Talk:Sodium carbonate/Archive 1

Really good page[edit]

The introduction at the top of the article, as appearing in March 2018, is very readable, informative and skillfully edited. This is far better than most comparable pages on Wikipedia. Totally an amazing job here.

Uncited sources[edit]

This article has a whole bunch of stupid names offered right in the opening sentence. This is not fitting of an encyclopaedia. I highly doubt that all of those names are common enough to deserve to be mentioned anywhere in the article. Soda Ash is the only other name I've heard attributed to Sodium Carbonate. Any other names should provide sources before they're listed in this article. Do not remove the uncited sources warning until sources have been cited for any unscientific names attributed to this chemical. Owen214 (talk) 11:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have found a source that could be used to help clean up the article: Sodium Bicarbonate and Sodium Carbonate

Its not much but I found it while trying to find a more reliable source to write up my lab report Elleacampbell (talk) 04:12, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Use as a medical treatment to reduce swelling[edit]

There's no evidence that supports the claim that this actually works. The source provided for this claim is very tenuous. I added in a reference to this meta study; http://www.mihsr.monash.org/cce/res/pdf/c/old022.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.172.165 (talk) 02:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

crystal form wrong?[edit]

I think that it's crystal form is wrong! in my chemestry kit it say that Sodium Carbonate is is Rhombic crystals.

I belive, that your chemistry kit is not referring to sodium carbonate, but rather to sodium carbonate monohydrate (orthorhombic / needles)or decahydrate (monoclinic-domatic / hexagonal platelets) crystals. It is tricky, to produce crystals of water-free sodium carbonate, because from aqueous solution, only the hydrated forms crystallize. Water-free sodium carbonate crystallizes as hexagonal platelets. The soda ash you get commercially is produced by dehydrating (calcining) the monohydrate or the bicarbonate. So it is composed of agglomerates of micron-sized crystals. Mirkano (talk) 12:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Uses[edit]

stating uses for it would be helpful. like making tyedye shirts.

It is also use as an acidity regulator; but that's all I know. ^KILO-_LIMA 13:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Soda ash is commonly used to raise the Ph in swimming pools and spas.

I think the staments in the artical concerning the usaes of Sodium Carbonate in photography are misleading and inaccurate. The primary use of Sodium carbonate in photography is in B&W film developers. It is (or was) commonly used as the alkali which is necessary to activate the developing agent.

I am a technician in a photo lab and we do (very rarely) use sodium carbonate to adjust the pH of the developer in our colour (C-41) film processor; generally in the event of getting other process chemicals into the developer tank so that the entire solution of developer does not have to be dumped.Beta34 (talk) 16:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, on the use of it in pools. Furthermore it is used by swimmingpools and spas as a cleaning agent nearby or in the pools, because it makes no bubbles (as soap does) and it has little effect that the Ph-control mechanisms can't correct. And, trivially, our restaurant kitchen uses sodium carbonate to clean the deep frier before putting in new fat.Sander1453 (talk) 16:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reactions[edit]

I'd like to ask: If it were heated, would it not transform to to carbon dioxide and sodium oxide?

Thats what i would have thought, but when i heated Sodium Bicarbonate until it decomposed into sodium carbonate then treated it with 12 molar HCl giving me something that ressembled Calcium Sulfate (plaster of paris). Any thoughts??

Heat sodium bicarbonate until it decomposes fully into sodium carbonate. Then heat it some more, see if it decomposes. THEN, if it does, put it in a solution of baker's ammonia ((NH₄)₂CO₃). If this makes it reek of ammonia, then you have put something basic in it, which would indicate that you put Na₂O in it. I'd try it myself, but I have improper heating devices.

Answers to reactions[edit]

Sodium bicarbonate decomposes to sodium carbonate, water and carbon dioxide on heating. It does not decompose any further under normal heating. Sodium bicarbonate is a weak base, sodium carbonate is a strongish base and will liberate ammonia from its salts.

