Talk:Steampunk/Archive 11

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Culture Clash in the Culture sec.

We do not need to add something to this section every time we spot - or think we spot - steampunk someplace. I thought this topic was covered on this talk page at some point in the past. Maybe it was another article I was thinking about, but this thing is going to look stupid and quite the mess if these additions keep occurring. Good thing I caught the unnecessary addition of Justin Bieber's video.

Perhaps a few screams will appear here when people see what absolute junk I removed from the article, but junk it is and junk it remains. Let's word an intelligent paragraph that cites a few examples of steampunk in common culture, instead of listing each individual time it pops up somewhere. Djathinkimacowboy 20:33, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Article Reorganization

Hello everyone. I was reading this article today, and I didn't find it to be intuitively laid out. In particular, I thought the "Steampunk as Popular Fiction" section felt very clunky to read. I think this section could be preceded by a small "Style" or "Common Themes" section where the distinctive or defining characteristics of Steampunk fiction could be laid out for the reader. This section could be populated with illustrative examples already referenced in the current "Steampunk as Popular Fiction" section. Then, there could be a "Subgenres" after that that includes fantasy steampunk stories and other variants and provides illustrative contrasting examples. Thoughts? BajcztheDamned (talk) 05:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm contemplating a broader reorganization and expansion, largely based on the organization of the Science Fiction entry, and invite comments:

1. History
   1. The term "steampunk"
   2. Precursors and inspirations
2. Media
   1. Literary
      1. Victorian
      2. (American) Western
      3. Post-apocalyptic
      4. Postcolonial/Global -- still working on how to lay this out.
      5. Time travel
   2. Television and Film
   3. Fashion and Design
3. Fandom and community
   1. Conventions, clubs, and organizations
   2. Fanzines and online fandom
4. See also
5. References
6. External links

Holzman-Tweed (talk) 20:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

In the absence of comment, I will move forward with the reorganizaton. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 15:11, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Last Exile in anime list

I was wondering if Last Exile could fit in the anime examples for steampunk in this article. thank you93.34.58.34 (talk) 21:54, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Steampunk music

Has to include Gilbert and Sullivan, surely.-- Derek Ross | Talk 03:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

There are many others in a similar position to them. The question is once again, "Is Jules Verne Steampunk?", or are these in-period precursors something else, such as "Influences to Steampunk". Personally I'd list them, but make it clear that these are the Victorian-Edwardian sources that steampunk takes as its source material, not music created by steampunks in the sense of Pocketwatch, The Men Who... et al. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Undoubtedly influences and of course there are others. Operetta and musical theatre in general but also Music Hall acts such as Harry Champion et al. I would have thought that just as Steampunk costume and literature finds inspiration in the period, music should too. Otherwise it's music by steampunk enthusiasts rather than steampunk music. In some ways one could view the music from Oliver! or Half a Sixpence as steampunk even though they were not written by steampunks. At the least they are pseudo-Victorian/Edwardian written long after the era ended but based on its materials. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Almost no "steampunk music" takes its inspiration from the period. The most sourcing one finds is a certain fondness for Victorian melodrama in the lyrics (and Jack the Ripper about twice per album). There's no musical crossover I'm aware of: the styles are different, the instrumentation is different. I've organised a couple of steampunk festivals, so I've listened to and auditioned a lot of "steampunk bands". I've also played Harry Champion at events. There's just very little crossover between. The closest I think would be to compare today's Jarmean? to Oh! What a Lovely War — and even that is a '60s musical that is itself a reinvention of the Edwardian original, rather than the primary source.

Many steampunks are recycled goths. In the music, it shows. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's a pity. But it is what it is. No getting round that. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Three examples of Steampunk music with some inspiration from the period that occur readily to me are Emperor Norton's Stationary Marching Band, the Slomski Brothers, and Painless Parker. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 18:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

That's more encouraging. I'll check them out. Thanks! -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Interesting - maybe the US is basing itself more firmly on the past than the UK is. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I particularly like the idea of music using instruments like the barrel organ, the calliope, or the pyrophone. Painless Parker's idea for an automated harp fits into that environment beautifully. That seems to me to capture the essence of steampunk. -- Derek Ross | Talk

A big difference with modern steampunk music is just the use of electronic amplification. No amplification in period meant that anyone performing to an audience needed a backing band. Singer+guitar just couldn't work. Yet today, who can afford a large band? So this apparently trivial change actually shifts the whole game. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

