, the main issue is that I don't feel this belongs in the lead, which is already long. The previous paragraph already says pretty much the exact same thing about women being excluded from positions. And the first part of the quote ("of the many threats...") is already included verbatim later in the article.

It is POV in the sense that it introduces an opinion. This may be suitable somewhere in the body of the article where it can be balanced against other opinions, but it is not suitable in the lead where there is no alternative opinion presented. Tonicthebrown (talk) 12:21, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. The first passage is listed in the article already elsewhere so I have no further objection to that. Thanks! Airborne84 (talk) 14:11, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Woodhead, Linda (2004). Christianity: A Very Short Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. n.p.
  2. ^ Woodhead, Linda (2004). Christianity: A Very Short Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. n.p.

Title Change Complete

As per discussion above, I changed the title to Women in Christianity. Gender roles suggests that the material in the article should be discussion of women's roles contrasted with men. The current title is broader and more inclusive to allow more information. However, I recommend that much of the historical information be moved/consolidated with Women in Church history, while only being summarized here. Airborne84 (talk) 20:37, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Jemima Wilkinson

Does Jemima Wilkinson count in this category? Since she was fully a priest in Philadelphia during the 1780's, she might be Categorized as both "Women in Christianity" and "Feminist Movement". But I am so unfamiliar with wikipedia.org 's own standards... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yanclae (talk • contribs) 03:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

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Shouldn't this article be called Women and Christianity?

This article is more about the role of women in Christianity and Christianity's comments about women, not specific women who are christian.Dvalentine (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Quotation under Biblical hermeneutics

The quotation in the 4th paragraph under Biblical hermeneutics seems incorrectly punctuated. Ideally, I would get my hands on the source and correct the quotation, but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't stepping on any toes. It seems to need an close quote, but I am unsure of where the cited author's work ends and the editor's words begin. If that cannot be determined, a paraphrase would suffice to eliminate the single open quote in the passage. WordBender22 (talk) 16:47, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I added the necessary quotation mark; however, the paragraph is weak and needs rewriting. I may attempt to clarify the existing points in future edits. I welcome any suggestions. WordBender22 (talk) 20:46, 18 September 2017 (UTC)


Egalitarians Defend Their Views

While researching, I found a point that Egalitarians frequently make when they have to justify their position. I would like to add this information to the Egalitarian view section. The article I would be referencing is by David Basinger, and is titled "Gender roles, Scripture, and science: some clarification". Here is the citation for it:

Basinger, D. (1988). Gender roles, Scripture, and science: some clarification. Christian Scholar’s Review, 17(3), 241–253.

WordBender22 (talk) 22:24, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Added a brief segment that adds to the logic used by Egalitarians to justify their point of view. WordBender22 (talk) 23:31, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Adding a citation

Hello! In the Biblical authority and inerrancy section there is a citation needed for the claim, "In general, all evangelicals involved in the gender debate claim to adhere to the authority of the Bible." I have found a source that legitimizes this claim and would like to add a citation. WordBender22 (talk) 21:47, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Added the citation!WordBender22 (talk) 23:48, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Substantial Contribution to Egalitarian views

In Rose Ruether's "Sexism and God-Talk" she breaks down different views within Egalitarainism. Her research would be an excellent addition to this article because it widens the scope of views of women in Christianity. I am currently working on a contribution referencing this work for the Egalitarian views section. I am also considering adding this contribution to the Christian egalitarianism article because it is quite obviously needed there, but because of its relevance to both articles I will be adding it to Women in Christianity as well. The contribution is in progress in my sandbox; feel free to check it out. I'll also be adding a brief summary to this talk page too. WordBender22 (talk) 20:19, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

I have decided to post this contribution to the Christian egalitarianism page to keep from throwing off the balance of the Women in Christianity article. I will include a brief summary of the contribution because I still plan to add a very brief section on Egalitarian Anthropologies that will refer readers to the Christian egalitarianism. This plan allows the Women in Christianity article to expand upon a relevant topic without making the other Modern views seem to have less weight than the Egalitarian view. Thanks for patience. WordBender22 (talk) 03:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Egalitarianism Anthropologies Contribution Summary

This contribution references works by Rosemary Radford Ruether, a feminist theologian, and Ronald E. Heine, a doctor of Biblical and Christian studies. Its purpose is to explore egalitarian anthropologies; in doing so, the article gains connections between present egalitarian beliefs and the ideas that it is derived from. Readers will gain an understanding of the ideas that shaped egalitarianism over the years. The content of the contribution is under three subheadings: eschatological feminism, liberal feminism, and romantic feminism- Ruether's divisions of the egalitarian anthropologies. Eschatological feminism describes a view of women as equal to men in a transcendent state that Christians reach through salvation. Liberal feminism describes a view of gender equality needing to be restored through social reformation. Romantic feminism has 3 branches, conservative, reformist, and radical romanticism. Each of these claim that women are innately morally superior to men, but differ in that their prescriptions for women are different. To see more of my research on the topic, feel free to visit the draft in my sandbox and ask any questions or make suggestions. WordBender22 (talk) 03:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Missing link in #Theology

