Talk:Sicily/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Old Norsk

The question has been raised in an edit war between editor No such user and IP editor 151.19.122.130 whether it is appropriate to place the Old Norse language form in the lead. One possibly applicable guideline is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section#Foreign language. While that guideline addresses form, it does not address inclusion/exclusion criteria. Given that the lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article, is the Old Norse word for Sicily better here or later in the text? Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section#Introductory text does say: Editors should avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, since greater detail is saved for the body of the article. --Bejnar (talk) 15:27, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm surprised we're even having this discussion. My supply of AGF on part of 151 is very short: any attempt to add an Old Norse (!) name to the lead of any article that does not deal with Old Norse mythology is at worst obvious trolling, at best hugely misguided, and most likely a WP:POINT, presumably because of the previous edit-warring whether to include at least reasonably on-topic Arbereshe and Sicilian. I'm honestly surprised you're even contemplating mentioning completely off-topic and WP:UNDUE Old Norse anywhere in the article. To protect the encyclopedia, I'm reverting this obvious silliness, and considering reporting to WP:AIV. And, Bejnar, please WP:DTTR (and WP:DFTT). No such user (talk) 18:52, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
My apologies, I do believe in having things talked out and I did not see anything here on the talk page about this or previous edit-warring whether to include at least reasonably on-topic Arbereshe and Sicilian, nor a name section in the article. Does anyone know where that discussion is and how it was resolved? The lead currently has only English and Italian. A similar edit war at Dalmatia resulted in the rather WP:UNDUE Dalmatia#Names in other languages which includes Hebrew, Esperanto and Afrikaans. This is not a new issue, and I believe that List of names of European cities in different languages was generated as a result. For example at present Vienna has a concise lead with an appropriate Vienna#Name section, with a see also to Other names of Vienna. --01:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Well, there was no discussion because... it was done through revert-warring, during most of March [1], which I tried to put an end to here; apart from the obvious Italian, IMO, Sicilian is important enough for a mention in the lead, but I don't care particularly either way. Anyway, MOS:FORLANG suggests that a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses. For example, an article about a location in a non-English-speaking country will typically include the local language equivalent. Old Norse obviously does not qualify as a local language, and it does not even qualify as an important historical language (Greek, Arabic, Catalan, and even Norman spring to mind), whatever Harald Hardrada (1015 – 1066) thought about it. I think it just qualifies as trolling, and since the IP is persistent and hopping, I asked for a semi-protection at WP:RFPP. No such user (talk) 06:54, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
"Sikiley" is a historic topography of Sicily . the name is found throughout the Norse culture . This is a source which are only mentioned some Old Norse:Sikiley [2] . Otherwise it should open a new paragraph to talk about this in the cultures of the peoples connection to Sicily.--79.42.103.87 (talk) 14:06, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

That's some pretty broken English there, not sure exactly what it is supposed to mean, and as I have acted as an admin here I don't intend to get involved on an editorial level, but I would note that the page you link to in that comment has a notice on it that says "This material is incomplete and is for reference only: it has not been checked and quality-controlled and should not be cited." Beeblebrox (talk) 00:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

yes...Norse texts that speak of Sicily are many..... but this :

Sikiley (noun f.)

‘[Sicily]’ source freq. total ONP (prose citations): 0 713539 SkP: 4 113631 Malfong.is (prose): 3 1392394 forms: sikileyju, sikileyjar, sikiley, Sikiley, Sikileyjar parts: (non-lexical) (unclassified) • 1. ey (noun f.) ‘island’ ungrouped: Anon Mey 26VII l. 3: Sikileyjar ‘of Sicily’ Anon Mey 38VII l. 2: Sikileyjar ‘of Sicily’ Bǫlv Hardr 4II l. 6: Sikiley ‘of Sicily’ Valg Har 1II l. 4: Sikiley ‘Sicily’ ÞjóðA Sex 2II l. 8: Sikileyju ‘Sicily’ Hharð Gamv 2II l. 1: Sikiley ‘Sicily’

these are very accurate and can be checked--79.42.103.87 (talk) 00:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree that the user is a "troll", but is definitely persistent. The information which he is putting in is putting undue weight on Sicily's rule by people from Northern Europe, just as in the past this page has been targeted by Afrocentrists '''tAD''' (talk) 00:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

@Bejnar, The Almightey Drill, Beeblebrox, and No such user: I've just noticed the incident above. FYI all IPs (even though they belong to three different ISPs) belong to the same long-term troll known as "Niniver" on it.wiki. Sad to see he landed here with his usual behaviour: massive editwars as consequence of his continous misuse of sources. On it.wiki we had to set up a set of abusefilters but anytime a page is editprotected he simply waits for semiprotection to expire. --Vituzzu (talk) 23:45, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Interesting. So this probably isn't over.... Thanks for the info. I would therefore suggest that we not engage further if this recurs, just WP:RBI. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:36, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

