Talk:Viktor Sokolov (naval officer)

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Reports of death[edit]

After attack on Black Sea Headquarters: Putin's Black Sea Fleet HQ blown up in huge missile attack... multiple online sources are reporting that Sokolov has been killed. Waiting for official confirmation Javelinbellbottoms (talk) 16:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wait for official confirmation from the Ukrainian or Russian governments, before adding the death. Thanks, Wikieditor019 (Talk to me) 17:34, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we shouldn't depend on one claim only. His death should be approved by both Russian and Ukrainian officials, as such lies are common during wartime to decrease the opponent's will of winning. Another option is a proof of his death, such as a reliable image or video of his death. Currently, the Russian claims seem more reliable as he was featured in a video of the Russian ministry of defence meeting today. Maghool Magahil (talk) 15:01, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've only seen this from WP:THESUN, which we cannot use. We have to wait until a usable source reports this. Scu ba (talk) 20:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Funny how Wikipedia pretends to be objective and they uses sources that have been caught up lying all the time like the Kyiv Independent 2A02:8109:1A3F:C906:35EF:F49F:57F7:97E7 (talk) 16:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As expected, it was a complete lie. https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1706619470448386264 2001:638:508:F002:7E22:2FAB:4D1A:EC94 (talk) 12:13, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Russia is known for doing this, someone dying and magically appearing again, like Prigozhin, who is dead. WarMonitors on X is known to be pro-Russian as well. Thanks, Wikieditor019 (Talk to me) 15:28, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only one doing that was Ukraine with Budanov 2A02:8109:1A3F:C906:1D6E:D491:830B:E686 (talk) 06:53, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Budanov is not dead?! Thanks, Wikieditor019 (Talk to me) 16:09, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've semi-protected the page for a couple of days. Feel free to undo if this causes problems I didn't foresee. Rklawton (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The information seems to remain unconfirmed, but it now appears on the page. The cited sources use the term "reportedly". Is it safe to say that we should remove or at least rephrase the text until full confirmation is available? PraiseVivec (talk) 10:17, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the reset, because rumors of the the alleged dead are unconfirmed: ″Kyrylo Budanov, the head of the Main Intelligence Directorate of Ukraine, told the Voice of America that [...] Budanov did not confirm reports about the alleged death of the commander of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, Adm Viktor Sokolov.″ (www.theguardian.com). --Fit (talk) 12:11, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ukraine just officially confirmed it, do we need a neutral source to confirm as well? Javelinbellbottoms (talk) 10:53, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Would Deutsche Welle count as a neutral source? https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-updates-kyiv-says-killed-russian-fleet-commander/live-66912711 134.53.89.33 (talk) 12:29, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that says the same thing, that Ukraine says he’s dead. How is that confirmation of anything? 96.250.122.235 (talk) 12:54, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Short of Russia confirming themselves, we're not going to get anything more official. Javelinbellbottoms (talk) 13:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Claims of his death are being reported (e.g, in the Guardian), so it’s certainly notable for this article to say he’s been reported killed. Are the reports even disputed?  —Michael Z. 14:06, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ukraine notably misreported/lied about several Russian generals being killed that ended up resurfacing again in the war or another military post. Defintely unconfirmed… people need to learn the difference between what a news article says what ukraine says and a an actual death notice through Russian news. Understand both sides are in an Information way and Wikipedia doesn’t need to partake in mouth piecing for one side over the other. 174.215.243.72 (talk) 19:07, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You understand the absurdity of waiting for official confirmation from a country that has never said two truthful statements in a row? It's going to be very silly to keep this page locked for the next year, because Russians may NEVER acknowledge his death, nor prove he is alive. Javelinbellbottoms (talk) 21:18, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's ridiculous to accept he is dead because some Ukrainian Intel officer said so. Ukraine has every reason to aggrandize its attacks however marginal to show its Western backers that its making some kind of progress however small. 97.103.129.121 (talk) 07:02, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you talking about Ukraine? Cause Ukraine has done nothing but lie during this entire conflict and the western mainstream media has done nothing but parroted those lies over and over 2001:638:508:F002:7E22:2FAB:4D1A:EC94 (talk) 12:08, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Russian MoD are refuting the death now: https://ria.ru/20230926/flot-1898715768.html?rcmd_alg=slotter 82.134.7.182 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The video they published only reinforces the fact he's dead: https://t.me/mod_russia/30824
Non-interactive, remotely joined, almost static picture of Sokolov. Country built of decades of lies and propaganda surely has archive footage they can show for occasions exactly like this. Doesn't prove anything. Javelinbellbottoms (talk) 12:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just stay off Wikipedia discussion if you’re not going to be neutral. Wikipedia is not Ukraine or Russias megaphone to dupe people by prematurely updating people’s death dates based off literally rumors or ridiculous claims without evidence they killed 43 officers in one strike, etc. 2600:8804:1582:FF00:28EF:765:BA67:2BC4 (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral -> not having enough braincells to find the difference between the truth and propoganda? Sokolov is dead, Russia is a lying state and you're a braindead underdeveloped softshell crab 77.221.87.126 (talk) 13:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He was shown to be alive in a video today. Reported by the same publication in the UK that reported his death.
Russia releases video of admiral a day after Ukraine claimed he was dead | Russia | The Guardian
Stop being a propagandist for Ukraine. The Impartial Truth (talk) 14:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is quite moving to read the spills from the sewer called Lithuanian Lilliputania. 37.19.110.159 (talk) 18:34, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh the irony. You people are the biggest hypocrites ever. 2001:638:508:F002:AB6:5BBA:EF5B:D752 (talk) 11:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can understand your frustration, however this is not a matter of Russia vs Ukraine, this is a matter of facts vs speculation.
With the current information, it is difficult to conclusively verify that the subject is dead. This video alone, while certainly raising some eyebrows, would not qualify as proof of death. 87.6.58.122 (talk) 20:31, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Some eyebrows" - we should include the "proof of life" picture, lol. Jjazz76 (talk) 01:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's been a month and Sokolov has not resurfaced. Last week, Ukraine's military told the | Kyiv Post that they don't know if he is alive or dead. Quote: “As to Sokolov, he's definitely anything but fine. If and as soon as his death is confirmed, we'll surely inform the public.” 24.16.239.30 (talk) 05:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's fair to add to this page that 'He has not been seen alive since'. 80.111.123.108 (talk) 19:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rank[edit]

