Talk:Shadow of the Colossus/Archive 3

Quadratus or Pelagia?

Could the "fossil" found in one of the viral marketing sites be supposedly resembling #12 Pelagia and not #2 Quadratus as this page sugests? The fossil was found submerged in ice, and Pelagia was a water Colossus. Also, regardless of the horns, I think that it's head has the same bucket-ey head with the same grill face as Pelagia. Possible? UserNameless 17:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

If you go to the site and look at the "hidden site" mentioned at the article, it has like a scanning program video. When they show the video, it's clearly a scan of the second colossus.

http://www.stop-polarneft.com/arkady/mammothscan.mov

Karwynn 02:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Wanda vs. Wander

What about all the talk about people mistaking Wander for Wanda in the European version section. I kind of like having it in the article because, silly as it is, the confusion is game-related and understandable. On the other hand, it's been resolved to my satisfaction and, in my opinion, there is no real doubt about what his real name is (nor about Agro's name). So, does it deserve mention or should we remove it?

I rewrote the paragraph in what I hope is a clearer manner, but the "problem" is not entirely confined to the European version. What say you all?
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 04:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely worth making mention of, along the same lines as the Aeris/Aerith thing with Aerith Gainsborough. That said, your rewrite isn't as clear as it should be, as it doesn't make mention of the fact that the Japanese developers chose an English word for the character's title, and, thus, their transliteration resulted in a pronunciation of "Wanda," which would be represented with those exact characters in a direct romaji translation. While anyone with a moderate understanding of Japanese would understand this as being the point, bearing in mind that the general English-speaking/reading populace does not have so much as this level of familiarity with Japanese, those key words should remain within the explanation. Ryu Kaze 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, it's inaccurate to say "this mistake has plagued the game in all its versions." The NTSC manual used "Wander." The only confusion that arose among the NA gamers was because it was originally announced as "Wanda and the Colossus." To say "this mistake" makes it sound like you mean the manual/in-game inconsistency, which only plagues the PAL version. Ryu Kaze 08:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way again, the explanation should read that the confusion is over the character's title and not his name, as his name is unknown. The official PAL website states that his name is unknown and he's merely called "Wander" because - well, it's obvious why. Ryu Kaze 09:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I am pleased with some of the changes you've made to the paragraph, but I still think it is a bit too long, and somewhat redundant in places. Obviously, my own knowledge of Japanese is minimal—just enough to get me in trouble with people who really know it—so I am forced to bow to your wisdom in cases of its usage. I would argue, however, that Wander is the character's name for purposes of the game. It may be that, were he a real person, his name would be something else, but in the context of the script and the credits, he is Wander, and thus "title" is the wrong word. You wouldn't replace a reference to the Star Child in 2001: A Space Odyssey with something else, even though no one ever addresses the being so designated in those exact words.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 20:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine. I can see your point. Glad it's to your liking on the whole. Ryu Kaze 22:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Story trimming

All right. The article was down to 32 kilobytes for a little while—which is still a little big, but not too bad—and it now starting to climb again. I have been thinking that we may want to remove bits and pieces from the Story section. It is pretty long, and even though it's been broken up by the addition of another image, I think it goes a little too much into detail. (I will set aside, for now, my opinion that it is really an explanation of the plot of the game, rather than its story, which I think anyone would agree is fairly weak.) Does anyone else think we could trim a little from this section?
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 20:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure we could, the best way to approach that would probably be breaking it up into parts and removing plot summary.

So perhaps leave the intro and rephrase it somewhat, and remove the ending. The problem is that the game provides little to no backstory so in order to avoid plot summary we are left with only describing what the player sees/experiences before and shortly after the actual game process begins. Tani unit 20:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a summary from a player's perspective (bringing up what they see and hear) along with an explanation of how open-ended it is would be the route to go? Which is to say, attempt describing only what's known for certain. Any ideas on that? I'm going to see if I can trim anything out real quick. Ryu Kaze 22:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've been delayed, but I'll give it a shot as soon as I can. Ryu Kaze 00:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