The section needs to be written anyway. What was originally intended as a spectrum has become a hodge-podge, as everyone wanted to toss their favorite band into a run-on sentence. Perhaps if all the bands' names were removed to the "works" page, and the sentence just listed the various styles? --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 02:33, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like this section needs to be divided into music inspiration and band fashion. The bands I would recognise as having steampunk influences would be the Beatles (based on the songs in the yellow submarine film), Vernian Process, Steam Powered Giraffe, The Cog Is Dead, Kaiti Kink Ensemble, Dr. Steel, Yann Tiersen some of Laibach. Others I would think about but probably not include would be The Clockwork Dolls, Jeff Wayne, Tiger Lillies, Voltaire, Viva Voce, Bjork (especially songs like Vessel Shimenawa but whether enough of her material is suitable enough to be called steampunk is questionable), Joe Hisaishi. Then there are a lot of individual songs that I would think about but probably not include: Shinedown (Her Name Is Alice), Yello (stalakdrama), The Stranglers (Golden Brown), Madness (Waiting for the Ghost Train), Brian and Michael (Matchstalk men and matchstalk cats and dogs), Aphex Twin (Nannou). Then it would be jazz artists (Tom Waits 'Calliope'). But I personally, feel that steampunk is a fashion movement (visual style) rather than a audio movement. Anything considered industrial could arguably be included in this section.

Steampunk is quite a bit more than just a "fashion movement." But you are right in that there is no set style of music that can be properly termed steampunk - which was the original intent of the section. (Also I would include Voltaire in your first list. Although he is primarily a Goth musician, he has been performing at more and more steampunk events and seems to be making a successful crossover, as the Unextraordinary Gentlemen did.) It might be a good idea though to note those bands that embrace the steampunk aesthetic, and note that more and more mainstream bands, while not being steampunk per se, have been incorporated the look and feel into some of their music or stage productions. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:57, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Nicky Minaj

I reverted an edit that removed mention of a Nicki Minaj video with Steampunk elements. The fact that Steampunk has begun to be reacted to by mainstream media is notable and should be discussed. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 04:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I removed it originally, and I would support its removal again. This is a trivial use of steampunk by her - she hasn't "turned steampunk", it's merely one video where a stylist decided that steampunk would be today's theme. This is not original and too transient - Justin Bieber did it first a year or so back. If we're going to include "first mainstream appropriation of steampunk in a music video", then Bieber is the one worth mentioning, not Minaj. Secondly there's still the regular problem that importance isn't commutative: importance of steampunk to this video doesn't mean that this video is important to steampunk.

The idea isn't to point out the first use of Steampunk in a video, the idea is to discuss how expressions of Steampunk are becoming increasingly reflected in mainstream media -- it is precisely because neither Mr. Bieber nor Ms. Minaj have "turned Steampunk" that their use of Steampunk imagery is notable. The paragraph probably belongs in a section on Steampunk's influence, though, rather than a part of the discussion of Steampunk music. There should probably also be some mention that Steampunks are split on whether this influence is a positive or negative. (Really? "Appropriation"? Really?) Holzman-Tweed (talk) 13:04, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I would quite like to see (if we're doing Bieber) a mention of steampunk TV adverts. McCain's oven chips (in the UK) have used a couple of steampunk adverts with a very strong steampunk theme (cute Heath Robinson robots). Andy Dingley (talk) 08:14, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Great idea to expand upon a discussion of Steampunk's influence on mainstream media! Go for it!Holzman-Tweed (talk) 13:04, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Horror connection to Steampunk

The question was asked what connection there is between horror and steampunk. For one, elements of horror may be found in the use of zombies as a trope, for example in the works of Cherie Priest and George Mann. Eventually I'll update the horror section of the article to go into more detail. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 14:41, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Seth Grahame-Smith's novels, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies and Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter, would certainly qualify. And I've heard people speak of Mary Shelley, Bram Stoker and H.P. Lovecraft as steampunk precursors before (they were mentioned as such in the recent steampunk museum exhibit in Anaheim, CA, for instance). --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 16:40, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I've heard this mentioned in a few places as a subgenre, "Steamgoth", a synthesis of steampunk and goth. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 22:57, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Uhm, yeah, I would not agree with this. I believe "goth" as a subculture has little connection to classic 'horror' novels. Steamgoth as a tongue-in-cheek term seems to be sort of a reference to 'steampunks who wear black' rather than the traditional steampunk browns... and 'goths' that participate in SP events and occasionally exhibit a steampunk aesthetic in their choices, of course it's all a bit mixed up, as goths have been doing neo-victorian before SP really got going strong. Anyways, I think delving into 'what is steamgoth' is a distraction from Holzman's initial comment and the general topic of horror and steampunk. Centerone (talk) 09:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