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Inclusive approach towards Sicilian Language

I've made several edits to the article to demonstrate Sicilian language terms for the island in the English language article. I apologise as I did indeed make a mistake in that my references cited the Sicilian language wikipedia rather than a third party source. I will cite the academic literature here in the future. This case is quite unusual though in that Wikimedia has actually be a huge asset to the Sicilian language community and in fact the Wikitionary is one of our best freely available dictionaries. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocabolario_siciliano is actually not readily available. That said, I do think we should pursue a more inclusive approach to the position of Sicilian language in this article. For example the demonyms for Catalonia are available in four languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia, I fail to see why we should not include the native language demonym?

I also provided the IPA pronunciation for Sicilia in Sicilian language, and that was removed, may we discuss why it's not relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.63.165.155 (talk) 22:02, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Sicily in Sicilian is Sicìlia with that weird looking i, which you omit. I'm not an expert of IPA, but do we know if it's the same as the Italian pronunciation? As for the demonym, I wouldn't be opposed to putting the Sicilan ones too, but this is a wiki with other editors so we must see what they think. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 22:11, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

I would personally consider the spelling Sicìlia with a grave accent to be an old Sicilian spelling, X is also common in that context (sixilia), referencing a more 'SH' sound. Your thoughts? If you feel it beneficial I will pull some stuff out of the literature later to make a more cohesive case. I should also clarify that I'm approaching this topic with training in phonetics and linguistics. Generally Sicilian language pronunciations of those letters are not the same as Italian, including vowel placement. There are IPA resources for Sicilian language that may be a valuable addition as a reference. Particularly the CI sound is generally different in Sicilian than in Italian. Please let me know your thoughts so that we can move towards a consensus. Thanks!159.63.165.155 (talk) 22:31, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Well they use Sicìlia on the Italian wiki so we should probably go with that. If you want to add some IPA or demonyms or anything, state them here first to see if there are any oppositions. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:33, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
It is okay for the name in Sicilian, but I oppose the use of Sicilian in demonyms, since we call the inhabitants of Sicilia only through the official language of the island and region. Also legally and culturally are named only with the Italian name. So, mentioning the language of the wikipedia taken into consideration plus the official one of the article's object is more than enough, also because the infobox is actually a synthesis of the Main features of the article.--93.36.1.157 (talk) 09:35, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
Firstly, it seems like most articles don't even have a demonyms sections, so it doesn't seem to matter if we put it in Sicilian as well. But I do want to clarify that Sicilian does have some status. Quote from the Sicilian language article: The language is officially recognized in the municipal statutes of Sicilian towns, such as Caltagirone[10] and Grammichele,[11] in which the "inalienable historical and cultural value of the Sicilian language" is proclaimed. Further, the Sicilian language is to be protected and promoted under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (ECRML). Italy has signed this treaty, but the Italian Parliament has not yet ratified it.[12]