Sodium oxide would react very exothermically with water to form sodium hydroxide.

Treating sodium carbonate with hydrochloric acid would produce a paste of sodium chloride if the concentrations were high enough. It has nothing to do with calcium sulfate.

Socksysquirrel 17:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Plus you can smell already 50ppm of ammonia (NH3) - with 1000ppm overloading your nose with sensory input, so you might not smell much else anymore for a while. So checking for ammonia smell is not a good indicator and can be quite uncomfortable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirkano (talk • contribs) 10:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also used for dyeing fabrics[edit]

Would any of you chemists be able to include some of this info on this page? http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/FAQ/sodaash.shtml

Molecular diagram missing carbon[edit]

The molecule diagram shows three oxygen atoms, two sodium -- where's the carbon? (I understand where it is, but given the formula "Na2CO3" wouldn't it be better to have an explicit "C" in there?) — Johan the Ghost _seance 09:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC) / 12:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chemists typically leave the "C" for carbon out of molecular diagrams, assuming that anyone who is bothering to look at these knows that when four bonds converge, and the atom isn't specifically stated, it's a carbon. Also, if you see one with less than four bonds, you can assume that enough hydrogens are on it to bring each carbon up to four bonds; just look at the diagram for butane. Cgirten 18:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a chemist, I did look at the diagram. My initial reaction was "shouldn't there be a carbon atom between those oxygen atoms?" I even added a new discussion topic about it until I noticed this one. I think it might be useful to put it in there even if it should be assumed. It's a simple enough structure that a non-chemist like myself might want to look at it. - Tekemperor 23:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

hi Tekemperor, the structure is in skeletal format which omits carbon atoms. For small structures it's not really necessary. I can change this. I am also not entirely satisfied with the delocalized structure (it does not keep track of electrons). I would be willing to change it to a localized structure with the carbons unless there is some standard I am missing. Buzzbo (talk) 04:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The carbon is in the diagram for bicarbonate of soda, so probably should be here to for consistency. 87.194.171.29 (talk) 02:46, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relationship to Leblanc process and Solvay process articles[edit]

I feel that the "Production" section of this article should be adapted to recognize the present state of the articles on the Leblanc process and the Solvay process. I'm thinking that the detailed descriptions of these processes should be curtailed in the present article, with more emphasis on the pros and cons of each process. In addition, this section should comment on the production method from which the name "soda ash" was derived: from the ashes of marine plants (barilla & kelp). The Kiefer article mentions that 100,000 Scotsmen were involved in this activity in 1700s!

Any comments?EAS 09:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MSDS[edit]

The MSDS link is broken, can someone add the correct one? dq 14:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Decomposes to Sodium Oxide at what temperature?[edit]

This compound melts at 851 °C. But the boiling point only says decomposes. what is that decomposition temperature? It should be there. 97.82.247.200 23:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The articles for Sodium oxide and Sodium bicarbonate both say that sodium carbonate decomposes (at 851 and 1000 C respectively). The Sodium oxide article even makes it sound like Soda-lime glass contains sodium oxide and not sodium carbonate, due to this decomposition taking place in the melting. My 1962 CRC handbook lists sodium carbonate as melting at 851, but for boiling point it just says "d." as in "decomposes" - no temperature given. But this article lists a boiling point too! Where does this information come from, which of the contradictory statements found on Wikipedia is correct, and how could we still be confused about such a simple compound in 2012? I notice that other sources give a "dissociation pressure" for sodium carbonate of 14 or 41 mmHg at 1200C, while the temperature of decomposition is usually taken to be the temperature at which this pressure reaches 1 atmosphere. Surely this article, and probably also the soda-lime glass article, should contain a discussion of this subject. A5 (talk) 06:48, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please confirm ´Hou´s Process´[edit]