We give his rank as “Admiral“. Would someone with knowledge of the Russian naval rank structure be able to be more specific as to his star-count? Springnuts (talk) 20:04, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian "Admiral" rank is equivalent to the American "Admiral" rank. They are both 4-star ranks. In Russia, only "Admiral of the Fleet" outranks an "Admiral". In America, we might say "full Admiral" to distinguish a 4-star admiral from other admirals just as we might say "full colonel" to distinguish a colonel from a lieutenant colonel. However, we do this for clarification and not the rank's designation.[1] Rklawton (talk) 21:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Russian "Admiral" is only a three-star rank equivalent to the colonel-general in the Ground Forces. The "Admiral of the Fleet" is the naval equivalent to the "General of the Army" (= four-star general in other countries), but was only given to very few commanders mainly back in the Soviet Union. While there are a couple of four-star generals in the Ground Forces, there are currently none in the Navy. Even their Commander-in-Chief, Admiral Nikolai Yevmenov, only has three stars on his shoulders, as you can see in current pictures and videos 79.227.38.138 (talk) 09:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know of any confirmation that he was promoted to Admiral from Vice Admiral. There are photos of Sokolov from May (nearly a year after he was promoted to fleet commander) that show him wearing the insignia of a Vice Admiral. https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/230925133553-viktor-sokolov-051323.jpg?c=16x9&q=h_720,w_1280,c_fill/f_webp ...JohN...DoE...DeeR...JohN... (talk) 14:36, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, the video released by the Russian MOD today shows him with the rank of admiral. ...JohN...DoE...DeeR...JohN... (talk) 17:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sevastopol is Ukraine (not Russia)[edit]

Wiki own article Sevastopol, states that "Sevastopol, along with the rest of Crimea, is internationally recognised as part of Ukraine, and under the Ukrainian legal framework"

Can we stay consistent in the infobox and have it state that Sokolov died in Sevastopol, Ukraine and not Sevastopol, Russia then? Javelinbellbottoms (talk) 13:08, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sevastopol is in Russia Napalm Guy (talk) 16:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So-called Wikipedia[edit]

Another proof that the so-called Wikipedia is an anti-Russian propaganda machine and an accomplice of Ucro-Nazism. When they want to say when someone is lying, they say - Did you read that on Wikipedia? The mentioned admiral was also at the briefing, and I see that you have removed the fact that he is dead. But the bunch of lies you told will be remembered and what was your role as a platform. 37.19.110.159 (talk) 11:18, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

proof: https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1706615231131034049 37.19.110.159 (talk) 11:21, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Russia is known for doing this, someone dying and magically appearing again, like Prigozhin, who is dead. Please also dont use terms like "Ucro-Nazism" its a untrue slur. Thanks, Wikieditor019 (Talk to me) 15:30, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"untrue slur"? Yes, yes... these days we saw a "veteran" who fought against the Russians who was greeted in Canada... however, it turned out that he was a member of the SS Galicia. So the description of Uko-Nazis is not a new term, but an evolutionary form that the so-called the collective West is being raised from the dead for the needs of Russophobia, which it has cultivated for decades. 37.19.110.159 (talk) 18:23, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There were people from all different countries in Europe that went to joint the SS. Russia is the one that famously had a Nazi march in Moscow Thanks, Wikieditor019 (Talk to me) 16:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reports of Survival[edit]