As noted in the edit history, I've made a run through to tighten wording, remove errors, and to remove unnecessary speculation. Now I'll try condensing. Ryu Kaze 00:51, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Second run through completed. I'll be making one more to see if anything else can be omitted, but we're getting down to the bare bones at this point. Ryu Kaze 01:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I gave it a third and run through and then a brief skimming. I'll look at it again later to see if there's anything else removable, but I'm thinking this is going to be it. If you still feel like the article as a whole is too long, it might be best to trim somewhere else now. Ryu Kaze 01:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I went in and removed the entire part regarding anything about the progress of the sotry and ending after Wander sets out to defeat the Colossi. If anyone feels that this part is somehow nessesary lets discuss it here before doing a revert. Personally, i think that what is there is sufficient as far as story is concerned, unless the article gives away entire story and plot as it was until now. Tani unit 03:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I took it a step further and edited it to leave off on the "ominous note." The part about the shadow beings and the deterioration of Wander seemed extrinsic and unnecessary at this point. Ryu Kaze 04:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow! You guys really took to that task with a will.  :) In the main I approve of the changes made to the Story section, but I think it would be all right to put the stuff about Wander's degrading appearance back in. What we have right now is, essentially, a plot summary, rather than a story summary, which is what we want. The game's story is really pretty weak, but it has a strong plot. A plot—for those who might not know the difference, as I didn't until about a year ago—is the problem which the protagonist must face and overcome through his own actions. A story has a plot (or it should; don't get me started) but a plot by itself is not a story. A story is how the plot is resolved, for either good or ill.

As succinctly as I can manage, the plot of the game is this: Wander wishes to resurrect Mono (the main problem the protagonist must face is how to accomplish this feat) and his solution to this problem is to steal the ancient sword, travel to the forbidden lands, and ask Dormin for help. Dormin will give this help, but in order to exercize its power, it must be freed from bondage, thereby complicating the how of the plot by placing sixteen obstacles in Wander's path to his goal.

So, I think that anything having to do with the set up of this situation (the flashback and the legend it relates, and the conversation between Wander and Dormin) should be in the section. Following that, anything which further complicates the plot, or gets in Wander's way (his gradual possession by Dormin, the degradation of his appearance and the consequent brightening of Mono's, and the arrival of Lord Emon and his soldiers) should be related. Then, despite all odds and opposition (including a sword to the chest!) the protagonist wins through and accomplishes his goal, albeit in a way he could not have foreseen (which is the best way, in my opinion... heh). We have three paragraphs now, and I think that's all we need, with the addition of, and focus on, important plot points. Then, I think we should rename the section to "Plot synopsis" and call it good. What do you think?
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 07:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I think if it's possible to put the matter of his degrading appearance in while bringing it up as part of the last paragraph, that may befine. I'm not so sure that it's seperated enough from the plot to be considered seperate from the obstacles he's facing, but at the same time, since it's something the player has to notice on their own and it's never pointed out within gameplay and the player doesn't have to overcome anything additional (indeed, Wander gets physically more powerful as his body degrades), I'd say it might be more story than plot.

Glad you approve of the changes on the whole, by the way. Ryu Kaze 13:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Image usage

I have taken some digital photographs of my trip to the top of the Shrine of Worship. Does anyone feel it would be appropriate (or inappropriate) to add one of them to the article?
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 07:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Why dont you show some of them here first>?. I personally dont see a problem with it. -- Psi edit 12:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I doubt there's anything wrong with it. Let's have a look. Ryu Kaze 04:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

All right. It doesn't look super-good because I have no way of performing a direct capture, but it's not too bad. I have a couple of others from my trip there (and could make the trip again to try for some better ones), but I figured this would do as an example. I don't want to upload too many screenshots, as we are technically only supposed to have one per article.

File:Wander-garden.jpg

Wander in the secret garden.

—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 21:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey that doesnt look to bad as a thumbnail. -- Psi edit 21:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It is quite good as a thumbnail, and isn't half bad when enlarged. It's a really good shot too. Go with it. Ryu Kaze 03:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

ditto Tani unit 04:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

All right: I've added it. But I'm not sure about placement. On my high-resolution screen, it looks all right, but on a smaller screen it might break into the section below. Someone police it?
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 07:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Connection to Ico confirmed(?)