New Books

(I made the 'New Books' topic so people who want to request to include new books may, yay!)

"The Hungry City Chronicles", by Philip Reeve. Do they count? If so, can someone add them, since I'm too lazy to do so? (If not then I guess I will. Can't hurt to ask though.)

--Nomuit Jargon (talk) 22:00, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

See Mortal Engines Quartet, although most of the articles were recently deleted as not being notable. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

It would be great if people could enter new books in the list of Steampunk works! I don't think we want to add every new Steampunk book to the main article unless the books has some sort of role that would make it relevant in an encyclopedic sense. Hard to see how any new book would fit the bill. Books that have been around long enough to impact the genre in a way that's discussed by reputable sources is another story. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for responding, Holzman-tweed. I'll do that (unless someone else has already beaten me to it), and any other works I think fit I'll mention on that page's talk page. Thanks,

Nomuit Jargon (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Music section rewrite

The music section is in need of a serious rewrite. What was originally intended to be a short sentence depicting the broad range of musical styles has now become a rambling run-on sentence where people just keep tacking on their favorite artists. I'm thinking it should just note the various styles or a range of styles (and perhaps make note of Abney Park being recognized by some media as the "quintissential" steampunk band), but with all the bands' names moved off to the list of steampunk works page with maybe a link to that section, unless there's a reason for a band to be listed as noteworthy. Also that the mainstream is catching on to the genre is notable and needs to be mentioned, but that section should also not become a catch-all for every band that uses a pair of goggles in their video. Thoughts? --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 05:29, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

"a rambling run-on sentence where people just keep tacking on their favorite artists."

That's pretty much the state of steampunk music.

Look at things like the Oswestry "Stick some bands on it and call it steampunk" festival. There's no coherence to the lineup, other than they're bands that could be persuaded to play a "steampunk" event, and that "steampunks" would pay money to see them. Even I wouldn't claim that Rogora Khart are "steampunk", yet they're one of the most popular and well-received bands when they play a steampunk event. I've never seen any other band, except possibly Professor Elemental, get an audience up and dancing like they do.

There is no "steampunk music". A few years in and it remains as eclectic as ever. A well-sourced list is about as good as we're likely to get. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:17, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

This is totally not NPOV, but am I the only one who thinks that Abney Park is only steampunk in aesthetics, and only seemingly because of marketing purposes? UGH! Soooo bad. Centerone (talk) 12:48, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. However they are the most successful steampunk band, and recognized as such by the media.

As a conversation went in the Music for Steampunks group on Facebook, "true" steampunk music would be to music what steampunk literature is to literature. That is, a synthesis of 19th/early 20th century with present day and futuristic sounds. Sounds like Dr. Steel (jazz/accordion with industrial/hiphop) and Sir Reginald Pikedevant (rap with barbershop) probably come closest in that regard. At any rate, also entirely neither here nor there with regard to my original topic. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 10:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Film

This section seems to be undeveloped. I would start with reference to the original Flash Gordon film in the 1930s and the subsequent series in the 1950s (and possibly the 1980 film). Then there is the mouse on the moon, the first men in the moon, and all the jules verne and HG Wells type films, The yellow submarine, chitty chitty bang bang. City of Lost Children, Micmacs, Back to the Future 3, Sky Captain and the World Tomorrow, League of extraordinary Gentlemen, the recent Sherlock Holmes films, Hugo, possibly Iron Sky?, Van Helsing? The illusionist? Delicatessen? and possibly Brothers Grimm?

