Talk:Water ionizer/Archive 4

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Electrolyzed reduced water suppresses tumor angiogenesis Biological & Pharmaceutical Bulletin. 2008 Jan;31(1):19-26 - Pharmaceutical Society of Japan "Electrolyzed reduced water (ERW) produced near the cathode during the electrolysis of water scavenged intracellular H2O2 and decreased the release of H2O2 from a human lung adenocarcinoma cell line, A549, and down-regulated both VEGF transcription and protein secretion in a time-dependent manner." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175936

Electrochemically reduced water protects neural cells from oxidative damage. Oxidative Medicine and Cell Longevity. 2014;2014:869121 - Kyushu University, Fukuoka, Japan. "Results collectively demonstrated for the first time that ERW protects several types of neuronal cells by scavenging ROS because of the presence of hydrogen and platinum nanoparticles dissolved in ERW" - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25383141

--Superversity (talk) 05:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

alkaline water ionizer

we know alkaline water is antioxidant,detoxyfying, hydrogen rich better hydrating,reduced and microclustered .alkaline water has solutions to smooth run metabolic process in the body by putting a stop to oxidate stress, acidosis and hypoxia(lack of oxygen).but every body claim they can make alkaline water by just raising the ph of water by adding alkaline artificial ceramic syenthetic balls to water in filters,pitchers and catridges.

alkaline water produced by alkaline water ionizer will have the best health advantages because alkaline water is made by breaking bonds in h2o molecule into h+ and oh- ions in a process called electrolysis in this process the ions get charged and energetic and are easily absorbed by body cells — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravi198090 (talk • contribs) 04:14, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Alkaline Water and Pepsin

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22844861 Alkaline water may denature pepsin. Hannahlightolson (talk) 22:58, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hannahlightolson.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:43, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Health Benefits?

Feedback desired! Please see here for potential additions to this page -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hannahlightolson/annotatedbib.

There is specific information relating to alkaline water and GERD, blood pressure/sugar/lipids/viscosity, and metabolism. There is also substantial information discussing the chemical ionization homeostasis process that would suggest alkaline water is not of significance. Culturally, Japan is very interested in alkaline water. Water ionization is also relevant to emergency water treatment. Overall, alkaline water is part of an expensive water health trend that is also perhaps worth addressing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hannahlightolson (talk • contribs) 18:06, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

The alleged Health benefits are not backed by hard science. This article need to be cleaned up and made NPOV. Namedefend (talk) 03:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

The article as it was made that clear. I've restored the sourced sections that explained that the claimed benefits are based on pseudoscience. - MrOllie (talk) 21:02, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

I've tried to clean up the cancer claims section. While accurate, it was written in a rather contemptous non-neutral tone and contained some unreferenced statements. I've also shortened it because I felt it strayed somewhat too much from the main topic of the article, and because the topic is already fairly well covered by the Alkaline diet article, which I've added a link to. TruColor (talk) 19:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree on the need to trim back the section and keep the focus on water ionizers, but I'm concerned that POV and OR problems where introduced. Please work in smaller edits with clearer edit summaries. --Hipal (talk) 19:24, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Is the water made from this process at all similar to Hydrogen water? If so the pages should be at least linked, and ideally the studies on it addressed here too.

---

Despite the last edit (here) is without user-sign it is a good question.

The answer is: yes.

Ionizing is the process, hydrogen water or better hydrogen enriched water

is the result, the purpose; in this case.

Sadnessly the article Hydrogen water inclusivly the "Talk"-page is deleted (Status Sa. 11th of June).

But there are more ways to ionize:

- for water filtration, as water-filter, for filtration of water,

- for hydrogen (as energy) producing, here also with chemical materiails for faster processing,

- for hydrogen enriched water, for health, without any chemical materials. (Negativly charged water is a neutral wording also possible.)

For hydrogen enriched water I found short times ago a study and a proof, an evidence, at water-fall in Austria or Switzerland; sorry. (It must have been in the (now deleted) article Hydrogen water.)

The water there was measured with the same method as hydrogen enriched water is being measured: in - (minus) mV; example: -60mV until -100mV the energy measured from mothermilk, juice from lemon at about -230mV.

This now there really sadnessly is not accessable anymore, NOT for me, because of being deleted now.

