Talk:Vought F4U Corsair/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Night Corsairs in Korea

The part about Korean war states that "Corsair night fighters were used to an extent." However, in Variants, we are told that F4U-4E and F4U-4N "would see great use during the Korean war." Surely "used to an extent" and "great use" can't both be correct, so which one is it? Khilon (talk) 07:52, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

British Corsairs fate

I've heard a story from several different sources that at the end of the war quite a few of the Corsairs used by the british were actually dumped overboard. Can anyone help verify - and if true could it be added to the article?

99.139.200.184 (talk) 10:11, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

It is correct. Per Barrett Tillman's 1979 book, p. 103:

…most of those on hand by VJ Day were unceremoniously dumped in the ocean. The US Navy had more aircraft than even it could use, and the lend-lease provisions held that all equipment retained by the British Commonwealth had to be paid for.

Kablammo (talk) 18:52, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
The Abrams book goes into greater depth:

The other task of the carriers was a melancholy one—that of dumping Lend-Lease aircraft into the sea off Sydney. Under the terms of the Lend-Lease agreement, aircraft that were retained had to be paid for, or they had to be returned to the United States. The US did not want the aircraft and the British did not want to pay for them, so there was no alternative and the waste was inevitable.

Abrams (1977) p. 83. Kablammo (talk) 23:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Speaking as someone totally outside this subject, I find this point interesting and notable, not to say melancholy, but do not understand why, given the available citations, no one has yet added it to the text. JonRichfield (talk) 13:23, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Query regarding propellor

The F4U and P47 were designed around the same engine, the F4U having a three-bladed propellor and the P47 four blades. Given the gull-wing design came about as a way of giving the propellor sufficient ground clearance without making the gear struts too long, why didn't Rex Biesel simply design the aeroplane with a four-bladed propellor? Surely one extra blade would mean the length of the blades could be shorter, requiring less ground clearance? Andy Loates Jr (talk) 11:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

  • Typically, that's the case, and later F4Us did have four-blade propellors. FWiW, a design decision early in the process, could be later changed. Bzuk (talk) 14:29, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Generally you want to have as few blades and as large a diameter as possible. Each extra blade reduces propeller efficiency (weight, induced drag, tip loss and interference drag) while longer blades are more efficient but reduce the maximum rpms that can be applied. Adding an extra blade increases drag (so the aircraft uses more horsepower for the same speed) but allows more power to be applied, upping the top speed and acceleration if sufficient excess power is available. The change between 3 and 4 blades coincided with an increase in engine power.NiD.29 (talk) 14:59, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

NZ Corsairs

"60 FG-1Ds which arrived post war were given serial numbers prefixed NZ5600 to NZ5660". This sequence is actually 61 planes - so what is the right number? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.223.83 (talk) 10:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I removed the serials as we dont normally list them but it I understand that the sequence actually started at NZ5601 (to NZ5660) but since it was added here is has rippled into loads of wikipedia mirrors and repeated in all sorts of websites but try http://www.adf-serials.com/nz-serials/ MilborneOne (talk) 18:54, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Speed units

Seems odd that many of the speeds are given in mph and km/h but not in knots. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:45, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

thatch weave

It is not totally correct to say that thatch weave exploits f4u's strengths. Thatch weave was developed for f4f's which turn worse and are as slow as a zero. The only advantage they have against a zero is greater durability under fire and a higher volume of fire. To exploit this you would act in pairs and weave to clear each other's sixes. That is a desperation maneuver. F4u on the other hand has a huge speed advantage, is comparable or better in acceleration, has a huge dive advantage etc. compared to zero. Thatch weave is not needed in f4u since you can just push your nose down and disengage. The zero pilot will either have to follow you and get shot down by your wingman when flying straight , or turn and go away, in which case you turn too and shoot him down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.226.253.34 (talk) 06:53, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

British Designation

The impression given here is that the marks were clear cut based on U.S. model type as well as manufacturer. In reality, they were classed only by manufacturer; Corsair MkII were Vought (F4U-1, -1A and -1D) and the MkIV were Goodyear (FG-1A and FG-1D) AND these (MkIV) came from the factory with clipped wingtips. (I believe the MkIIs were clipped in service.) JetMec (talk) 21:43, 4 December 2013 (UTC) [1]

References

  1. ^ Time Capsule Fighter Corsair KD431 David Morris

Article structure and readability

Anybody any thoughts on this? There's some fascinating info that people have added to this article. I personally though found this hindered in terms of clarity by long sections that could be improved in terms of readability. I've had a go at:-

  • adding some section headings to reduce the section size
  • structuring things into a more logical sequence (eg having the WW2 sections next to each other)
  • Tidying up what I think were formatting errors with some sections not being correctly aligned

Even with that, I'm still not convinced its yet perfect and does justice to what was a remarkable aircraft. There in though possibly lies part of the problem. For an aeroplane with so many points of note, its going to toy with our heads in terms of finding and deciding the optimum structure.