As a chemical engineer, having worked for years in research on the production of sodium carbonate, I have never heard of Hou´s process nor of a process scheme as outlined in the section. As the description is quite brief, the explanations might be overly simplified, misleading or partially incorrect. From the given description, the process does not make sense: It is stated, that Hou´s process avoids the use of lime and the calcination of lime stone. As the section on the Solvay process illustrates, is the limestone (CaCO3) serving as a source of carbon dioxide (CO2) and alkaline (OH- from Ca(OH)2 via CaO). In Hou´s process, no source of CO2 is given, but it is apparently used in even larger amounts than in the Solvay process. As CO2 could also be recovered (with a lesser chemical purity) from flue gases (exhaust gases of waste incinerators, power stations, etc.), this is not a major issue. A major issue is, that no process to recover the ammonia (NH3) from the NH4Cl is proposed. Furthermore, it is stated that NH4Cl is extracted from the process by (cooling) crystallization (which is not quantitative, as ca. 50% of the NH4Cl will remain in solution even at 0°C and ca. 70% at 10°C). Obviously, ammonia has to be recycled in the process, to make it work economically. And for this, it has to be added in the form of NH3 or NH4OH back into the process. As Hou´s process, stated to be ´the current main process to produce sodium carbonate´ is neither well-known nor industrially functioning, I would propose to delete the section on Hou´s process, if it cannot be verified by literature references or by other reliable sources.

Google finds citation's to Hou's process on Chinese chemical company websites. There are also mentions of Ammonium Chloride coproduction, which might be the same thing, and to some other processes (New Asahi Process, ...)

When Hou's process was added a paragraph giving the Solvay process and mining as the main sources was removed. Perhaps that should be reinstated. Lavateraguy (talk) 11:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I did some check up with your keywords - and it fits indeed. But this will be a difficult issue to settle here. I am afraid, there is some chinese-japanese sensibilities involved. Anyhow, Hou´s process[1] - apparently indeed identical to the (ammonium chloride) coproduction process - appears to be the same as a variant of the New Asahi process - which in turn is a variant of the original Solvay process. Difference between the Solvay and the New Asahi is just the method of contacting the sodium chloride with the caustic ammonia solution (with the New Asahi being nominally more efficient) and the option to extract ammonium chloride as a salt for fertilizer production. This of course requires the ammonia to be continuously replaced, so they require an ammonia plant (e.g. Haber-Bosch process) on site. This is quite expensive compared to simple lime burning of the Solvay process - and you need an alternative source of CO2, otherwise you have to sell some amount of quicklime (CaO) in addition to your fertilizer, but if you have no market outlet for CaCl2 and a good fertilizer market, it is an attractive alternative. Regarding to the Hou / New Asahi name of the process, depends apparently on whether you asked a chinese person or ...mhm... somebody else. The chinese claim, the process was invented by Hou Debang between 1930 and 1941. Of course during this time, the japanse invaded China (1937) - and occupied also the plant, where Mr. Hou was developing his process. You might fill in the rest of the story... Suffice to say, it is obscure, who did the invention - especially since it is essentially only a variation of the Solvay process. So you find no big claims from japanese corporations, but they used & use this process extensively for soda production. And since the process was most widely applied by Asahi Glass[2] (who reputedly invented it as well), it has become known as the New Asahi process. And under this name, it can be found in literature. So changing the entry would be logical, but might become a political issue.

And I agree strongly with you. The trona mining and processing has to go back in: In the US, mining is the main source of soda ash. In Europe, it is the Solvay process with some modifications. And in China/Japan/Asia? the New Asahi / Hou process is the main route - as they use~(d) this type of fertilizer for rice paddies. Mirkano (talk) 12:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

re: Trona - is this a mistake?[edit]