Furthermore this may be a good time to address the other linguistic minorities in Sicily and include them in the page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh_language Article 6 of the Italian constitution protects linguistic minorities.[1] What ways can we include them so as to not bias this article towards Italian language?159.63.165.155 (talk) 08:59, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Follow-up, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrol#Languages on the South Tirol page Ladino is also given full status even though it's only official in some comuni, similar to Sicilian/Arbereshe/Gallo-Italic.159.63.165.155 (talk) 09:07, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, Apulia, Lazio, Pachino, etc etc all have demonyms in the infobox so I think more articles have them than not. You seem to have viable sources for what you want to add, so I would say go for it. No one else has responded here otherwise. Just make sure it is in the most unbiased way as possible. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 12:14, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I disagre, because probably the anonymous user doesn't understand Italian that well or does not understand the legal lexicon of the Italian legislative system. Sicilian language is not recognised at regional and national level. The article 6 of Italian Constitution protects linguistic minorities? True, of course only the ones that Italy recognises. Sicilian is not recognised. The recognised ones are listed in the Law 15 December 1999, n. 42 http://www.camera.it/parlam/leggi/99482l.htm (Ladin, Arbereshe and Gallo-Italic are included for instance). Both Regione Siciliana and those Sicilian comuni you listed do not recognise Siclian, they just mention to protect and enhance the local language http://www.gurs.regione.sicilia.it/Gazzette/g05-28s/g05-28s-p1.htm http://www.gurs.regione.sicilia.it/Gazzette/g05-28s/g05-28s-p1.htm. That's a big difference. Of course, the sole official language of both local institutions is Italian, because in case Sicilian had enjoyed official status all the aforementioned documents would have been written also in Sicilian. This article already has in the infobox the denomyn in English (the language of this Wikipedia version) and Italian (the only official language of Sicily), exactly like Apulia, Lazio, Pachino that have been mentioned previously in this talk. Other local languages are mentioned in the rest of the article. The infobox shows only the most important features.--93.36.9.113 (talk) 14:16, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Dear Sir/Madaam, I am very very familiar with the laws in question, I think it may be more constructive if my difference in opinion wasn't treated dismissively as lack of understanding. I think you may have not carefully read my point, if you look back you'll see that I posted a link to Arberesh language and Gallo-Sicilian referencing the other linguistic minorities of Sicily. You specifically reference Arbereshe as well, does this mean you are open to its inclusion? I understand that Sicilian language faces serious conservation challenges in Italy and that Italy does not legally recognise it at the national level, I have never made such a point. Minority language rights are however recognised as human rights at the European and International level. There was an effort to have Sicilian taught in schools a few years back, but unfortunately the resources were not made available.[2]. Sicilian does not enjoy official status regionally or nationally, but that doesn't mean that Wikipedia needs to take a politicised position on inclusion. Many minorities languages don't have official status, but it may be discriminatory to not be inclusive towards them when we can do so fairly easily and in accordance with international views towards minority language rights.159.63.165.155 (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Dear Madam/Sir, I think there is a problem of communication between us. It is not a matter of being politicised (also because I am Sicilian and I speak a fluent Sicilian). Sicilian and other minorities are already discussed in the rest of the article. Since the introduction and the infobox give info about the main features of the article, there is no need to add languages that aren't official or only recognised at municipal level (e.g. Arbereshe and Gallo-Italic enjoy a limited co-official status only at municipal level and not at the regional one). This article is about Sicily as Island and Italian region. The local languages are widely discussed in the rest of the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily#Ethno-linguistic_minorities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily#Language and in other wikipedia pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language. The article about teaching Sicilian (that the low quality newspaper calls it dialect when actually it is a language) at school is very old, part of a project that failed not because "resources weren't made available" but 'cause the autonomist political party who promoted the project is today defunct and its members on trial for several alleged crimes or part of totally different political parties.Sabbinirica--93.36.9.136 (talk) 20:41, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for you reply. You're right. You are approaching this from the position of an Italian region, I respect and appreciate your reply. At least in my case I may have become accustomed to a very different conversation and may have made assumptions about your position that was not fair. You're right, that article is of low quality, and furthermore yes of course the scandal involving Raffaele Lombardo and the Movimento per le Autonomie was a massive contributor to the failure of the legislation. I do think you may appreciate the challenge that I'm attempting to address here, in that Sicilian is extremely culturally relevant, but enjoys very limited recognition as such. I'll reconsider this question and follow-up. Thank You159.63.165.155 (talk) 21:22, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.senato.it/documenti/repository/istituzione/costituzione_inglese.pdf
  2. ^ http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/dialetto-siciliano-sar-insegnato-nelle-scuole-varata-legge.html

Clarification requested on sentence in paragraph 3 of the introduction

Folks,

Would someone kindly clarify the following sentence?

. . . it was ruled unconquerable during the Early Middle Ages by the Vandals, . . .

It does not make obvious sense:

  • If it was unconquerable, then it wasn't ruled.
  • If it was ruled by various parties, then it wasn't unconquerable.

I suspect what the author is getting at is that the island was invaded by various groups -- and who claimed dominion over it for periods -- but no one ever really gained any real level of control of the rascally Sicilian population.

Grazie. 77th Trombone (talk) 12:36, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Edit Suggestions

Hello, I would like to say a few suggestions to improve this article. A good amount of sections are missing citations for historical information and facts about geography (ex. length of rivers table). Under the "Flora and fauna," although it describes the land as being heavily agricultural, the only flora object mentioned is a chestnut tree and it would be nice to add other species of plants to the list. It might be nice to update information that was posted years ago with a newer source (such as the current president of Sicily) to show the article is being reviewed constantly and is up to date. Along with that, information on the status of the bridge that was proposed to be built would benefit from updated information as well. Just a quick search showed the estimate price for the project went up and that another concern for building it was because of earthquakes.[1] Grisafi95 (talk) 04:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/matteo-renzi-revives-plan-bridge-mainland-italy-to-sicily-a7333216.html

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