Talk:Sri Lankan Tamils/Archive 3

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Reliability of the links

Some of the facts in the article are misleading. For an example article says Vanniars are native to Sri Lanka. Then it has a link to a book. But the linked book (page 59, page 67) says vanniars are warriors of the Maghas army in 1215. Content in the article and content of the links are completely different. Himesh84 (talk) 15:14, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

From a Sri Lankan perspective, the fact that Vannias amongst Veddas and Sinhalese and Vannian(r) amongst Tamil speakers of many caste backgrounds use the tile leads to historians to derived it from Prakrit/Sinhalese word for forest Vanna. The fact that it sounds very similar to Vanniar in Tamil nadu also leads to many people speculating about the connection without actual evidence, but both words may be etymologically related leading to the confusion but not in ethnic connection. But nevertheless Pandara Vannian or Bandara Vannia for the Sinhalese and the Anuradhapura Veddas who claimed to be Vannias to early explorers, a connection to India would would sound impossible, these are clearly locals sporting the Vannia title. The fact that eastern Mukkuvas also use the title is an indication, it is more of a title than a caste name in Sri Lanka.Vanniar_(Chieftain) article has some references, if you ignore the myth that has been added of late to the article, the references may guide you in your quest for knowledge.Kanatonian (talk) 17:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Crime section

I have re-removed the crime section. The reason is that it's a clear WP:SYNTH violation, in that it collects a number of different criminal acts that happened to involve Tamils, and then implies that this is some sort of rising trend. But there is no specific sourced reason to connect the events. Furthermore, implying that there is some particular negative trait (criminality) among diaspora Tamils may be a violation of WP:BLPGROUP unless its backed by extremely high quality sources and is extremely specific. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:11, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Tamils in SL

Refer Demographics_of_Sri_Lanka to see percentage of ethnic groups in SL. Sri Lankan Tamils are not the only Tamils live in Sri Lanka. Sri Lankan Tamils used to one ethnic group. Rest of the Tamils introduced with different names. There are 3 Tamil ethnic groups lives in SL.

Census 2011.

Sri Lankan Tamils 11.21% Sri Lankan Moors 9.23% Indian Tamils 4.16%

See Tamils in Sri Lanka --Himesh84 (talk) 09:57, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

What's your point?--obi2canibetalk contr 16:24, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
No point. Just for fun
It was to stop confusion in | this edit. This page is about SLTs, not about up country tamils or who under Tamils in Sri Lanka --Himesh84 (talk) 06:12, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
FYI Sri Lankan Moors are not Tamils. They do not consider themselves to be Tamils and they don't all speak Tamil. Those Moors who live amongst Sinhalese speak Sinhalese. Once again you are trying to make a point.--obi2canibetalk contr 20:59, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Don't try to teach me about SL from Canada. Those Moors who live amongst Sinhalese speak Tamil as their first language. Also they may speak Sinhalese. Good luck with your next assumptions. --Himesh84 (talk) 16:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Please provide a reliable source which states that all Moors speak Tamil (Himesh84 isn't a reliable source).--obi2canibetalk contr 13:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamils are natives claim

Please come back with reliable reference to add SLTs are native. There is opinion SLTs comes to Sri Lanka with kalinga Magha who prepared background to establish Kingdom of Jaffna. So what ever going to add to the page should go with reliable reference. --Himesh84 (talk) 09:05, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I have a question, to try to advance the dialogue. If I understand you correctly, Himesh84, you are saying that SLTs may not be natives, because they may have emigrated to Sri Lanka before or around 1215. Is that correct? If so, you're using a definition of "native" that does not correspond with one in the dictionary. A native is simply someone born in a particular country. For example, I am of German descent, but my ancestors have lived in the US for about 70-100 years. That makes me a native of the United States. I don't understand how you could say, "These people have only been here for 800 years, so they're not natives". Qwyrxian (talk) 10:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
As far as I read native used to mentioned first civilized people in the country when there are few. Look into this.
native Australian - a dark-skinned member of a race of people living in Australia when Europeans arrived
So Europeans are not native Australians. ( They are not dark) and if they are natives, Europeans should not used after when.
But I am not fluent in English like you, So I guess your description is correct --Himesh84 (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Reply: Natives are all people those who hail from a geographical/political nation.And Sri Lankan Tamils belong to Sri Lanka and have their roots there.They are not a world-homogeneous community who only 'live' there.

