Talk:Voiceless dental and alveolar lateral fricatives

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The audio is wrong. Nahuatl has many words whith this lateral consonant and it is very different that the one in the audio.

General Style Issues[edit]

This sentence: The voiceless alveolar lateral fricative is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. could use some direct citations of cross-linguistic attestation of the sound so users can quickly navigate to these sources while reading the lead section. Peter Ladefoged's website [1]has some great examples.Alyson Budd (talk) 01:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The blurb describing Welsh instances of the sound should be moved into the body of the article.Alyson Budd (talk) 01:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please add Inuktitut!!--Sonjaaa (talk) 11:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should tlhIngan tlh /t͡ɬ/ be mentioned? It contains /ɬ/, but there is no isolated "lh". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.162.20.29 (talk) 20:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

/t͡ɬ/ is the Voiceless alveolar lateral affricate--87.162.38.166 (talk) 18:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Audio sample issues[edit]

Is it just me or is there something wrong with the audio sample? MNrykein (talk) 04:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What's wrong with it? — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 05:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like it cuts off. MNrykein (talk) 02:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have that problem. Does it seem to cut off before the second vowel begins? — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 03:53, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It sounded like that before. Now it has the second vowel. But it still doesn't sound right. First, aren't these supposed to have the pattern of "consonant-vowel vowel-consonant-vowel"? And second, it sounds like [aʃla] to me. Is that what it's supposed to sound like? MNrykein (talk) 06:57, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what they're "supposed" to be, but all of the ones I've heard have been just vowel-consonant-vowel. Yes, it is supposed to sound like [aʃla], at least to English speakers. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 13:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Most I have heard have been recorded as "CV, VCV, VC". In fact, I think I have a copy of the sample that goes with this article somewhere, and it followed the that pattern (did someone change the audio recently?). The reason for that pattern is so that one can hear the consonants in their most used contexts (that is: CV, VCV, VC).

I'm hearing a problem with the audio, too... I'm hearing "ɑɬɑ̆(audio stutter)ɑ" — al-Shimoni (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I uploaded my own recording of this consonant. Mine isn't followed by /l/. TFighterPilot (talk) 21:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It would be helpful if the recording had IPA transcription to accompany it, to show the sound in context with other phonemes. Additionally, a spectrogram or some other visual representation would be helpful.Alyson Budd (talk) 01:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The sound of the audio sample is not the correct sound. I know perfectly the nahuatl sound for this case and it does not match with the audio sample. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.207.110.132 (talk) 21:19, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently this sound is used in taishanese as well, and it does NOT sound like that, it sounds more a hl or tl than whatever the wiki audio is. Kjl3080 (talk) 06:19, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, the wiki audio here doesn't sound like a dental or alveolar. Maybe multiple audio clips would be better, since the article is trying to cover multiple kinds of fricatives 98.29.142.35 (talk) 04:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Icelandic[edit]

Note that I have added a source to Icelandic phonology which confirms the presence of lateral fricatives and affricates in Icelandic, at least as allophones. Whether they might be said to have phonemic status depends on the analysis; so I am not sure if they should be mentioned in this article and the one on the corresponding affricate. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:53, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We can mention them in both, unless the source doesn't explicitly say something about a voiceless alveolar lateral affricate, in which case you should remove mention of it from the Icelandic phonology article. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 15:47, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understood that phonetically, the cluster is realised as an affricate automatically, but it's true that this is not explicitly stated in the source. Instead, it's called a "pre-stopped lateral". (I wonder if you can distinguish a voiceless alveolar lateral affricate from a prestopped lateral and a group at all, using the spectrogram given in the source. Acoustically, I can't.) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You'll probably get different answers on how to do so depending on if you ask a phonetician or a phonologist. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 16:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect IPA Information?[edit]

Hello! I think I noticed a strange error just now. It claims that the IPA symbol represents the voiceless dental fricative, which is clearly untrue -- that is <th> in English "think," and that is represented by a theta-like symbol in IPA. I don't know about the postalveolar thing, tho. Does anyone have information on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.153.79 (talk) 03:47, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not worded very clearly, but there can be dental lateral fricatives, alveolar lateral fricatives, and postalveolar lateral fricatives all transcribed as [ɬ]. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 04:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tolkien languages[edit]

I have removed the reference to Tolkien's languages; it is unsourced, and it's not clear that it's true. In Appendix E to The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien specifically says that lh represents voiceless /l/, and he may not have fully understood that Welsh ll was a fricative. (In addition, Sindarin is Welsh-influenced but Quenya is not.) —John Cowan (talk) 21:30, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since no language has a phonemic distinction between the two, I don't see how it could hurt, though maybe w a fn. — kwami (talk) 22:33, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, Xhosa does, too (hl vs. lh). --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 17:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What do you want to say? Xhosa hl is [ɬ], whereas lh a slack-voiced /l̤/... --JorisvS (talk) 19:46, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Alevolar Lateral Fricative in some English Dialects[edit]

When I was creating a conlang, I had <ll> pronounced /ɮ/. I looked up the phoneme I'd discovered, and ever since lateral fricatives have been my realization of English <sh> and <zh>. As far as I know, everyone I know still pronounces <sh> as /ʃ/, but I haven't asked :P. GamerGeekWiki (talk) 20:56, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Capital Letter[edit]

That section is about orthography and not phonology, and belongs somewhere else but not this article. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:35, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]