Hm... in this interview that came out yesterday, it looks like the connection's been confirmed as both games taking place in the same world and as SotC being the prequel, with Wander starting the line of horned boys. Ueda didn't emphasise it being one take on things this time: Wired interview

See what you think. Ryu Kaze 20:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. The most suprising thing is... What was the story of Ico about if he wasnt originally going tohave horns?
I'm glad about this confirmation of the timeline and the world. -- Psi edit 20:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it is. It doesn't really remove much of the ability of people to use their imaginations either. Ryu Kaze 22:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of confirmations, I just climbed the shrine again, and went out along the bridge, looking for the castle, and I was able to find it. I've made a small change to the article to reflect its whereabouts more precisely.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 22:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm... reading the interview again, he goes from saying that there's no specific connection timeline wise to saying that it's in the same world and then back to saying that Wander begins the line of horned boys. Maybe he was still trying to go with that "it's not definite" thing but it was lost in translation? Well, until we're given reason to think otherwise, I imagine this is still confirmation. "SotC came before Ico" still isn't all that specific in terms of timeline. Could have been hundreds or thousands of years apart. There were like 50 sarcophogi for horned boys in the Queen's castle, I think, so if only one -- or even just a few -- came per generation, then it may have been quite a long time. Ryu Kaze 01:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The sarcohphogi bears the Dormin archeticture along with the rest of the castle. I dont think they were originally meant to be safricial abandonement altars for the horned children. From the international site, it tells that the animated shadows of the Dormin are actually the shadows of the Dormin who is beyond the physical world and can only show himself through his shadow. This likeley applies to Ico's shadows aswell. -- Psi edit 05:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Layout suggestion

You know, we've turned it into a good page here, but every time I look at it, it feels like there's something wrong. I think I've figured out what it is: the order of the categories stinks.

In terms of relevance, I think they should be listed like this instead:

• European version
• Early development as Nico
• Awards
• Composer and soundtrack
  • Track list
• Viral marketing campaign
• Japanese packaging
• Sources
• External links

Thoughts? Ryu Kaze 04:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I like it in general, but what about this?

• Composer and soundtrack
  • Track list
• European version
• Awards
• Early development as Nico
• Viral marketing campaign
• Japanese packaging
• Sources
• External links

It's sort of a descending order, sorted roughly by length of content. I thought putting the soundtrack section before the European section was appropriate, because the music is part of the game as a whole, no matter where you purchase it. I suppose the same could be said for the Awards section. Counterthoughts?
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 08:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good enough to me. Fair enough point. By the way, we need to set up the sources section in the proper wikipedia format (check the references section of the Mythology of Final Fantasy X page to see what I mean). Ryu Kaze 09:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

So how much longer you think we should wait to see if there's any disagreement before carrying out the change? Ryu Kaze 13:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I have made the changes discussed, including Psi's suggestion that the Japanese packaging be located next to the European version. (I also cut out the big table of save temple locations someone added—I felt it was in the same category as all the other gameplay information we removed by consensus.)
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 06:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Where does the plot section go?. -- Psi edit 20:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

It stays where it is. XD Story through Themes are probably good where they are. At least I think so. Ryu Kaze 01:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright I just think Eurpean version and Japanese packaging could go well next to each other. But It doesnt matter. -- Psi edit 02:23, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. Zork's changes look good, and I like everything but where External Links now sits. That should always go after Sources. If no one minds, I'm going to change that. Ryu Kaze 10:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

No objection. I simply forgot to make the change while I was in there. Thanks for spotting it.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 00:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Plot synopsis

I started to rewrite the story section tonight, intending to turn it into a plot synopsis, but I ended up writing more than the three paragraphs I envisioned above (see "Story trimming"). This is actually my second attempt at a rewrite; the first was far too long and more like the old story section. Sigh.

Shadow of the Colossus begins with a great journey: Wander, the protagonist, rides on horseback through varied terrain until he reaches the gateway to a forlorn land of ruins. Crossing an enormous bridge to the door of a hulking temple, Wander passes within and arrives in a great hall lined with stone idols. It is here on an altar that he deposits his burden: the pale corpse of a woman named Mono. As Wander waits for the fabled magic of this land to work upon the woman, he recalls the legend of its origin and the beings who once controlled power over the souls of the deceased. But it is forbidden to trespass upon these lands, or to enact the ritual of resurrection, for obscure reasons not revealed until the end of the story. As he muses, Wander is set upon by shadowy creatures. These he banishes by use of the sword at his hip, which emits beams of light when directed at them. This act attracts the attention of Dormin, a disembodied entity that speaks in two resonant voices from a sunlit aperture in the ceiling.