Opinion anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.212.16 (talk) 01:31, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

PS There's other stuff in there that still doesn't seem to be in the correct place in my humble opinion (eg some of the stuff in the 'Legacy' section.

Anyone up to having a bash at tidying it up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.212.16 (talk) 01:47, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

188, feel free to have a go at it. There have been a few prior discussions in the talk page archive (see, for example, the section on comparision with the Hellcat) which may be helpful. Kablammo (talk) 15:50, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
(Comment from uninvolved editor)It might be more helpful to ask for peer review on this article. It's rather hard to comment on readability and "perfectness" from an objective viewpoint. I'm not suggesting that asking for comments on the article formatting isn't useful, just that peer review might offer more.FMMonty (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Recent changes

First, welcome to the new editors here, who appear both well-informed and motivated to improve this article. Some items for discussion:

  • The USMC has been substituted for the USN as primary user in the infobox. The USN had almost twice as many squadrons flying Corsairs as the USMC. I don't have the raw numbers of aircraft. I've had a look at some of the sources (I have most of the Corsair-specific print sources) but so far it appears that the BuNos simply list planes allocated to the USN, which includes the USMC.
  • The changes to make the aircraft more carrier-friendly included a simple technical modification to the oleo strut, greatly reducing the rebound on touchdown.
  • The first carrier with combat-ready Corsairs was CV-17, which on arrival in Hawaii for the first tour of duty had its Corsairs removed not because of technical aspects, but because the Navy did not want to carry parts supplies for both the Hellcat and the Corsairs on carriers. VF-17, unwilling to give up its planes, elected to go land-based.
  • Toward the end of the war Corsairs were placed aboard the fast carriers in preference to Hellcats. I will find the reasons, but I think I recall part of it was the Corsair's superior speed.

As new content is added, please include the sources. As shown above, some of the new changes may be subject to disagreement, hence good sourcing is important. Kablammo (talk) 16:08, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

What's with the use of meters for altitude? Other plane articles use feet with meters in parentheses. Historical accounts of planes of this era always use feet. The use of meters only is jarring and needlessly pedantic.184.45.74.17 (talk) 07:17, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Aces/Navy Aces/Jet Aces

"The leader of one such unit, Lieutenant Guy Bordelon of VC-3 Det D (Detachment D), off USS Princeton (CV-37), become the Navy's only ace in the war, in addition to being the only ace to not score any victories in a jet aircraft."

This is a little confusing, stating that Lt. G. Bordelon was the Navy's only ace in the war, as well as the only ace to not score in a jet. This is confusing because there were hundreds, if not thousands of aces who never even touched a jet, let alone flew one, and it also implies that there were other Navy aces during the Korean War, contradicting the first half of the sentence.

Could this be cleared up, please? --Stizzleswick (talk) 05:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Agree I hae tweaked the words slightly to see if it makes more sense. MilborneOne (talk) 10:21, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Most capable carrier-based fighter-bomber of World War II.

Can you explain how so? Even if some author says that it is, the statement can still be opinionated. Thanks. F-16 Viper (talk) 18:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Since it is a bone of contention, although many sources starting with the venerable William Green have made that assertion, would you consider a revision saying "arguably" the most ... FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Tom Blackburn quote

Lots of problems with this recent edit: undue weight, bad formatting, improperly cited. I've refrained from just reverting it because it seems like an interesting bit of information that may be salvageable, but would like some advice on whether/how to salvage it. --Yaush (talk) 15:18, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I have other sources (eg: Dana bell 2014 http://www.hyperscale.com/2014/reviews/books/f4u1vol1bellbookreviewse_1.htm) that also say the Corsair was rated satisfactory as a carrier aircraft from the get go, and the only reason the Navy chose to use the F6F was to simplify the supply chain. That makes sense, because fleet carriers already had to carry spare parts, engines and maintenance accessories for three aircraft types - adding a second fighter would only complicate matters. The main source of the complaints about the Corsair's unsuitability was from G G O'Rourke, the captain of the Sangamon who took a real dislike to the aircraft. Qualification trials on other carriers in 1942 were generally positive, so it would seem there are grounds for doubts, at least. As it is, the statement:

