Talk:Suicide of Fat Cat

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Title[edit]

@TheGreatPeng: Hi. I would like to say that the title may be a bit strange for native speakers, and I note that there is little English media coverage of this story yet, but if it is reported perhaps a name change could be considered. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 12:12, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tokisaki Kurumi Thanks for your work on this article. Actually, the original title was changed by a native editor to the current one. However, I believe the current title is more formal. You can see an example title in Suicide of Rehtaeh Parsons. Please advise if you have any opinions on the name change for this article. TheGreatPeng (talk) 13:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheGreatPeng: Hi. What I'm actually talking about isn't the "Suicide" issue, it's the "Fat Cat" issue. I saw the log of the name change, but considered that more formal English-language media might use other names - I mean, the current title could be misinterpreted as a cat committing suicide - and that's why I brought it up. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 13:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Tokisaki Kurumi Thank you for your assistance with this. If you don't mind, I plan to submit it for DYK. Could you please consider one DYK hook for me? Best regards. TheGreatPeng (talk) 14:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheGreatPeng: Technically, all hooks in the English Wikipedia must be derived from references. I would suggest hooking up with cats and McDonald's. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 15:06, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheGreatPeng: I looked up the claim about being a lesbian on the internet and found that the claim is currently not widely substantiated, and that it would be better to attribute it. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 15:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I can't find any reliable source to support this claim. TheGreatPeng (talk) 16:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I found this [1] from a Vietnamese newspaper called Sao Star. TheGreatPeng (talk) 16:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I saw a similar statement from SET News yesterday, but I really don't think it's a good idea at the moment. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 18:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheGreatPeng: There is also the problem that the current version often does not match the references, e.g. the reference in the first paragraph of the background does not mention at all things such as the rejection of cohabitation advice and the inability to provide emotional value (although these are mentioned in other references). I'm considering further changes on this, but I'm not sure I have enough energy these days. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 18:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Tokisaki Kurumi The majority of the version has been translated from the Chinese Wikipedia, so there may be some errors. Don't take the references too seriously, and I added extra references even though one reference is more than enough to support this article. TheGreatPeng (talk) 08:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheGreatPeng: Well no, I do take Wikipedia:V as THE PRIMARY. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 09:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Tokisaki Kurumi and TheGreatPeng: If there are no English sources, then I suggest renaming the title to Pinyin romanization but without the diacritics: "Suicide of Pang Mao". This avoids unofficial translation issues, for example which synonym to use. I wouldn't use his real name due to WP:COMMONNAME. ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 17:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong using 'Fat Cat' name is on [2]. But I agree with your suggestion. Thank you. TheGreatPeng (talk) 17:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your swift response @TheGreatPeng: I've found more reliable English sources VOI.ID and Tuoi Tre that primarily use Fat Cat. With these, I don't think there are any issues with either title. So I would retain Fat Cat . ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 18:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I don't think either of these sources would be that representative, but given that numerous more reputable media outlets (even the Sixth Tone or the SCMP) haven't reported it yet, I'm fine with it for now. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 18:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coverage[edit]

A newly registered user said, 'One of the information has been covered by any medium to major news organization.' Really? What a big joke! So, see

When "Fat Cat's Death" Dominates Hot Searches from Lianhe Zaobao, the largest Singaporean Chinese-language newspaper,

there is part 1–7 coverages from China Press, a major Malaysian Chinese-language newspaper,

The "Fat Cat" incident ferments; Chinese public opinion reflects on the bottom line of social morality from Radio Free Asia,

Takeout orders in memory of "Fat Cat" found to be empty or watered down, five catering chain brands apologize from The Paper, a major Chinese digital newspaper,

The Death of Player Fat Cat from Sin Chew Daily, a leading Chinese-language newspaper in Malaysia,

The death of an e-sports boy attracted much attention from netizens: it overshadowed the collapse of Meida Expressway from Deutsche Welle, a major German media,

The tragedy of the fat cat who committed suicide online, is it a relationship issue or a legal issue? from China Digital Times,

The "Fat Cat" incident suddenly became a trending topic on Weibo, and an extramarital affair was revealed from Sound of Hope, an international Chinese-language radio network,

McDonald's Vietnam apologizes for slogan mocking tragic death of Chinese man from VnExpress,

and many more in major media from Southeast Asia, such as [3], [4], [5], [6], [7].