Sorry, I only can assume, there are interessts, which are denying this knowledge, successful.

When at waterfall this area is being used and being helpful for health, then this in my understanding is a hard evidence of an, and this, effect.

Deleting this to very unavailable is hiding and surpressing. Too sad.

Just saying here for now, because of: what can I do ?

Visionhelp (talk) 13:57, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean the link you left at Talk:Oxyhydrogen, maybe?

You're right, of course, that we're guided by secret interests to hide and suppress this knowledge. Sorry about that.

IpseCustos (talk) 14:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey, IpseCustos, thank You very much. Oxyhydrogen#Brown´s gas: hydrogen enriched water hiding ? Yes.

Visionhelp (talk) 14:55, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Oxyhydrogen gas is only water after you've burned it, and at that point it isn't ionized any more. It has nothing to do with this page, beyond the fact that you can make it by electrolysis (though most of the time it isn't made that way). MrOllie (talk) 15:26, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi MrOllie. It is about the links (in my comment) there (to study) to waterfall experiences the negativ charged water measured and the healthy effects, please. OK ?

Visionhelp (talk) 15:44, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I looked at it - it has nothing to do with this article, also doesn't meet minimum reliability standards (WP:MEDRS). Please keep off topic speculation off of this page. MrOllie (talk) 15:48, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

OK. Ionizing has nothing to do with negativ charged water.

So, I have to take this statement not as please, but as command, I hear from ´speculation´, with.

Visionhelp (talk) 16:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk page uses must comply with specific guidelines, they are about specific improvements to the article, not general forums for discussion of the subject. MrOllie (talk) 16:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I understand: I speak against the claims in the article: (examples) "There is no empirical evidence", "have a noticeable effect on the body". So, this very sorry.

Last question, please: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Asthma not reliable ?

Visionhelp (talk) 16:37, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

We do not use single studies or other primary sources for biomedical content on Wikipedia, as you would know if you read the sourcing guideline I just linked. MrOllie (talk) 16:58, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

The challenges on Wikipedia are not less, easy, simple. But knowledge should be. In those such fights I cannot help.

Visionhelp (talk) 17:08, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

When scientists say, "There is no empirical evidence", they mean "There is no empirical evidence beyond what you expect if there is no effect." Of course, even if there is no effect, as with homeopathy, there will be statistical fluctuations that look like an effect to statistical laypeople, like some medical doctors. So, if there is no effect, there will still be papers by believers which claim to have found an effect. But when experts analyze the totality of papers about such a subject, the conclusion will be that the evidence is too weak. This is one of the reasons why Wikipedia demands secondary sources.

The sentence "There is no empirical evidence" is fine.

I corrected the indentation of your last contribution. See WP:INDENT. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

The indentation until this ´correcting´ did it well, for me. (You do not even about this talk with me. This is commanding, and: too much.)

Again, I am speaking against the claims of this article.

Humans in negativ charged water in this area waterfall spending times of about 14 days, less and more, and being helped expressivly, for months, for my understanding is knowledge by experience. But this requires two things, being open for new, and being open for knowledge, truth, not ´just´ studies. Scientific knowledge, please, if Wikipedia requires being able to study studies. If Wikipedia just wants to be for scientifics, then it is not for me and many more not, too.

But, sorry, this does not belong to here.

We do not talk about the things, to figure out knowledge, we talk about Wikipedia´s expectations, and not about MINE.

This does not make sense at all, but without any scientific (secondary) source.

Visionhelp (talk) 17:49, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

We're not going to promote fringe medical claims in the article, certainly not based on a single study that didn't even use one of the devices this article is actually supposed to be about. MrOllie (talk) 18:12, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

The claim of ph in connection with negative charged water I do not agree as from the importance.

It is not an easy topic. And there are different kind of devices. Even for alone hydrogen enriching devices, which exist at least in 2 variations.

Then there are the water filtration devices, but which I cannot take serious. But in the main because I cannot see, understand, how the filtered stuff is being segregated from the water.

And the article Hydrogen water is deleted also now.

My recognition happened by hearing measured the negativ charged of the water of this waterfall.

I do not want to promote anything. Existing and measuring and helping negativ charged water, if it is by waterfall area OR devices, is knowledge, but hard to receive.