Wander asks Dormin to bring back Mono's soul, revealing that she was sacrificially killed because of her "cursed fate." Dormin scoffs at first, but eventually tells Wander that by using the "ancient sword" he carries it may be possible to bring the woman back from death. To accomplish this, Domin explains to Wander that he must destroy the sixteen statues lining the hall, adding the caveat that mortal hands are incapable of success. Instead, Wander must use the sword to slay the colossi—the living incarnations of the statues—whereupon the idols will crumble and their power be released. Dormin warns Wander that the granting of his wish may cost him a heavy price, but the young man says, somewhat ominously, that it doesn't matter. Thus begins "... a story of companionship and undying love ..." as Wander quests into every corner of the forbidden lands in search of his foes.

As the game progresses, each success brings Wander greater strength at the cost of his own soul. Every dead colossus spews forth shadowy tentacles that enter Wander's eyes and chest, slowly causing the ruination of his appearance even as they provide him with more power. After the death of the twelfth colossus it is revealed in a short scene that Wander is pursued by a shaman, the Lord Emon, and a group of soldiers. Urged by Dormin to hurry, Wander completes the ritual even as Lord Emon's cohort arrives. Wander returns to the temple in a shambles: his hair, skin, and eyes have changed color, darkening as the strange essence of the colossi fills his body; small horns protrude from his head. He staggers toward Mono, watching for her to rise. Lord Emon orders Wander's death, citing his possession by the dead and telling Wander that he has been tricked and used by Dormin. When Wander finally succumbs, black blood gouting from his wounds and darkness veiling his fallen body—a death identical to those suffered by the colossi.

At last it is made clear why these lands and this ritual are forbidden. Dormin possesses Wander's body, growing into a shadowy giant and lamenting its earlier fate to Lord Emon, having been separated in order to seal away its power: Wander has provided the means by which it can return to full strength. Lord Emon and his soldiers retreat from the lumbering abomination, taking with them the ancient sword discarded by Wander. Lord Emon casts a spell with the sword, sealing Dormin/Wander away in a whirl of wind and light. As the magic of the shrine is undone by this imprisonment, Lord Emon beats a hasty retreat across the crumbling remains of the bridge, at last wishing Wander well—if he is still alive—and expressing hope that he might someday atone for his actions.

In the now-silent hall, Mono awakens: Dormin has granted Wander's wish, even if only as a side-effect of its own resurrection. Mono is led by Wander's horse to the place where Dormin/Wander was imprisoned and finds a baby boy with tiny horns on his head. She carries the child and follows the horse to higher levels of the shrine, coming at last into a hidden garden that is home to several animals, proving that life is possible in these cursed lands.

Please comment and offer suggestions. It's longer than what we have up now, but my tired brain seems to think it is still fairly concise. The last two paragraphs are a little more story-oriented than plot-oriented, but by that point in the game, the story is almost entirely plot resolution, so I couldn't find a way to write it that didn't include those things and still made sense.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 10:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm... well, it is infinitely more concise than what used to be there (good job on pulling that one off), but by the same token, I'm not so sure that we should be delving into even that much detail. The plot set-up that we have now is really all that's called for -- and preferred -- by Wikipedia standards, and it seems to break at a logical point.

My personal gripes with a few things are mostly wording-oriented, but specifically where a potentially negative connotation is applied to the wording describing the Dormin and/or their actions. From this, someone would walk away with the preconception that the Dormin were a group of ancient evil beings sealed away for the good of man, which may not be the case. For example, "possessed" seems the wrong word to use, especially since the in-game translation seems to intentionally indicate a different connotation with "borrowed," when -- but a moment before -- Emon was throwing around "Look, he's [Wander] been possesssed by the dead," which was obviously untrue, and seemed more like Emon was goading his men to murder Wander. He changes his story from "eradicate the source of the evil" to then "he's been possessed by the dead" to an outright "hurry up and do it!" followed by saying they're doing him a favor since he's "cursed."

I hate to suggest it since you probably spent a little while on that, but I don't think any change to the plot summary is necessary. But again, you did do an impressive job of condensing all that. Ryu Kaze 10:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! I did spend a while on it, but that's not important in deciding whether or not it has merit.  :) The section we have up now, as you said, is more like a plot setup than a synopsis: it describes the events which take place immediately before gameplay begins, sort of like a script treatment for a movie's introductory scenes. On these grounds alone I would suggest it be made even shorter (perhaps one paragraph) and limit itself to a concise description of Wander's goal and the immediate obstacles to achieving that goal—the resurrection of Mono and his battles with the colossi. I haven't worked on any other game articles so I don't know what depths they generally reach for. If I was writing a short blurb for someone who hadn't played the game but didn't mind knowing what happened, the five paragraphs above are what I'd give them.