Clearly a case of WP:IDONTLIKE. If you are not happy with these significant coverages, there are many more you can find yourself. Thanks TheGreatPeng (talk) 13:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

(
)
The Shibanpo Yangtze River Bridge where Fat Cat jumped off.
The Shibanpo Yangtze River Bridge where Fat Cat jumped off.
  • ... that following the suicide of Fat Cat (location pictured), McDonald's Vietnam was the target of a boycott after launching a slogan: "If you don't like vegetables, eat chicken with BBQ cheese? Source: Hoang, Vu (7 May 2024). "McDonald's Vietnam apologizes for slogan mocking tragic death of Chinese man". VnExpress International. Retrieved 9 May 2024.
    • Reviewed:
Created by TheGreatPeng (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

TheGreatPeng (talk) 15:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Comment: I would suggest having some alternatives. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 15:30, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this article, although not quite enough to violate my policy of doing my QPQs oldest first. I will say that this article is being edited a lot and is probably not stable. For now, I recommend ALT0a: ... that McDonald's Vietnam was boycotted after appropriating a slogan by a recently deceased Chinese gamer?--Launchballer 15:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • ALT1: ... that a Chinese gamer named Fat Cat tragically died by suicide after transferring a large sum of money to his girlfriend, who wished to end their relationship? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheGreatPeng (talk • contribs)
I'd lose 'tragically' for concision, but I'll let a reviewer make that choice. Full review needed.--Launchballer 18:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hooks must not contain redirects or contractions, although to be fair that's probably not far off the hook I would have suggested. For concision, I suggest ALT2a: ... that when people ordered fast food take-out to commemorate Fat Cat's suicide, multiple restaurants delivered empty packages?--Launchballer 08:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend ALT0a with image. TheGreatPeng (talk) 08:45, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 May 2024[edit]

Suicide of Fat Cat → Suicide of Pangmao – Should use pinyin instead of free translation Coddlebean (talk) 01:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 04:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