Flash Gordon? Seriously? In none of its incarnations has Flash Gordon been remotely steampunk. Pulp, sure. Dieselpunk if you really have to be specific but not steampunk. Ditto Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang you could probably justify but how on earth is Yellow Submarine - a movie firmly set in the psychadelia of the 60s - in any way steampunk? Just because a movie involves machines in a historical time period, doesn't make it steampunk. ~ Brother William (talk) 10:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree. Flash Gordon was Raygun Gothic. Sky Captain was dieselpunk, as is the upcoming Iron Sky. Yellow Submarine was psychedelic. I would say that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Hugo and the Sherlock Holmes films are often referenced as being steampunk so they would fit, but some of the others you've mentioned aren't remotely steampunk. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe also worth mentioning in the Television and film section is the works of the character Miguelito Quixote Loveless in the Wild, Wild West TV series, and then the recasting of his character as Dr. Arliss Loveless in the film version, starring Kenneth Branagh as Loveless. The latter Loveless' creations, in particular, definitely had a steampunk feel to them, and the time frame of the story is probably on the cusp of the Victorian era. Chrismykrantz (talk) 02:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

How about the recent Martin Scorcese film Hugo? Not really steampunk certainly, but a lot of the train station scenery sure had that kind of feel to me. Shocking Blue (talk) 14:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Lincoln

Lincoln is a City, not a town as stated in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.51.11.6 (talk) 09:25, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Took out word "town" when I fixed the dab link. Think you are right. Thank you. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 09:34, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Lincoln is definitely a City...I live there. Any place with a Cathedral in England is a city. A few are little more than the size of a village. There are other Cities without Cathedrals also (England can be confusing!)Anyway, thank you for mentioning my home City!==

Brecon and Beverley make it even more confusing. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:50, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Hyphenation

The article quotes K.W. Jeter's letter where the word seems to have originated; the spelling used is "steampunks". However, a page on Jesse Sheidlower's web site is cited as a source, and it no longer shows the quotation at all.

The thing is that if you look at the OED Online, they also quote the letter, but they have the spelling as "steam-punks". Since quotations in the OED are checked, this suggests to me that the WP article has it wrong.

However, using Google Books, I found two printed sources where the letter is also quoted, and they both have "steampunks". These were World Weavers: Globalization, Science Fiction, and The Cybernetic Revolution by Kin-yuen Wong, Gary Westfahl, and Amy Kit-sze Chan; and Dierchomai Dystopia: Dunkle Visionen & Lichte Bilder (in German) by Josef Xaver Daller. But book publishers might very well consider the hyphenation just an aspect of style that they could alter, like the way the four sources I've cited use three different styles of quotation marks and would not consider this wrong.

I emailed Jesse Sheidlower. He thinks the quotation was dropped from his page due to a database error, but told me: "everything I have indicates that Jeter's letter has a hyphen (though I don't have a screenshot handy)."

I have not been able to locate a library with the April 1987 issue of Locus, so I'm reluctant to edit the article. But I believe the WP article probably has the wrong spelling. Does anyone have access to a copy of the issue rather than another source quoting it?

--142.205.241.254 (talk) 18:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Jesse Sheidlower has now fixed the database error and the quotation appears on his page again. As he's associated with the OED I'm going to treat him as a more reliable source and change the spelling in the article.

(same person, different IP address) --65.94.112.88 (talk) 06:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Steampunk location

such as Victorian era Britain or "Wild West"-era United States

It's in Japan too. This seems a bit West-centric and it would be a good idea to use a country not considered to be in Western countries.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 14:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, this would be great to expand international coverage. Do you have any sources that we can use? Photos or English language text would be even better. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd also be interested in seeing Meiji-era steampunk and adding it here. I know there are Japanese steampunks, but I haven't seen any Japanese-inspired attire or craftsmanship before. Arigato, Kinno-san. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 17:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I would like to propose some sort of connection to Bioshock such as this

Video Games

Steam punk with a 1960s theme appears to be influential in the style of the popular game series Bioshock. This status may be contested by those with strict definitions of steam punk and perhaps helps to create a subject matter for defining steam punk.

http://retrospeculation.blogspot.com/2009/03/is-bioshock-steampunk.html

The preceding URL might be a source. I never heard of steam punk till today and the second I figured out what it was bioshock came to mind. There must be other video games that fit this genre too. However not being an expert I opted to offer this as discussion first. Rudysloup (talk) 17:48, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Three points:

BioShock isn't "1960s".

BioShock isn't steampunk. Long past discussions on this, if you look.