RIA Novosti has just released a video from the MoD of Sokolov appearing at a meeting. Original Russian Google Translate Link Reuters Summary


While this is Russian State Media and a deprecated source (under sputnik), it's notable enough for me to start a new topic. It's also not definitive proof of his survival, given the lack of speech and movement.

One Faraway (talk) 11:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added that Russia released a video featuring Sokolov, and that they denied having reports on his death. I think that is what we can include at this point without speculating about whether he guy is actually dead or not. Cortador (talk) 12:13, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked Russian MOD link[edit]

the much used footnote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Sokolov_(naval_officer)#cite_note-vma-2 is blocked.

There is an Aug 2022 archive of that link https://web.archive.org/web/20220819102335/https://vma.mil.ru/O_VUZe/Rukovodstvo/item/242483/https://web.archive.org/web/20220819102335/https://vma.mil.ru/O_VUZe/Rukovodstvo/item/242483/ 74.109.243.144 (talk) 15:14, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proof of life?[edit]

Today, Russian TG channel released a video of Sokolov supposedly alive and well: https://t.me/izvestia/143929

However, independent research has shown definitive proof that this video was filmed few days before the attack on Black Sea HQ (one example of the research here: https://t.me/Crimeanwind/43740)

Once some main stream media picks up on this, it will be worth noting on the main page, that Sokolov's status is still not confirmed. Javelinbellbottoms (talk) 16:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are so pathetic, just stop. You went from demanding Wikipedia change Sokolov's status as dead to insisting Wikipedia change it to "not confirmed" within 48 hours.Sad. If Ukraine is claiming he's dead than prove it, the burden of proof is on the claimant. 97.103.129.121 (talk) 02:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is Sokolov dead? 2605:A000:FFC0:5F:F9BD:9D:B97C:57D4 (talk) 03:20, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, as of today, we have
1 Ukraine attacked Sevastopol (confirmed)
2 Sokolov was there during the attack (do we know this?)
3 Ukraine reported they received information Sokolov was killed during the attack.
4 Russia provided, without official comments, video footage showing Sokolov after the incident.
5 Some of that material could be proven to be pre-incident. None of the material shows Sokolov speaking, and in particular not about events after the attack.
6 Ukraine admitted they don't know about his status.
7 No public sightings of Sokolov since than.
I think he is playing chess with Navalny right now. Peeceepeh (talk) 09:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That comment hasn't aged too well, has it? I'm pretty sure he is playing chess with Navalny "now". Bungler91 (talk) 11:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Status of this individual[edit]

I have been recently doing some minor tweaks to bios of military officers of the Russian Empire, White movement and USSR, and I came upon this fellow by chance. The whole "dead-not-dead" thing sort-of piqued my interest, so I googled him while narrowing the scope to the past month, and there are pretty recent news about him, including this news piece about him participating in the blessing of the Russian naval ensign for ships in the Black Sea Fleet. A video of him participating in the ceremony is included. In the clip he is seen speaking and he mentions events that happened after his supposed demise (for example, the bestowing of the Order of Ushakov to the 810th Brigade of naval infantry of the Black Sea Fleet, or joint exercises between the Russian and Algerian fleets that happened in December 2023). I have zero interest in editing stuff directly related to the current Russian-Ukrainian War, so I will not be introducing any edits myself, but if there's a brave soul out there that is more willing than I am to edit in this hellhole of an area, I think they can go ahead and clean up the article a bit, and we can chalk this one up to infowars. Cheers. Ostalgia (talk) 14:08, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arrest warrant[edit]

The ICC has issued a warrant for his arrest: Reuters. 331dot (talk) 15:15, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Time to move on[edit]

Admiral Sokolov has not been seen alive since the attack in September 2023. It's been a month now since Russian military bloggers and an anonymous official at the Defence Ministry reported that he had been "demoted" following the latest sinking of a Russian warship in the Black Sea, a report which the Russian Government neither confirmed nor denied.[1] Both of these statements are factual and for the sake of accuracy they should be included in the article. Bungler91 (talk) 11:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Russian bloggers say fleet commander fired after latest Ukrainian ship attack". Retrieved 2024-03-17.
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