Talk:Songs of the Underground Railroad

Proposed deletion (verdict: keep)

• Keep needs more work but an important topic. Katewill 03:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• I agree, an important article, but does need a lot of work. Scouttle 07:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Coding/double meanings - miscellaneous quotes

Have you looked at the autobiography of Frederick Douglass he died in 1895 and is supposed to have referred to the coding in songs (havn't been able to get a copy of his works to confirm this)

Also Martin Luther King said in 1967 " Deep in our history of struggle for freedom Canada was the North Star. The Negro slave, denied education, de-humanized, imprisoned on cruel plantations, knew that far to the north a land existed where a fugitive slave, if he survived the horrors of the journey, could find freedom. The legendary underground railroad started in the south and ended in Canada. The freedom road links us together. Our spirituals, now so widely admired around the world, were often codes. We sang of 'heaven' that awaited us, and the slave masters listened in innocence, not realizing that we were not speaking of the hereafter. Heaven was the word for Canada and the Negro sang of the hope that his escape on the underground railroad would carry him there. One of our spirituals, 'Follow the Drinking Gourd', in its disguised lyrics contained directions for escape. The gourd was the big dipper, and the North Star to which its handle pointed gave the celestial map that directed the flight to the Canadian border" p. 1 of Conscience for Change, published by CBC Learning Systems in 1967 Ghostwhisperer II (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I have just found on Google Books that parts of "My Bondage and my Freedom" F Douglass 1855 are online, and there is on content page a Section “Hymns with double meaning” p203. I am not sure if this is the specific book the websites refer to or whether he mentions more fully coding in songs in his later works. It does occurs to me that he may not have been too specific in any books, written during the period before the abolition of slavery, that songs may contain guidance on escaping. Ghostwhisperer II (talk) 19:58, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's what Frederick Douglass said in his autobiography, My Bondage and Freedom: "A keen observer might have detected in our repeated singing of

'O Canaan, sweet Canaan, I am bound for the land of Canaan ,'

something more than a hope of reaching. heaven. We meant to reach the north – and the north was our Canaan.

'I thought I heard them say, There were lions in the way, I don’t expect to stay Much longer here. Run to Jesus – shun the danger – I don’t expect to stay Much longer here' was a favorite air, and had a double meaning. In the lips of some, it meant the expectation of a speedy summons to a world of spirits; but in the lips of our company, it simply meant a speedy pilgrimage toward a free state , and deliverance from all the evils and dangers of slavery." It's all over the web but i found it here: [1] TFHarlow (talk) 07:00, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Consciously ineffectual codes?

We need to keep in the mind the context of the Douglass passages that are cited in this entry. For example, at the beginning of the same paragraph in My Bondage and My Freedom, Douglass writes that the slave owner may very well have seen through the simple code they were using: "I am the more inclined to think that he suspected us, because ... we did many silly things, very well calculated to awaken suspicion." Douglass immediately goes on to discuss how their repeated singing of freedom was one of those "many silly things." The entry needs to be balanced and should present more than one side on this disputed claim of coded messages. In other words, Douglass is not saying here (and, as far as I know, never says anywhere) that songs were indeed widely used by slaves to convey coded messages. I've made extensive revisions to add a balanced view to the entry. Jk180 (talk) 15:32, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Big Dipper Diagram

The Big Dipper diagram most certainly does not belong in this article. This is an article about music, not astronomy. Please stop reverting my edit, not that it was done in good faith. Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The image certainly does belong in this article. This is an article about the mythology and history of slavery in the United States and its relationship to the Underground Railroad via song. The Big Dipper played an important role in that mythology especially in the song Follow The Drinkin' Gourd. Please leave the lede image alone. Thank you...Modernist (talk) 20:49, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree entirely with Pablothepenguin – that lead image doesn't work at all. It looks so out of place that my first thought when I saw it was that it had been added in error. Per WP:LEADORDER, a lead image should be "relevant" and "representative" so that it can "provide a visual association for the topic" – I find it difficult to believe that a 2005 diagram of a constellation is the best image that can be used to illustrate songs sung in a 19th-century slave escape route. The lead provides no context for the image, and its caption is completely irrelevant – it looks like it was just copied directly from the image description. If one wants to use the diagram to illustrate the subject of one or more songs, then that's fine, but it needs to be closer to the text that actually discusses the subject (i.e. the Songs section) and it needs to have a caption that actually provides some context for it. In its current state as a lead image, it isn't suitable at all. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 10:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

@Modernist: I see that you've reverted my edit. Would you be willing to discuss the issue further, as I really don't think that it's been resolved. Can you explain why this image is the best one to represent the subject of the article as a whole? From what I can tell from having looked over this article, it illustrates the subject of just one song of the Underground Railroad ("Follow the Drinkin' Gourd"). The lead doesn't mention the significance of the Plough to the topic or indicate in any way why an image of it should be the first thing that a reader sees. In fact, the Plough and the North Star are only mentioned in the first paragraph of the first section, and then aren't mentioned again until right at the very end.

The caption is now way too long. WP:CAP specifically says that a caption needs to be succinct and ideally three lines or fewer – the current caption is nearly 100 words and 10 lines long. There's no need to just copy-paste three sentences from the article directly into it. It looks like a WP:COATRACK. Why is necessary to discuss that Europe refers to the formation by a different name? Why is it necessary to mention Merak and Dubhe, or the alternate names of the North Star? None of them is relevant to the article. The caption just needs to indicate that the star formation was the subject of one of the songs, and perhaps why.

In fact, looking down the article, I'm wondering whether all of the image captions are WP:COATRACKs. The caption for "A Ride for Liberty" doesn't link the image to the article in any way, but it does mention how large the painting is and which museum it's currently in, for some reason. The caption for Ezekiel's vision also doesn't explain its relevance either, but it does list the lifespan of its painter. In short, I believe that all three images need to have their captions rewritten and, ideally, the image of the Plough should be brought down nearer to the text where it's actually discussed (i.e. the start of the Songs section). Thanks, A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 12:56, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Follow the Drinking Gourd refers to the big dipper (the drinking gourd that points to the north star - the way forward)- see here: [2] - consequently the point of the image of the Big Dipper is to essentially illustrate that point. As to whether the captions need rewriting - give it a try...Modernist (talk) 13:20, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

What about: If I Got My Ticket, Can I Ride?

Ist this song related to the Underground Railroad, too? I hear a lot o' talk about a gospel train... Be down at the station right on time ... Up to heaven on that mornin. Ouk eidos (talk) 17:24, 18 August 2017 (UTC)