This article is a further sub-classification to the Tamil People(who live and hail from many nations across the world) in general where your argument may possibly apply.

--CuCl2 14:34, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

There is no evidence to suggest today's Sri Lankan Tamils are descended from those who came in the middle ages. As Sri Lankan Tamil people#History states there is evidence of Tamil settlements on the island going back to the 5th century BCE. Given the close proximity of India it is likely that Tamils migrated to the island over a long period (many centuries). Some may have come before the middle ages, some after. Borders and immigration controls are a modern concept, people used to migrate freely.
All humans are immigrants. "Native" is a political term used by many to exclude a particular group of people. An arbitrary date is chosen, everyone who came before that date is described as "native" and those who came after that date is described as "immigrant". The Tamils migrated to the island from Southern India. Sinhalese claim to be descended from Prince Vijaya who migrated to the island from northern India. Even the tribes who are said to have lived on the island before Vijaya arrived (Naga, Yaksha, Raksha, Deva) migrated to the island. Or does Himesh84 believe these tribes evolved separately on the island (and aren't therefore homo sapiens)?
Himesh84, why did you chose "native Australian", why not "native"? Are you trying to make a point?
  • Native - 1. Existing in or belonging to one by nature; innate; 2. Being such by birth or origin; 3. Being one's own because of the place or circumstances of one's birth.--obi2canibetalk contr 20:55, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, native can mean what you say, Himesh, but that's not the most common meaning; it usually only picks up that meaning in cases where there is an explicit contrast; the only 2 times I know that it has that meaning is for "Native Americans" and "native Australians". But the second even sounds a bit odd to me; the first works because it's now a proper noun--a capitalized term with a specific meaning. But used in an uncapitalized sense, as it is in this article, "native" almost always takes on the meaning of "being born there." I can guarantee you that me claiming to be a "European native", when I've never even been to the continent, is wrong. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:20, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't trying to make point. If some English expert (except obi) told me I will accept it. I had only two options. Native Austrians and Native Americans. I don't know other areas (except Rajarata) in which some group settled after original people. But native American term had been corrupted. In one film (virgin smuggling) a Mexican child told to a USA super hero he had lot of American friends. superhero got surprises hearing that. Child then again said all Mexicans are Americans. So America term is bit unclear to me since it can used to refer USA, North America, South America, and collective area of South and North America. --Himesh84 (talk) 05:01, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

fixing factual errors

  • SLT have lived on the island since around the 2nd century BCE - references hasn't said Sri Lankan Tamils. It could be Indian Tamils or Muslims who speaks Tamil as mother language.
  • Sri Lankan Tamil literature on topics including religion and the sciences flourished during the medieval period in the court of the Jaffna Kingdom. - Need some references to see what was in Jaffna at medieval period.
  • One-third of Sri Lankan Tamils now live outside Sri Lanka. - Countries don't keep numbers based on sub ethnic groups. Sri Lankan Tamils used to call Tamils with Sri Lankan Nationality. There are several tamil groups in SL.
  • civil war that began in 1983 led to more than 800,000 Tamils being forced from their homes within Sri Lanka, and many have left the country for destinations such as Canada, India and Europe. - Need sources.
  • diversitywatch article talking about Indian Tamils (minority Tamils (15-20 percent; primarily Hindu, originating in Southern India) - Not relavant to this article. - Removing claim --Himesh84 (talk) 18:44, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
You are now causing problems for the sake of it. Read the rest of the article, not just the lead. The references are given there. For the record, Indian Tamils and Indian Moors are those brought to Ceylon by the British in the 19th/20th century, Sri Lankan Moors are those descended from Arab traders and all other Tamils are Sri Lankan Tamils.--obi2canibetalk contr 14:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
And Sri Lankan Tamils came during 12th century.
In WP we don't like to do assumptions. The sources given don't have any relationship with Sri Lankan Tamils. can't find Sri Lankan Tamils in -eg: laurasianacademy.com --Himesh84 (talk) 16:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

"The Jaffna Tamil dialect and the Indian Tamil dialects are not mutually intelligible." - Not correct