I'm not a chemistry wiz, so I didn't change it myself, but it seems inconsistent to in one place say, "sodium carbonate bicarbonate, trona," and then later (confirmed also by the Trona article) to say, "Trona, hydrated sodium bicarbonate carbonate". If the first one should read like the second, please go ahead and change it and remove this discussion section, as you see fit. -- Blueguy 65.0.192.177 (talk) 23:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very well spotted. Both are correct, but it's not good to confuse! Trouble with using trivial names - no fixed structure. I've changed them to IUPAC name - thus we now have trisodium hydrogendicarbonate dihydrate. I've also changes Troma page for consistency. Ronhjones ^(Talk) 23:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Caustic[edit]

isint this chemical caustic???????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thekiller35789 (talk • contribs) 03:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No - you can wash your hands in it as long as you don't do it too often - but it saponfies the natural greases on your skin and repeated use can make hands sore. Velela ^{Velela Talk} 22:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This chemical is not even caustic enough to saponify natural greases in the skin, only carbonate over a long period of time and stronger alkali can do that. Tech2077 (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WRONG! It might not be caustic, but it is irritant. Bathing body parts in it does not seem a very sane idea.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.126.63 (talk • contribs)

Production of what?!?[edit]

"Sodium carbonate is also used in the production of sherbet lollies."

Is this really needed? I'm sure both of the people who've ever heard of these "sherbet lollies" might find it interesting, but I find it not notable. Should probably either be explained (what is a sherbet lollie and why is it relevant that they in particular are made with sodium carbonate) or removed99.131.53.182 (talk) 00:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not as obscure as you claim. And there is already a description. But I've generalised the statement to a broader class of product, and added a wikilink. Lavateraguy (talk) 07:07, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't heard of sherbert? Everyone knows what sherbert is. You've got it all wrong in your suggestion that sherbert is obscure. (Huey45 (talk) 08:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]

As a long time aficionado of sherbet, my belief is that one of the main constituents is sodium bi-carbonate, not sodium carbonate. It would taste soapy and unpleasant if it was sodium carbonate. Velela ^{Velela Talk} 17:15, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The sherbet article says that both Na2CO3 and NaHCO3 are used in sherbets. Lavateraguy (talk) 19:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It may say that, but it is wholly unreferenced and all the external references supplied at Sherbet (powder) say sodium bicarbonate. The ingredient list for ostensibly the most popular brand of sherbet in the UK is listed as Sugar, Treacle, Wheat Flour, Cornflour, Sodium Bicarbonate, Food Acids (Citric Acid, Tartaric Acid), Natural Colour (Plain Caramel), Liquorice Granules, Anti-caking Agent (Tricalcium Phosphate), Natural Flavouring (Lemon), Aniseed Oil [3]. Velela ^{Velela Talk} 22:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NaHCO₃ definitely seems to be the most commonly used base, but there are recipes on the web using Na₂HCO₃, such as here. I've modified sherbet (powder) to mention the former first. Lavateraguy (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Health?[edit]

there is only a statement that it is known as food additive E500. but what about health? no impact? no regulations for its use in foodstuffs? daily intake? allergic reactions? Raigedas (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I think this should be addressed. I haven't found a reliable source yet thought. --91.138.225.53 (talk) 06:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The health info is available on the MSDS which is linked in the data on the right side under Hazards. Buzzbo (talk) 06:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And again we encounter the common misconception, that gets sodium carbonate mixed up with sodium bicarbonate. Sodium carbonate is irritating and not to be found in food, sodium bicarbonate is E 500 and causes no harm.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.126.63 (talk • contribs)

46.115.126.63, E500 refers to sodium carbonates. Note the plural carbonates. This is indeed inderstood to include sodium bicarbonate, but also sodium carbonate.

The amount permitted in various foods is probably considered "a level not higher than is necessary to achieve the intended purpose and provided that they do not mislead the customer" (quantum satis). See COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) No 1130/2011, which details E numbers. Search for "E 500".