None of the English sources mention "Pangmo". TheGreatPeng (talk) 07:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
no Disagree: {{oppose}}: (what template is it to express opposing in en-wiki? {{orz}}) 'Fat Cat' is widely used.[8] After all, it is a simple nickname that doesn't have complex or deep connotations and that can be traslated into English nearly word by word without any argument. Even some geological proper names (like the Yellow River 黄河) are not translated with Pinyin but freely. 自由雨日 (talk) 03:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Straits Times fianlly reported his real name, Fat Cat, and also Pangmao. TheGreatPeng (talk) 09:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also no Disagree. There's no compulsion to use pinyin in English Wikipedia as long as the English version conveys the full facts in an accurate way, and preferably includes the pinyin translation in parenthesis straight after the English naming lead-in. Ref (chew)(do) 18:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move to include "Pangmao" as that's used significantly less often than Fat Cat in English sources. I think it's worth thinking about potentially using "Liu Jie" as that does appear pretty often in sources but Fat Cat seems to be the commonname. Skynxnex (talk) 17:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose using 'Liu Jie'. 'Liu Jie' apparently isn't even as often as 'Pangmao' (of course no mention 'Fat Cat'); and particularly in mainland China, you can't find his real name in any media. 自由雨日 (talk) 01:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • information Note:: A recent story in Sixth Tone, which WP:RSP considers reliable for non-political stories, uses "Pangmao" for most mentions of the subject. Zylostr (talk) 02:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree I don't think using sense-for-sense translation in this title is a proper way to present the event, especially when it comes to a person's name.
Also, there are lots of latest news reported 胖猫 as Pangmao 1 2
Another example is Zhemao hoaxes (折毛事件), the Wikipedian's name 折毛 was translated as "curled hair" but Zhemao Vitsuha (talk) 03:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Vitsuha, Thank you for your opinion. However, as a Chinese native speaker, I must say that '胖猫' is not like '折毛': the word (or phrase) '胖猫' in Chinese is very very simple and will be totally understood as 'fat cat' in Chiense without any other deep or diffrent meanings; but '折毛' sounds very very weird, which most Chiense speakers don't know what it wants to mean and will not understand as or associate with 'curled hair', and which is just like being combined with two Chinese characters totally randomly. 自由雨日 (talk) 04:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vitsuha: Sorry, I didn't click your user page to see you are Chinese too when I sent the message above. But what I expounded above is still tenable. 自由雨日 (talk) 04:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine.
I would say that Chinese people have the inclination to do sense-for-sense translation, both from Foreign Language to Chinese and Chinese to other languages (mostly English), but actually it doesn't fit the tradition in English, and would be weird to read by English speaker. Moreover, it might cause ambiguity in the context.
Like in English, Fat Cat has other meanings, and it is a political term mostly to describe a rich political donor and lobbyist, which would cause confusions among English readers. Vitsuha (talk) 08:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for introducing the knowledge about translation (especially the other meanings of 'Fat Cat'), which I indeed didn't realize. If 'Fat Cat' had no other meaning (like '胖猫' in Chinese), I would still insist to use sense-for-sense translation; but as it does, it will indeed cause confusion. I have to say honestly, that transliterating (the way of translation itself) is weired to me, especially in Chiense, where I hate translated-by-sound words (especially long names with many syllables) and even wish most of proper names be translated freely (like Oxford '牛津'). 自由雨日 (talk) 08:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure.
Because I'm also a Chinese speaker, so I also feel uncomfortable to read some words translated by their sounds, like those current days in Japan and Korea, like 如何评价“片假名是翻译界的毒瘤”？. Because the meaning of Chinese characters can be understood with their forms, which could not be achieved by English, and Chinese people do like to translate with words their meanings, and this would be useful in Chinese context, but not in Latin-alphabet based languages such as English and French.
Moreover, in my opinion, when it comes to a person or a place's name, even in Chinese, we should not translate by its meaning. You mentioned 牛津, which comes from Ox (牛) and ford (浅滩, 渡口), but do you know that the famous strait near Constantinople, Bosporus, could also be translated as 牛津, here I copied some texts from that article:

The name of the strait comes from the Ancient Greek Βόσπορος (Bósporos), which was folk-etymologised as βοὸς πόρος, i.e. "cattle strait" (or "Ox-ford"[1][2]), from the genitive of boûs βοῦς 'ox, cattle' + poros πόρος 'passage', thus meaning 'cattle-passage', or 'cow passage'.[3] This is a reference to the Greek mythological story of Io, who was transformed into a cow and condemned to wander the Earth until she crossed the Bosporus, where she met the Titan Prometheus, who comforted her by telling her that she would be restored to human form by Zeus and become the ancestor of the greatest of all heroes, Heracles (Hercules).

So practically in Chinese we can translate 博斯普鲁斯海峡 as 牛津海峡, we did not do this and this did not cause ambiguity is because University of Oxford is too famous, and we did not translate Bosporus by its meaning. Vitsuha (talk) 09:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's natural for love to hurt[edit]

Cheating is natural in love and I've experienced it but it shouldn't be punishable by death yes I know he made a mistake we all make mistakes maybe that's why he did it because the girl didn't love him anymore that's why he didn't break up because he knew that maybe Fatcat will be hurt but the girl is wrong, she doesn't have the courage to tell him and why will he be sentenced to death if you are in his position, will you do that? 103.120.69.119 (talk) 09:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ There is a certain (Oxonian) tradition of equating the name "Oxford" with "Bosporus", see e.g. Wolstenholme Parr (1820), Memoir on the propriety of the word Oxford, esp. p. 18.
  2. ^ Parr, Wolstenholme (1820). Memoir on the propriety of the word Oxford, as applied to a seminary of learning; read to the Instituto of Padoua, in the month of July last. Liverpool: William Grapel. p. 18. OCLC 47642720.
  3. ^ Liddell, Henry George; Scott, Robert (1940). "Βόσπορος". A Greek–English Lexicon. Oxford: Clarendon Press – via Perseus Digital Library.
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