The U.S. Navy received its first production F4U-1 on 31 July 1942, but getting it into service proved difficult. The framed "birdcage" style canopy provided inadequate visibility for deck taxiing. Even more seriously, the machine had a nasty tendency to "bounce" on touchdown, which could cause it to miss the arresting hook and slam into the crash barrier, or even go out of control. The long "hose nose" visibility problem and the enormous torque of the Double Wasp engine also created operational problems.

is uncited, as are similar statements in the intro. In essence, undue weight has been given to the myth about the Corsair's unsuitability for carrier use, while none at all has been given to the Navy's need to simplify the supply chain. ◆Min✪rhist✪rian◆MTalk 23:17, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Main page photo

Not that this necessarily matters, but the main photo at the top of the page as of 18/04/2016 00:25 GMT, captioned "A restored F4U-4 Corsair in Korean War-era U.S. Marine Corps markings", is clearly of a scale plastic model... A nice model, but still. Is there not a photo of the real aircraft that could go there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.185.184 (talk) 23:27, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

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Clarity needed

The PIPE, I'm having trouble parsing this sentence:

Those operating in the Pacific theater acquired a specialized British insignia — [69] that added white "bars" to either side from the summer of 1943 onward; to make it look more like all U.S. Navy insignia that dated from 28 June 1943 onward — that also removed any presence of a red color from the UK's Fleet Air Arm aircraft roudels in the Pacific Theater (avoiding mistaken identification as a Japanese Hinomaru insignia), as all US military aircraft insignia from May 6, 1942 onward already had[70] to prevent friendly fire incidents.

Can you split it into two or three more manageable sentences? Thank you. Kablammo (talk) 23:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

I just came up with this alternative...please feel free to clarify it more if it's needed!

1831 NAS Corsair aboard HMS Glory, off Rabaul, 1945, with added "bars" based on their June 28, 1943 adoption by the U.S. Navy
The U.S. Navy national insignia from June 28, 1943 onwards, the source of the added "bars" for the British roundels used by SEAC in the Pacific.

"FAA Corsairs originally fought in a camouflage scheme with a Dark Slate Grey/Extra Dark Sea Grey disruptive pattern on top and Sky undersides, but were later painted overall dark blue. As it had become imperative for all Allied aircraft in the Pacific Theater of World War II to abandon all use of any "red devices" in their national insignia — to prevent any chance of misidentification with Japanese military aircraft, all of which bore the circular, all-red Hinomaru insignia (often nicknamed a "meatball" by Allied aircrew), the main Allied force in the Pacific, the United States, had all areas of red color (removing the red center to the roundel, and removed any sort of national fin/rudder markings from the American national aircraft insignia scheme by May 6, 1942. The British did likewise around the same timeframe, starting with a simple paintover with white paint, of their "Type C" roundel's red center, at about the time the U.S. Navy removed the red-center from their roundel. Later, a shade of slate gray center color replaced the white color on the earlier roundel. When the Americans starting using the added white "bars" to either side of their blue/white star roundel on June 28, 1943; SEAC British Corsairs, most all of which still used the earlier blue/white Type C roundel with the red center removed, added similar white "bars" to either side of their blue-white roundels to emulate the Americans."

The PIPE (talk) 00:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. That is much clearer. Kablammo (talk) 12:52, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Is there a way to force a dark background for the insignia image? The white background makes the white bars impossible to see without clicking on the image. F16falcona46 (talk) 21:26, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

F4U-4B/C

Why did you revert my edit to remove the -4C listing? I gave the official flight manual[1] as my source. Aditionally, Osprey's Air Vanguard 17, Vought F4U Corsair[2],has no mention of the supposed -4C and only mentions the M3-armed -4B. No mention is made of any Fleet Air Arm order.--MandolinMagi (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs-documentviewer.php?id=16071
  2. ^ https://ospreypublishing.com/vought-f4u-corsair

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Speed

F4U-1s of VF-17 in the Solomon Islands also had water injection, which no doubt saved Ike Kepford's life in his last combat mission on February 19, 1944. That is not mentioned in the article. I will check my sources, but those deal more with combat operations than technical aspects. Kablammo (talk) 23:01, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Baised comment for F4U-1C

'The weight of the Hispano cannon and their ammunition affected the flight performance, especially its agility, but the aircraft was found to be especially potent in the ground attack role.' <= What exactly did the 'primary source' for this claim? I'm not talking about 'secondary source' like "American Warplanes of WWII".