Sigma-Aldrich's MSDS on the 99.999% pure compound concerns itself with "H319 Causes serious eye irritation" and "R36 Irritating to eyes." Rabbit models show "mild skin irritation" after 24 hours. Advice on skin contact is "Wash off with soap and plenty of water. Consult a physician." Keep in mind that the same advice applies to ordinary sand (not powdered silica). Tomásdearg92 (talk) 13:50, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused. Is this dangerus? Sodium bicarbonate(Baking soda) turns into Sodium carbonate above 60c (140F) So in a oven the Sodium bicarbonate turn into Sodium carbonate in your cookies. So it can't be to dangerus. Unless I'm wrong above.37.44.168.29 (talk) 17:00, 7 July 2014 (UTC) Edit: "Melting point 50 °C (122 °F; 323 K) (decomposes to sodium carbonate)" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baking_soda#Cooking[reply]

37.44.168.29, the reaction of sodium bicarbonate with acidic compounds in batters and doughs (lactic acid, phosphates, etc.) produces carbon dioxide gas and water. It is the sodium salt of the acid that remains. For example, combining sodium bicarbonate with "cream of tartar" leaves only sodium bitartrate, itself used regularly in foods as an acidity regulator. Sodium bicarbonate does indeed decompose above 60 °C on its own, but when mixed with other chemicals - especially acids - will often react in a different manner.

A materials safety data sheet (MSDS) is usually a comprehensive source on the safety of a chemical and the actions to be taken if an incident occurs, the NFPA diamond can also serve as a quick reference as to the hazards from a chemical. Wikipedia(ns) cannot give health and safety advice, not reliably anyway, see the disclaimers at the bottom of a page, especially Wikipedia:Risk_disclaimer. Tomásdearg92 (talk) 11:43, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Taste[edit]

It says that it would have a cooling alkaline taste. That is so wrong. The enthalpy for dissolving this salt in water is negative. I'm not sure about the hydrate dissolving, but anhydrous salt dissolves with giving off considerable heat and it really burns the tongue. It burns so bad in minute ammounts. You really wouldn't like to taste a spoonful. The bicarbonate is the one which has a cooling and alkaline taste.

I'll remove the entire sentence not only because it's incorrect, but because I really see no reason for such info to be visible. There are plenty other articles on chemicals, and they lack this. Why should sodium carbonate one be an exception? Endimion17 (talk) 00:06, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, what you are talking about is Sodium hydroxide or Lye. The reaction of Sodium carbonate with water is mildly endothermic, hence the tendency of the heptahydrate to effloresce. Compare that with Sodium hydroxide which has strongly exothermic reaction with water and which, if left in the open air rapidly deliquesces by scavenging atmospheric water. Please check facts before deleting text from the article based on erroneous understanding. Velella ^{Velella Talk} 21:50, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In old times was used with olive oil to make soap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.8.96 (talk) 19:00, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Use in a survival kit?[edit]

I just heard in an old video clip that soda ash was recommended for nuclear war survival kits. Why? Treatment of latrines, like lye? —Darxus (talk) 01:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Soda Process[edit]

The bit on the soda process is redundant, it is already there in the third equation of the solvay process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.92.222 (talk) 06:32, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.117.144.177 (talk) 05:20, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

reticulation?[edit]

The article states "Sodium carbonate is used to create the photo process known as reticulation". first, reticulation is not a process. It is a defect. second, it is well know that the defect know as reticulation is primarily attibuted to wide variation in process temperature. It really has nothing to do with sodium carbonate.

This statement is unfounded and categorically false. It should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.117.144.177 (talk) 05:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Appearance of compounds[edit]

I feel that adding what the anhydrous state and the hydrates look like would be a good addition to this article, especially since I am trying to find this out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.100.148.85 (talk) 04:19, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NFPA updated[edit]

Not sure where the original NFPA came from, but the correct rating is 2,0,0 not 1,0,1. This is from Sigma and Tata. I tried to leave a reference in the page, but it was not possible. Infact, it broke the NFPA section. It is fixed, but perhaps it would be helpful to add that functionality? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Murenrb (talk • contribs) 15:39, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Chlorine Tablets[edit]

What are chlorine tablets?209.93.131.14 (talk) 17:59, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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