"The Jaffna Tamil dialect and the Indian Tamil dialects are not mutually intelligible". This statement is not accurate. For most part Jaffna Tamils and Indian Tamils can understand each other, except for few words and accent. This is like saying British English and Southern American English are not mutually intelligible. Please correct this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.90.153.3 (talk) 19:03, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

External link

Ceylon Tamil link seems to me ok for adding under external link. --AntonTalk 13:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Indian people which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Edit request

A non-free image has been added to the info box - could image 6 - File:S. J. V. Chelvanayakam.jpg - be replaced by File:Selva memorial.jpg please?--obi2canibetalk contr 12:35, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it fails WP:NFCCP#10c, so Done I partially reverted the edit where it was added by NesJan (talk · contribs). --Redrose64 (talk) 15:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Link to notable Sri Lankan tamil academic

Would it be appropiate to include a link to the article Valentine Joseph in here? Thanks - Heptanitrocubane (talk) 11:28, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

No.--Obi2canibe (talk) 15:53, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

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Languages spoken

Large portions of Sri Lankan Tamils speak Sinhala and/or English in addition to Tamil, especially among Tamils who live outside of the Northern and Eastern Provinces. Its strange how this is not widely detailed on the internet. Here are some anecdotes from Sri Lankans. To say that all Sri Lankan Tamils only speak Tamil in a country that is majority Sinhala speaking would be very inaccurate.--Blackknight12 (talk) 13:36, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

The last census showed that 33% of Sri Lankan Tamils could speak Sinhala, which is roughly the same as % living in Sinhalese majority areas. 20% could speak English. See table A32 on this.--Obi2canibe (talk) 20:29, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up.--Blackknight12 (talk) 08:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Final atrocities and effect of war on Sri Lankan Tamils is highly relevant to this page

Every Sri Lankan Tamil has been directly affected by the war, and all have been displaced as a result of it, often multiple times. It is highly relevant to include the paragraph on the last stage of war and its immediate aftermath on the SL Tamil ethnic group.

Please see a similar page which recounts similar effects of mass atrocities on a particular ethnic group during war time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

Oz346 (talk) 12:50, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Long winded introduction full of repetition

I have removed the following additions to the page which were made recently and detract from the overall quality of the page:

The foremost theory of the descendancy of modern Sri Lankan Tamils is that they descend from residents of Jaffna Kingdom, a former kingdom in the north of Sri Lanka and Vannimai chieftaincies from the east.

It is not a theory. It is a well established fact the SL Tamils are descended from residents of Jaffna kingdom and vannimai chieftaincies. There is no debate on this, this has scholary consensus. These are unnecessary words which further bloat the article

The Jaffna kingdom is generally thought to be founded after the invasion of Magha, who is said to have been a prince from the Chodaganga dynasty of Kalinga, a historical region of India.

History of Jaffna kingdom has its own separate page, it is not necessary to elaborate on its history in the introduction to Sri Lankan Tamils.

Another theory states that the Sri Lankan Tamils are descendant of the Nagas—an aboriginal tribe of Sri Lanka—who assimilated to Tamil culture and language around 3rd BCE.

This Naga theory is already mentioned in the subsequent 'history' section, no need for this unnecessary (and unsourced) repetition. See under 'History section' the following sentence:

Another theory states that the Sri Lankan Tamils are descendant of the Nagas, who started to assimilate to Tamil culture and language around 3rd BCE.[27]

Oz346 (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

support for Tamileelam

Sinhala nationalists would like to believe that only the LTTE wanted Tamileelam but that is a complete lie. The Vaddukottai resolution was voted overwhelmingly by the SL Tamil population. It is only because a separate state has been outlawed in Sri Lanka is why Tamils do not have freedom of speech to express themselves. I say this as a Tamil, if there was an UN monitored referendum almost 99% of Tamils would voted for Tamileelam. Such is the lack of faith that the average Tamil has in the Sri Lankan state to treat them equally. It was not always the case, but following the discrimination and persecution that started with 1956 Sinhala only act and climaxed with Black July 1983 it has become the status quo. Sinhalese can not speak for Tamils and their opinions. It is a fact the many Tamil civilians want Tamil Eelam, but most see it as impossible now.Oz346 (talk) 13:18, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Oz346, please see WP:NOTFORUM - SUN EYE 1 17:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Distortions of references

