Talk:Turtle

move

this should be moved to Testudines — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0A:EF40:A24:EE01:9875:76C3:BC0:3C2A (talk) 06:30, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Why? "Turtle" is the clear WP:COMMONNAME. oknazevad (talk) 08:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Only in American English. If you look at tortoise in British dictionaries they describe the land animal and have a separate entry for American English (e.g. Collins). Similarly the turtle lives in the sea in the British definition. Dictionaries are a much better guide of WP:COMMONNAME than the phylogeny. —  Jts1882 | talk  10:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

We should stick to what English language scientific literature uses worldwide. And that by and far uses the word "turtle" as the common name for the whole order when not using a Latin name, because that does reflect the reality of phylogenety. Tortoises are a subset of turtles. Even Australian English, which once reserved the word "turtle" for marine species, has gotten away from that (see the talk page archives for prior discussion). Plus British English is a poor guide based on the science. There are no fully terrestrial species on the island at all, and there hasn't been a semi-aquatic freshwater species native to there in at least five millennia, when the European pond turtle became extirpated. Mentioning British usage within the article is fine, but treating it as normative for a worldwide subject and therefore something that should determine the article title is to give undue weight to one island. oknazevad (talk) 16:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Is turtle the name used in scientific literature? Testudines and chelonians are the names used in English scientific literature to refer to the whole group of shelled reptiles that includes turtles. I guarantee we can both find examples that support our stance, but yours is specific to one dialect of English, whereas mine is agnostic of dialect and understood across the Anglosphere.

Imposing one dialect of English over the scientific terms seems a bad move. 146.199.8.40 (talk) 09:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

How much of the top section is about turtles?

It’s hard to tell what part of the top section is turtle-specific. Things like “a shelled reptile” could be talking about all tortoises and terrapins as well as turtles. 2001:569:5657:1000:A856:2A79:F57:462 (talk) 03:54, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Those are still turtles. Despite what you may have been taught as a child, tortoises are a subset of turtles, not a separate mutually exclusive category. oknazevad (talk) 08:28, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

No, turtles and tortoises are chelonians.

All turtles are chelonians, but not all chelonians are turtles. 146.199.8.40 (talk) 09:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It's worth noting that not all groups of animals have a handy common name, for instance there is no common name for a singular cattle. In that case we have to have prior knowledge of the animal's sex, whether or not they've been castrated, and usually just go with a very generic cow or bull (which are used to cover so many species of mammal!). The fact there is no short snappy word that is used at a pre-school level as a synonym of chelonian does not mean we need to impose one. 146.199.8.40 (talk) 09:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Except that there is, and it's "turtle". And that's how the scientific literature uses the term. The insistence that it's not a subset situation flies in the face of modern common usage across dialects and scientific usage. Just as toads are a subset of frogs, and hares are a subset of rabbits, tortoises are a subset of turtles. oknazevad (talk) 11:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)