"the weight of Cannon" is nonsense, pure weight of 4 x 20mm cannons with 924rds(1058 lbs) was even lighter than 6 x .50cal machineguns with 2400rds(1125 lbs). This is why F4U-4B(12400) was lighter than F4U-4(12500 lbs) and F4U-1C(12063 lbs) was only 35 lbs heavier than F4U-1D(12028 lbs) in full internal load condition. Although the -4B and -5 later became about 200lbs heavier by field modification for larger capacity with 984rds + etc. (these figures from pilot's hand books and detail-specifications for F4U-1/4/5)


According to USN/USMC Action Reports(Bunker Hill, Shangri-La and VMF-311/314/441), F4U-1C/D ACP, General Performance Data by Vought and AN-45HA-1 Pilot's Handbook of Flight Operating Instructions, The M2 cannon was found to have no significant effect on both weight and lift cofficient. Compared to F4U-1D, the CLmax was the same and the weight was only 0.2 percent difference under the full internal load conditions. According to F4U-1C/D ACP, In the case of fighter-bomber condition with three pylons, the difference increases to 2.4 percent seems due to different type of pylons, but the CLmax is still equal and there is no significant change in flight performance. Also There is no change in flight performance was reported in action reports for aircraft and carrier both.


This is also demonstrated in the technical document. According NACA-829, figure 27 and 29 for Airplane 1, Gunports in services condition did not better in aerodynamic than 20mm cannon installed condition. only smooth or covered conditions were better than services condition with gunports or cannons installed.


and for 'Aviators preferred the standard armament of six .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns since they were already more than powerful enough to destroy most Japanese aircraft, and had more ammunition and a higher rate of fire.', it's not simply to say. without "bugs", The superior firepower of 20mm was highly appreciated.

CVG-84 evaluated 20mm cannons as follows:

"This group received eleven F4U-1C planes on 18 March 1945. The percentage of stoppages of the Mark IX 20mm guns were fairly high at first and they wre mainly caused by improper belting and loading of the ammunition. these stoppages were reduced as the ordnance crews gained experince until the performance of the guns compared favorable with the .50 caliber. Although no accurate test were conducted, it is believed that the 20mm does not freeze as readily as the .50 calibre. (omit text) It is believed that the 20mm machine gun is more effective for all types of combat work than the .50 caliber gun." (primary source : Action Reports of Air Group 84, Kyushu - Shikoku - Kure - Okinawa operations, 27 May 1945)


However, the CVG-85 was admitted to firepower of 20mm cannons but unable to solve the high-altitude freezing problem, so concluded:

"It is believed that at presant the use of all 50 caliber guns, which have proven their value, would increase this group's combat efficiency. At the same time the 20mm would be preferred for one of the fighter squadrons provided the same performance as the 50 caliber could be insured." (primary source : ACA-1 Aircraft Action Reports, CVG-85, 12 May 1945)


Case of VMF-311/314, The marine pilots claimed that 20mm was effective for enemy aircraft.

"This was the first enemy plane to be shot down by VMF311. It was also the first iue the 20mm guns had been used in combat, and all pilots were enthusiastic about the great destructive power of this armament." (primary source : VMF-311 Aircraft Action Report, 7 April 1945)

"Pilots again expressed enthusiasm for their 20mm guns." "All pilots were enthusiastic, as usual, about their 20mm guns."(primary source : VMF-311 Aircraft Action Report, 28 April 1945)

"Pilots continued to make enthusiastic comments about their 20mm armament. In almost all cases enemy planes when hit were sonn to partial or wholly distntgrate under the impact of the high explosive 20mm shells." (primary source : VMF-311 Aircraft Action Report, 4 May 1945)

"All the pilots were very enthusiastic about the performance of the 20mm guns. They said there is no question about hits, because very hit on any part of a plane appears like a gun flash upon impact." (primary source : VMF-314 Aircraft Action Report, 2 June 1945)


The description of the F4U-1C needs to be supplemented. Dawncaster (talk) 13:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

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