Talk:Vasily I of Moscow

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On 6 May 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Vasily I. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ryaleon.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unclear passage[edit]

During the reign of Vasiliy I, feudal landownership kept growing. With the growth of princely authority in Moscow, feudals' judicial powers were partially diminished and transferred to Vasili's deputies and heads of volosts.

So, was feudalism growing or declining? My guess would be that the first sentence refers to the centralization of royal powers at the expense of local feudal lordships, but I haven't any books upon which to change the present unsatisfactory wording (though "feudal's" is certainly faulty English).

qp10qp 16:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Naming[edit]

Irpen and others, calm down a bit. of Russia? See [1], [2], [3] Colchicum 22:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is so peculiar about these two sources? Google books gives

"basil OR vasili OR vasily i OR ii OR iii of muscovy" 19 mentions.

"basil OR vasili OR vasily i OR ii OR iii of russia" 20 mentions.

"basil OR vasili OR vasily i OR ii OR iii of moscow" 93 mentions.

So, in fact, even for these three, Russia is now more frequent than Muscovy. But Moscow is even more frequent. It was the self-name at the time, by the way, not "Muscovy" which was only used by foreigners. --Paul Pieniezny 23:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google Books is a garbage (useful garbage, to avoid misunderstanding. -- Colchicum 00:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)). There are good books and books with poor editorial oversight there. Journals are far more reliable. Note, however, that of Russia is applied mostly to Vasily III. I guess you know why. Colchicum 23:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Among the 6 (really 5) mentioning "of Russia" for Vassily I or II is such garbage as the New Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1993 and the Encyclopedia of World History ... --Paul Pieniezny 00:27, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amazing. Is it now yet another holy political crusade to struggle against renaming of this article? Why? Well, IMHO the fact that both are non-specialized tertiary sources is quite telling (as well as the quality of their articles on the topics I am more intimately familiar with). Most probably, it is just a result of some random editorial conventions. Colchicum 00:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, well, so do you mean that of Moscow would be better? This is ok with me. Colchicum 00:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Muscovy was NOT a self-name, like "Polacks". As for the holy political crusade, have a look at the book googles for "of Muscovy". One of the most recent of them is the 1991 New Encyclopaedia Britannica (it seems like in 1991 they used "Muscovy" exclusively, and after that started to switch to Russia and Moscow). Of the two googles after 1991, one is really German (Forschungen zur osteuropäischen Geschichte) and the other one is ... "The Catholic Church and Russia: Popes, Patriarchs, Tsars, and Commissars" by Dennis J. Dunn. Yes, you were right, perhaps this is a holy political crusade ([4]) Last point: yes, I am in favour of using "of Moscow" here for the first two Vasilis and probably Ivan III, of always using "Grand Duchy of Moscow" instead of "Muscovy", and of using "Russian" for the inhabitant and the adjective instead of Muscovite (where Muscovite does not mean "of the town of Moscow", of course). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Pieniezny (talk • contribs) 13:27, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 May 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 05:16, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vasily I of Moscow → Vasily I – Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Currently, Vasily I and Vasili I redirect here. Mellk (talk) 23:10, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:NCROY. The modifiers should only be left off for very famous or unambiguous cases where COMMONNAME applies - the default should be to include the country, these rulers are too obscure in English to qualify for a COMMONNAME argument. SnowFire (talk) 04:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per SnowFire. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 10:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:NCROY. Walrasiad (talk) 20:45, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. My mistake. See also Talk:Vasili III of Russia#Requested move 6 May 2023 and Talk:Vasily II of Moscow#Requested move 6 May 2023. Mellk (talk) 21:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:NCROY and WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. The primary redirect is sufficient. Estar8806 (talk) 21:31, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Soft oppose per WP:NCROY and emerging consensus on all three Vasily of Moscow RMs and the Ivan III of Moscow RM. I hadn't seen this RM until now, but I don't think this stands a chance anymore. Better be consistent and keep/make them all of Moscow now. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:39, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Les Sources[edit]

RESOLVED

“Many discussions result in a reasonably clear consensus, so if the consensus is clear, any editor—even one involved in the discussion—may close the discussion” – WP:CR. Reached a concordance over the wording and source. Okiyo9228 (talk) 13:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What’s the best way of reaching a concord on the sources? @Mellk Okiyo9228 (talk) 12:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Both say this clock appeared in the Moscow Kremlin in 1404. But the first source says it is also the first public clock in any Russian city. So this is something that should be mentioned. There sources do not contradict each other. Mellk (talk) 12:51, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t quarrel with any of the aforementioned, what I quarrel with is when you put “of all Russia”, the source should be in harmony with the article. Okiyo9228 (talk) 13:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you do not like the reference to geography, then it can be reworded to "the first in any Russian city". Note that this is how the source words it and was how the article worded it until you changed it recently. Mellk (talk) 13:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you were to do that, then, you would be acting against your intellectual conscience, for I remember when I tried to do the same to the Nevsky article and you didn’t accept it. Wouldn’t “in Moscow” be fine as when I did it before you reverted my edit? Okiyo9228 (talk) 13:07, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, it would not be acting against anything. This is from a reliable source. The clock is notable because it is not the first of its kind in just one city. Mellk (talk) 13:10, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Before I changed it for consistency, the article used “of all Russia”, nonetheless, I assent to change being in favor of “the first in any Russian city”. Okiyo9228 (talk) 13:26, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Consistent with what? Anyway, fine, I will change it then. Mellk (talk) 13:38, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Consistent with the article’s name, for its Vasily I of Moscow. Ivan III, however, is a contentious matter. Okiyo9228 (talk) 13:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, understandable, but it was not a reference to a state. Anyway, I do not think we need to dwell on this. Mellk (talk) 13:46, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]