Devices to recommend and not to recommend is quite an other challenge. Visionhelp (talk) 18:49, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Still, to "promote fringe medical claims", need to mention this, after checking the entitlement of Wikipedia ("Welcome to Wikipedia, the free (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_content) encyclopedia that anyone can edit."):

Twice OK. Wikipedia ´is´ not a knowledge base, only Wikidata claims this. Wikipedia than just is a (traditionell) encyclopedia. Despite the announcement ´free encyclopedia´. For knowledge ´new´ recognitions, for Wikipedia have to require (traditionell) scientific evidences. Nothing want to say against this. But knowledge is more, and knowledges do develop. And before scientific works and Wikipedia requirements are exactly this efforts.

But what does not belong to knowledge is JUST discrediting, which I do not support. THOSE, ´at least´ appearing, contradictory ´positions´ opens this such discussions, where I really cannot contribute. Sorry.

Visionhelp (talk) 07:57, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Comparable: Hydrogen inhalation

From Wikipedia Hydrogen #External_links this link https://www.nkud.com/faqs/hydrogen-inhalation-studies/
Also to recommend the article Wikipedia Hydrogen itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen
--Visionhelp (talk) 16:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that fringe link that somehow made it into the Hydrogen article, I removed it. MrOllie (talk) 16:51, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

References

"Amount and type of protein influences bone health" seems to be cited as a reference for the statement that the claims for alkaline water have been "completely debunked". It apparently has nothing to do with the subject, except for a brief section that says that acid-forming foods (no mention of water) increase bone loss slightly.

Also, the last five references (British Dietetic Association, Canadian Cancer Society, American Institute for Cancer Research, Pancreatic Cancer Action Network, and Cancer Research UK) all seem to be about the "alkaline diet", with no mention of "alkaline water". I'm not sure whether or not the supposed logic behind the two things is similar enough to make references for the "alkaline diet" useful in an article about "alkaline water". It might make sense to make it clear that those articles are about that, anyway. Wombat140 (talk) 07:46, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

If I may add it here: for serious, neutral research this topic.

International Journal of Molecular Sciences, title "Electrolyzed–Reduced Water: Review I. Molecular Hydrogen Is the Exclusive Agent Responsible for the Therapeutic Effects" https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/23/23/14750

Visionhelp (talk) 15:47, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Acid reflux

@MrOllie Why does the provided study not meet WP:MEDRS? It is from a reliable source, and the edit that I made was clear that this was the only health benefit that has some empirical evidence. Throwing WP:MEDRS at someone without being specific about the violation is not fair. The article as written is clearly not NPOV and needs fixing. Are these studies sufficient? Ronnocerman (talk) 02:03, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Did you read WP:MEDRS? The bar is clearly stated - claims about health should be from systematic reviews or similar, not single lab experiments. It's right at the top, you don't even have to read the whole policy to find the problem (though you absolutely will need to read the whole thing if you want to edit on biomedical topics on Wikipedia). Even aside from that, the citation you added isn't even about water from an electric ionizer (the topic of this article) it is about water that includes naturally occuring bicarbonite, obviously very different from the topic of this article. The other citations you propose have similar problems. This article meets WP:NPOV - which I will stress does not mean WP:FALSEBALANCE. If something doesn't work, Wikipedia says so. - MrOllie (talk) 02:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Herald Source

On the NZ Herald source: A writer with a doctorate in a related field endorsed the Wikipedia article and incorporated (very) similar statements in their article, which is published in a reliable source. It has been tagged as unreliable in the article, with no discussion here on the talk page. It appears to clearly be reliable to me. Thoughts? MrOllie (talk) 00:24, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

> and incorporated (very) similar statements in their article

It's not just a "very similar statement". It's a direct quote, punctuation and all, of the Wikipedia page at the date of publication of her article. She never makes a claim that she is verifying the information in her statement based on her educational and professional background. Ronnocerman (talk) 01:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