Dear all, the Bibilical Archeology Society reference [5] in the second paragraph of Women in Christianity#Theology seems to have rotted. Does anyone have an archive link? I find the assembled claims there (Mary as adulterous, a prostitute or the wife of Jesus) rather dubious, and the whole paragraph could use a little more than a quote from Karen King. She's notoriously been (one hopes, through no malice on her part) mistaken with the legitimacy of evidence like the Gospel of Jesus' Wife. Maximilian Aigner (talk) 08:15, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Storing section for later use

I'm moving the below section here in case someone wants to reinstate it later with references. It's extremely problematic right now since it has no sources for most of the list. Thus, their positions might be nuanced, but there is no way to tell.

Also, it may not give an accurate overall summary of weights. Right now, there are only two denominations listed under "Restricted roles". That section might actually represent the vast majority of denominations/sects, but there is no way to tell.

Although primary sources might be used to indicate the position of an entry on a list, reliable, secondary sources are needed here to interpret this section overall.--Airborne84 (talk) 16:43, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


Current views by denomination

In general, the issues have been what the proper role of women is (a) in marriage; (b) in the church; (c) in society at large. Among the denominations, movements, and organizations that express or have previously expressed a view, there are four main views:

Full equality

Equality, except clerical offices

Restricted roles in both secular and ecclesiastical life

Mixed

  • Southern Baptist Convention's official position[4] is solely to prohibit females from becoming clergy, and to insist that a wife "graciously submit" to the leadership of her husband, and the husband, in turn, to love the wife, respect her, and refrain from abuse, "loving her as Christ loves the church".Eph. 5:22–28 Their position does not address the previous verse in Ephesians 5:21 which contains the imperative: ...submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ", nor .Members of an individual ("local") Southern Baptist church are allowed to vote on matters of business of the church that include the hiring of a pastor. However, many churches that have chosen female clergy as their pastor have been disenfranchised by either local or state Baptist associations. The vast majority of the congregations tend to hold full secular equality for women. Since Baptists enforce autonomy of each church, it can vary widely from church to church.
  • Jehovah's Witnesses appoint only males as elders and deacons ("ministerial servants"), and allow only baptized males to perform weddings, funerals, and baptisms. A baptized female is considered an ordained minister, but she may only lead congregational prayer and teaching in unusual circumstances, and must wear a head covering while doing so. A female Witness minister wears a head covering when teaching in the presence of a baptized male or in the presence of her husband (regardless of whether or not the husband is baptized). Female head covering is not required when teaching outside the Witnesses' congregation setting or when participating in congregation meetings being led by another. Females may vote on congregation matters, and may qualify for appointment as a full-time pioneer minister.[5]

The above lists are examples and are obviously not exhaustive. It is not always clear into which category a church or movement falls.

The Wesleyan tradition and the Holiness and Pentecostal movements, as well as a growing number of contemporary Charismatic churches which draw from them, have increasingly accepted women as leaders on an equal footing with men.

References

  1. ^ "Letter to Women". Vatican.va. 1995-06-29. Retrieved 2010-11-19.
  2. ^ "Address on Promoting the Well-Being of Women". Vatican.va. 1996-12-07. Retrieved 2010-11-19.
  3. ^ "On the Dignity and Vocation of Women". Vatican.va. 1988-08-15. Retrieved 2013-03-20.
  4. ^ "The Baptist Faith & Message". Sbc.net. Retrieved 2010-11-19.
  5. ^ "Head Coverings—When and Why?", Keep Yourselves in God's Love, ©2008 Watch Tower, pages 43-44 and 209-212

Good call. Constitutional Policy and Culture are two different things. to the underlaying unity of all life so that the voice of intuition may guide us closer to our common keeper (talk) 15:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Requesting opinion on a page move request.

Hello,

@ Talk:Aurat (disambiguation)#Requested_move_11_May_2020 is taking place about article relating to women of mainly of Asian & majority Muslim & Hindu origin. In Past 2 days only two opinions are received and more opinions will be preferable. Although topic is more related to women and Asia I am making request here as part of neutrality in making such request. Thanks for your participation in discussion.

Bookku (talk) 11:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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