R5bckv is a Sinhalese user from Colombo who is attributing wrong sources to dubious statements in this wikipage (which are tailored to denigrate Tamils). Can someone please join and help moderate the page. I do not want this to degenerate into a mindless revert war. He is repeatedly using a source which describes all Sri Lankan asylum seekers to australia (which includes Sinhalese too) and distorting it to refer exclusively to Tamils. The article clearly refers to ALL sri lankans. thanks. Oz346 (talk) 10:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Oz346 Hi, thanks for your concern. For your information I’m not even a Sri Lankan to begin with let alone Sinhalese, I believe that clears up your concerns about ‘race’. Now that that’s out of the way, let’s discuss about your recent edits. Please stop removing the section about the Canadian government survey and Canada toughening control over its refugee program. Adding “...with up to 20% being of Sinhalese ethnicity” regarding the Australian refugee issue is irrelevant to this article about Sri Lankan Tamils. If you believe it is absolutely necessary to mention about the 20% Sinhalese people you may do so in the relevant page. Also if you can, make bite sized edits and clearly mention what you’ve changed. Please stop editing the page in a manner that violates the neutral point of view and the encyclopedic style Wikipedia. You may reach out to me or discuss here if there are any other concerns. Thank you. R5bckv (talk) 15:48, 24 September 2020 (UTC) —apologies about the multiple edits.

R5bckv I traced the IP address to Colombo. I am not stupid. You are brazenly distorting an article which clearly says:

"The International Organisation for Migration has backed the Australian Immigration Minister’s view that some of the Sri Lankan's arriving in Australia by boat are economic migrants, not refugees."

To claim that the IOM has called 'all Tamils as economic migrants' is a complete utter distortion.Oz346 (talk) 16:24, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Oz346 Hello again. Yes, only Sri Lankans live in Colombo.... Anyways, this article is in relevance to Sri Lankan Tamils. In the case of Refugees arriving in Australia of which whom are accurately described as Sri Lankans does include Tamils. However there is no explanation on you deliberately removing the actions of the Canadian government tightening their policies on refugees, and you insisting on mentioning “...with up to 20% being of Sinhalese ethnicity” regarding the Australian refugee issue -which is not relevant to an article about Sri Lankan Tamils. Please do not use Wikipedia as a platform to direct hate towards a particular race or to propagate personal opinion. Preserve the neutral point of view and the encyclopedic style of Wikipedia articles. Thank you.
Please check the latest revision, I believe it clears up the economic migrant confusion. R5bckv (talk) 17:06, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

R5bckv that Canadian government tightening their policies article has NO REFERENCE TO TAMILS! It is a devious attempt to attribute that policy change on the Tamil asylum seeker migrations by slyly sandwiching that unrelated sentence between two Tamil migration related lines. Pure manipulation meant to denigrate and demonise all the Tamil asylum seekers as economic migrant/frauds.Oz346 (talk) 17:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


Oz346 You point certainly has validity. I’m not the one who initially added the reference. Given the situation it’s probably the best to leave out the reference. I apologize on my behalf. Also a small request to Please keep the contents of the page relevant. Thanks. R5bckv (talk) 18:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Team, I would calm down and stop editing for few days, clear your minds and come back to edit. Edit wars doesn't end well. Kanatonian (talk) 18:39, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

How many total tamils are there in srilanka

This is on my mind Bookie hunger (talk) 16:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

2,269,266 (2011) actually this number higher than 3 million.
Mithila (talk) 02:17, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Grammar in introduction

To add to the recent edits, there is no problem with the grammar of the existing introduction, it is written in fluent and lucid English, and has been satisfactory for years. So reverted to WP:STATUSQUO. Metta79 (talk) 13:35, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Eelam Tamils name

@Cossde: There are several scholarly studies (the highest form of reliable source on wikipedia) which use the term Eelam Tamil:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10304312.2012.731261

"There are two distinct Tamil groups in Sri Lanka. One is the Ceylon/Sri Lankan or Eelam Tamils"

https://academic.oup.com/jrs/article-abstract/24/2/376/1590699

"Sacrifice as Coping: A Case Study of the Cultural-Political Framing of Traumatic Experiences among Eelam Tamils in Norway"

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1057610X.2021.2013753

"The other is an Eelam Tamil human rights activist and political science PhD candidate"

It a valid and common term used by Eelam Tamils (including myself). In Tamil it is commonly used as well.