She never makes a claim that she is verifying the information in her statement based on her educational and professional background. Wikipedia does not require reliable sources to assert their own credentials in this manner. It would obviously be untenable, since virtually no writers do this. MrOllie (talk) 01:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm very concerned that the publication date of the ref is four years after the date the similar content was added to this article by @Project Osprey: [1] without any apparent references. I think it safe to assume that the author, Alison Campbell, took the information from this article, so its reliability is questionable and WP:CIRCULAR. --Hipal (talk) 01:23, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a Wikipedia mirror, as is envisioned by WP:CIRCULAR. This is a reliable source/credentialed expert that specifically identified the Wikipedia article as good and correct information chose to repeat it specifically. MrOllie (talk) 01:26, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

My understanding of the general consensus at RSN is that such references are usually found to be unreliable. Should we ask there? --Hipal (talk) 01:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

> specifically identified the Wikipedia article as good and correct information

They identified it as "good". They did not identify it as "correct". "Good" can mean that her perception of the article was "thorough"-- and not that she is vouching that it is correct information based on her credentials. Ronnocerman (talk) 01:38, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I started an RSN discussion: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#New_Zealand_Herald,_Whanganui_Chronicle,_opinion_piece? --Hipal (talk) 16:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Water ionizers raise the pH of the water they're ionizing.

I'm starting a separate topic here for my own sanity of the two topics being bandied back and forth.

This topic is specifically on the subject of whether or not water ionizers can be said to produce alkaline water. This topic is not to debate the health effects of any water that is generated.

Alkaline water is water with a pH of greater than 7.

Per this study, specifically under the heading "4. Different Types of Alkaline Ionized Water Apparatus and Characteristics of the Electrolyzed Water Produced", the exact mechanism is explained by which water ionizers (such as the 8 examples provided in that same heading in Figure 1) produce alkaline water. This is further exemplified by Figure 2 and Figure 3 under that same heading.

Further, in Table 2, it is shown exactly how much the water pH increased from baseline due to these water ionizers. (Starting at 7.28 pH after filtering, and ending with a high of 8.73 pH). This represents an increase of pH, and thus the production of water that is significantly more alkaline than the input water.

Water ionizers produce alkaline water. Anything in this article that contradicts that, without evidence that is more compeling than this study, should be removed. If it can be evidenced, via a reliable source, that a meaningful number of devices exist that claim to increase water pH that in fact do not, then it may also be worth mentioning that "sham" water ionizers exist. Ronnocerman (talk) 01:36, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Again, MDPI is a well known predatory publisher. Citing them is not convincing. MrOllie (talk) 01:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

That article is already cited in this article, in the exact sentence that I am wanting to re-write. It's citation 2.

And the other WSJ citation (Citation 3) for that sentence does not contest that it produces alkaline water. It even has a quote that supports it:

> Roberto Car, a professor of chemistry and physics at Princeton University, says the alkalization process described by Chanson sounds scientifically plausible, though he hasn't examined the machine. But Chanson's claim that alkaline water contains microclusters of molecules more readily absorbable by the body is "nonsense," according to Dr. Car and others.

And the last citation for that sentence (Citation 1) ALSO supports that alkaline water is produced:

> Electrolysis-ionized waterhas a controllable pH and a higher oxidation-reduction potential than chemicals. Ronnocerman (talk) 02:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Further in Citation 1, if you purchase the study (which I did), they provide a full breakdown of just how acidic and alkaline each of the anode and cathode sides of the electrolysis are, along with how long it takes them to return to neutral if it is allowed to freely re-mix. Ronnocerman (talk) 02:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

In summary, all three citations for this sentence either provide strong support (study of water ionizers specifically in citation 2, study of producing alkaline water via electrolysis, which is the same mechanism as machines that are branded water ionizers, in citation 1) or weak support (citation 3) for the claim that water ionizers produce alkaline water. The only other evidence that has been provided against these claims is a circular citation of a pediatric doctor with a degree in a tangentially-related field (biology) quoting this article without directly confirming its veracity.

Even sources that are harshly critical of the machines (citation 2) do not deny that they produce alkaline water.

Unless strong evidence can be provided that these machines don't work, we need to revise the article to reflect this fact.

Given the fact that multiple studies have now been provided that have measured the efficacy of producing alkaline water via electrolysis, strong evidence would need to take the form of more-convincing studies that measure water ionizers and prove that they do not work-- not just a random person with a degree saying that the "chemistry of water ionizers doesn't work". Ronnocerman (talk) 16:48, 27 October 2023 (UTC)