Talk:The Summer King (opera)

Requested move 7 August 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:NOTYET, withdrawn. No such user (talk) 09:41, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Summer King (opera) → The Summer King – This page shares the same title as the novel The Summer King. The novel itself has been called into question as a non-notable inclusion at WP. Currently, the opera is far more notable and searched a topic. A simple google search of the title (without the moniker label: opera / novel) will prove the commonality of the opera vs the novel. Requesting the title be given to the opera. Thank you. Maineartists (talk) 11:44, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any evidence that satisfies WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? The article on the novel is certainly older than the one on the opera, so I would be reluctant to support the proposal. Implementing the proposal would also require (a small effort) to correct currently incoming links to the novel. Lastly, moving the novel article before awaiting the result of this RM is bad form. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:24, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the article on the novel is "older". Since the page's creation in 2014 (let alone the book's release in 1999), absolutely nothing new has been added to the article that constitutes coverage or notability: i.e. notable reviews, reprints, awards, mentions, etc. Wikipedia is not a directory WP:NOTDIRECTORY and this article could very well be merged with the list of works to the author here: [1]. Since the opera's inception, coverage has been considerable and continues up to May 2017; with an upcoming national production in 2018 with the Michigan Opera The Summer King: Michigan Opera. Re: moving the novel article - the WP search still associates "The Summer King" with the novel upon search. Simply moving the page to "The Summer King (novel)" was a means to differentiate the two existing works by title (not search). Furthermore, there are no WP links to the novel in relation to the opera; which involves the subject, conductors, singers, et al. Maineartists (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't express myself clearly enough. I have no opinion on whether Wikipedia should have an article on the novel or not. Seeing that we have, and that incoming links from mainspace articles to the page The Summer King all refer to the novel, they would need to be modified. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:41, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael Bednarek: I've just fixed those four links so that won't be a problem (again, remaining unconvinced) In ictu oculi (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unconvinced don't think there's a problem with 22:54, 5 August 2017‎ Maineartists moved page The Summer King to The Summer King (novel): "In preparation for disambiguiation with the opera)" since the 1999 faerie novel by O.R. Melling clearly isn't that notable. But even as an opera fan, not convinced that this new opera by a composer who doesn't even have a bio is automatically WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. There is also a third topic, a prize winning poetry collection ... for whom the poet, like this composer, doesn't have a bio (but which I added to the baseline dab, if this moves then that dab moves). If it's true that this really is the first opera premiered in Pittsburgh then that means it will accrue notability. But right now? Not convinced. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:47, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Great! Thanks all for the weigh-ins. I appreciate the time and consideration of your insights and comments. Obviously, the best result for all was to create the link for the three pages (disambiguation). Thanks. In ictu oculi Any objections to re-wording: "on story of baseball legend Josh Gibson 2017" to more accordingly in keeping with others: "by Daniel Sonenberg, based on the life and career of baseball legend Josh Gibson 2017"? Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 14:09, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, In ictu oculi, for fixing those links. I agree that a new opera will generate more hits in search engines than a somewhat obscure book from 1999, although Google shows at least two mentions for the book in its first 20 results. Wikipedia's page views are unsurprisingly not convincing either way.

The Summer King

The Summer King (novel)

The Summer King (opera)

(Note: the graphs above are live and will change.) In short: beware of WP:Recentism; too soon. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:19, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Maineartists: of course not, go ahead, I was going to do that, but I was checking the year. This source puts it as a 2005-2007 opera https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Y8bQAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA473 but I'm assuming that the 2017 is the first complete performance? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:21, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In ictu oculi Hmmm ... the opera was not complete and did not premiere until 2017. Up until then it was being created for 13 years in various forms: readings, scene selections and concert versions (incomplete). Which does one really choose with all these half "performances"? It seems very odd to say: 2005-2007 when in actuality, one would have to include 2012, 2014, etc. Also: the e-Book is from 2013. I'm sure a revised, updated version would place it as a 2017 premiere, rather than merely 2005, 2007, 2012, 2014, etc performances. Thoughts? Thanks. PS Thanks for the re-word. Maineartists (talk) 14:30, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Probably either 2014 or 2017. Without further info would expect 2014 concert performance, mentioned in the composer's bio, is the relevant date. But happy to let 2017 stand. It's a good article btw. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:08, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is indeed an odd phenomenon; since most contemporary operas listed on WP John Adams Operas, Philip Glass Operas, have a distinct date based on their official premiere. I am quite sure it is because they are far more prominent composers than Sonenberg, and coverage of their "works in progress" were not documented as this "local composer from Maine who makes it big" had been in the press along the way. (I don't mean that in a derogatory way by any means) Until it's recorded in a book such as the one you referenced (thanks for that, by the way), we won't know what is considered the "official" date. It will be curious to see if anything changes from the Pittsburgh "premiere" and the Detroit production. If not, then the Pittsburgh date just might be the one; since changes were made between the 2014 Portland "concert version" and the Pittsburgh premiere. At least, this is what I'm gathering from the references; I never saw any of the "performances" in any form. Thanks for all your help in this! It's a good article because of you, too. Cheers. PS Not sure how to close out the initial move request on this Talk Page / Article. Maineartists (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now. The opera article hasn't seen noticeably greater page views than the novel since it was created. Probably better to revisit once more time has past.[2]--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:05, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The OP has agreed per consensus that current disambiguation of all 3 pages is the best option in this scenario; which has already been carried out. Just waiting for the time to elapse for admin to remove request. Maineartists (talk) 16:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.