As a Sinhalese editor you may be unaware of this. In any case, I have provided enough RS showing this. Please do not edit war or vandalise, or I have to report you for misconduct. Oz346 (talk) 12:35, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Thats not how it works. These do not prove common use. Using WP:PRIME, you seem to be attempting WP:OR. You may identifiy yourself as an Eelam Tamils, you can do so. However, you fail to established here that this is a common name used. You can easliy do that by ciiting RS news media that referes to Sri Lankan Tamils as Eelam Tamils to prove common use.Cossde (talk) 12:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Are you making your own rules again? I don't need to cite news sources, when I've cited several scholarly sources. There is no rule saying that an alternative name (which has been used in several scholarly reliable sources) cannot be mentioned. You are free to get a third opinion if you continue to disagree. This has been the status quo of the page for years. Oz346 (talk) 15:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Editors should familiarize themselves with basic concepts before editing topics they may not have much knowledge on. There are both endonym and exonym for many ethnic groups. Just because you haven't heard the Japanese people call themselves Nihonjin doesn't mean it doesn't exist nor should it be excluded from their Wikipedia intro. Eelam Tamil is a self-identification that many Tamils originating from the north and east of Sri Lanka have chosen. In Canada, which has the largest Eelam Tamil population outside Sri Lanka, the youth are increasingly adopting that identity while rejecting the Sri Lankan label: https://books.google.com/books?id=ZdTZCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA92
It may not be as commonly known to outsiders that's why it comes after an aka and not used as the article title. The fact you attacked that name in specific which is gaining more popularity but not the outdated Ceylon Tamils which has no citation shows you're engaged in nationalist editing. I once again suggest you desist from making up rules as you go along.--- Petextrodon (talk) 23:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Its laughable that you accuse me of nationalist editing, when both you Petextrodon and Oz346, seem to be doing only nationalist editing, while my edits are much broader. In the matter at hand, if all what you say is correct, you can simply share examples from international media (since you say its used out side Sri Lanka) that refers to this community by this name and we can close the matter, by adding it as common name.Cossde (talk) 04:21, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Reliable scholarly sources have already been provided which is sufficient. Can you please direct me to the official wikipedia policy or rule which states that you need "examples from international media". Oz346 (talk) 13:04, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
I disagree, sources provided here are clearly written associated to the topics of Tamil insurgency. It fails to prove Petextrodon point "Eelam Tamil is a self-identification that many Tamils originating from the north and east of Sri Lanka have chosen". I say again, if it is as widespread as you say it is please share examples from international media. Or is that you can't and that its all your own fridge theories? Cossde (talk) 13:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Since there was no further discussion, yet my removal been reverted, I will request for 3O. Cossde (talk) 04:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Tamils, Ceylon Tamils and Eelam Tamils are widely used/using words to particular ethnic group in Sri Lanka. --AntanO 13:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Says who? Cossde (talk) 05:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Who didn't say so? AntanO 09:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Tamils in Sri Lanka for start. Then the mainsteam media. Cossde (talk) 03:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
That's completely incorrect. The term originated in the island itself. Oz346 (talk) 12:01, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Ok, I'll agree with you on that it originated in the island itself. However you have yet to provide RS to state that its commonly used in SL. Cossde (talk) 14:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
You have yet to understand the simple concept of "also known as". It's an alternative self-identity some use and enough RS citations have been provided in this regard. You have now moved the goalposts and making up your own rules as you go along. Either cite the Wikipedia policy that requires alternative or lesser known names of an ethnic group to be excluded from the intro or you will be reported for creating your own rules which you have a history of doing. --- Petextrodon (talk) 18:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
@Petextrodon, its common sense that if this is in fact a commonly used term, then it would be commonly used widely in media and academia. You seem to be clearly propagating a WP:FALSEBALANCE based on your WP:NAT agenda. Cossde (talk) 14:31, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
@Cossde, if that were the case, then explain to us why you only removed "Eelam Tamils" and not the "Ceylon Tamils" despite it not being a common usage and not having citations either? If this is not WP:Nationalist editing, then what is it? In fact, go ahead and involve 3O so a neutral party can see what you have been up to. This discussion isn't going anywhere due to your inability to understand basic concepts such as "also known as" or endonym and exonym despite being explained for you above.--- Petextrodon (talk) 18:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
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