BioShock Infinite might turn out to be steampunk, if and when it's ever released. Despite WP:CRYSTAL there has been a WP article on it for some years, even though the game still won't be released any time even this year.

Andy Dingley (talk) 18:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura and the Thief (series) come to mind as examples of steampunk games. Bioshock: never even considered it as possible steampunk. It fits in the Dieselpunk category though. Jarkeld (talk) 19:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The Chaos Engine a Victorian steampunk computer game (inspired by the Gibson/Sterling novel) released in 1993, with a sequel in 1996. Cult classic. Definitely deserves a mention. http://www.bitmap-brothers.co.uk/our-games/past/chaos-engine.htm Hillbillyholiday81 (talk) 23:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The entire series of Myst employs 19th century steam powered devices and machinery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.139.221.50 (talk) 17:23, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

A suggestion : Add the Thief series to the current examples. It has a rather unique and ubiquotous blend of medieval architecture with early industrial era-inspired steampunk aesthetics, and the conflict between the advances in technology and the world of old (magic, nature) is one of the main recurring themes. Furthermore, the series started in 1998, long before steampunk was popular in the mainstream, whether in gaming or other media. I think the series definitely deserves at least a minor mention. --ZemplinTemplar (talk) 20:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

If you think it should be mentioned, there is nothing stopping you from adding it to the article! Centerone (talk) 03:47, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Category: Steampunk music

While we slept, the category of Steampunk music was arbitrarily deleted from the wiki. There was a very short CFD discussion, of which only one recognized steampunk moderator gave any input. I know I certainly wasn't informed of this action and I doubt any of the other regular contributors to the genre were either. I have recreated the category and am in the process of re-indexing the various musicians that would pertain. Any help in this task (and in refining the description on the category page) will be appreciated.

I do however suggest that this category be renamed to "Steampunk musicians", since it is true that there isn't a definitive steampunk genre. Or having subcategories of steampunk music as there are subcategories for other music such as folk. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 12:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

You can try to recreate the category under a different name, but you must be able to get around the rationales used to delete the old one. And very quickly, too: recreating something right after it had been deleted is very, very frowned upon and you will have to be able to defend yourself immediately. I missed out on the discussion, because I did not have the category bookmarked: don't be annoyed because you didn't either. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 13:27, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I was told by another moderator on here that creating the category under a different name would be even more frowned upon and possibly bannable, and that since it was a bad call it should be challenged directly. But the rationale for deleting the category in the first place was not sound, and needs to be reverted. There are a lot of musicians that identify as steampunk musicians that now do not have a category, which is absurd.

I've discussed with Andy Dingley and now also with Torchiest, and Torchiest is also ok with a name change. I suggest "Steampunk musicians", since it's much easier to define who the musicians are than what the music is. (Torchiest suggested an alternative: "Category:Steampunk-themed bands".) And it can be further subcategorized by musical genre the way the category of folk musicians is. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 14:59, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

The Category:Steampunk Music page has now been flagged for speedy deletion. If you feel it should not be speedily deleted, please feel free to go there and express your opinion on the talk page. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:29, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

And the page was just speedily deleted - despite three mods weighing in on the talk page against its deletion. I think this needs to immediately go into arbitration. Andy, you said you were going to handle that? --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 20:27, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I've raised it with User talk:SchuminWeb. Let's see how that goes for starters. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It was an extremely poor decision to delete the category. Hopefully this will be fixed. - Bilby (talk) 21:30, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Apparently we're being ignored. And the mods that had a hand in this deletion are being rather belligerent about the whole thing. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 15:11, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

What the hell?? OK, no I didn't have it book marked either but you'd think maybe even a note here on the steampunk talk would have been polite but whoever proposed its deletion. ~ Brother William (talk) 14:10, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Just a note for update: the category was reinstated after review. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:36, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

WorldCat Genres

Hello, I'm working with OCLC, and we are algorithmically generating data about different Genres, like notable Authors, Book, Movies, Subjects, Characters and Places. We have determined that this Wikipedia page has a close affintity to our detected Genere of steampunk-fiction. It might be useful to look at [1] for more information. Thanks. Maximilianklein (talk) 23:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

You've got a program that suggests a Wikepedia page about steampunk might be closely related to the genre of steampunk-fiction? That must have taken you ages. ~ Brother William (talk) 20:03, 28 February 2013 (UTC)