It seems fruitless to apply motivations to Emon's speeches, though his soldiers do seem reluctant to simply murder Wander on the spot. It doesn't matter why he tells them to do it, only that he does, and that they follow through. Regarding Dormin's treatment of Wander's body, I don't think possession is too-strong a term. Nothing in the definition of the word suggests that possession is permanent (though it is almost universally regarded as an act performed only by evil spirits). In any case, whether evil or not, Dormin's use of Wander's body would seem a clear case of possession (or at least strong domination). And whether or not Dormin was originally sundered for the good of man, or because it was an evil force, or for some other reason, is immaterial: at this point, he seeks to revenge himself on the humans at hand. Since we are given so little background information, and are not let into the minds of those involved, we can't speculate about what might motivate them to perform the acts they perform (with the possible exceptions of Wander [love] and Dormin [yearning for freedom]). If I had been imprisoned for a long time, and someone finally showed up with the materials I needed to escape, I would probably tell him anything he wanted to hear if it would goad him into doing what I needed, so even though Dormin may not be evil, he is certainly opportunistic and deceitful, which are generally regarded as being antisocial at the very least, and downright wrong in other opinions. So, even if Dormin is not a villain, he is certainly an antagonist (as is Emon).

In conclusion, I do not think it is our place to attempt to tell all possible interpretations of a set of events. Since we are given insufficient information to formulate what might or might not be the correct interpretation, it seems reasonable to me that th esimplest explanation is the most likely, and that we need not seek deeper and deeper in an attempt to divine motivations or intents from the characters. What matters are their actions.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 00:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

That's actually the point I was trying to make, but I apologize if it didn't come out clear. Some of the words used gives a certain interpretation through connotation, and we should avoid giving interpretations, either through inference or through direct statements. I'd also argue that it's invalid that Dormin's deceitful, as they never told Wander they wouldn't use his body. They said that he may have to pay a heavy price, and Wander accepted those terms. That's like signing a blank cheque when you don't know the cost. Wander willingly granted the Dormin whatever price they were asking.

Anyway, all that aside, I've noticed that the Final Fantasy games do have complete story summaries, and I was just enlisted to do one, so I guess there's no problem with doing one here too. On the whole, your story summary's good as it is, but I would suggest going for as neutral a terminology as possible. "Possession" carries a connotation that we should strive to avoid, as does "abomination." And the sentence that Mono's ressurrection may have been an unintentional side-effect is speculative, which we should avoid.

Again, good job on the whole. If you'd like, I could try to help out, showing how I would revise certain phrases and such? Ryu Kaze 17:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Your input is most welcome. Feel free to cut-and-paste here with your changes (so others can comment, too) or use my talk page if that suits you better.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 02:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, cool. I should have something ready in the next 12 hours. Ryu Kaze 19:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, here's what I've got (note that I've tried to keep the wording as "to the point" as possible, so as to avoid it sounding more like a summary on a fansite or something):

The story of Shadow of the Colossus begins with a young man known as "Wander" traveling by horseback along a massive stone bridge suspended on arched pillars. The bridge leads him into a vast, desolate landscape, finally terminating at the entrance to a great temple, the Shrine of Worship. Once inside the shrine, Wander accesses a long hall lined with sixteen large stone idols. A circular aperture allows sunlight to stream in through the ceiling before a stone altar. Wander leads his horse, Agro, to the foot of these steps and it is then revealed that Wander carries with him a body wrapped in a cloak. He lays the body upon the altar and removes the cloak, unveiling the body of a maiden named dressed in a white gown.

A voice—which speaks with a male and female duality—booms down from the aperture above, noting that Wander has the "Ancient Sword." Wander correctly assumes the voice to belong to a being known as "Dormin," and says he has heard that Dormin can restore the souls of the dead. He then asks Dormin to return the maiden's soul, revealing that she was sacrificed because she had "a cursed fate." Dormin states that it may be possible to revive her, and explains that Wander must destroy all sixteen idols lining the hall of the shrine. The Dormin further explain that the only way for a mortal to destroy the idols is to slay the living incarnations of each statue—16 colossi that reside somewhere in this land—with the ancient sword. Dormin then warns him that in performing this task he may pay a heavy price, but Wander declares that it doesn't matter and begins his journey through the forbidden lands.

Guided by the ancient sword, Wander hunts down each colossi and defeats it. Each success grants greater strength to Wander, a side effect of tendrils of dark energy that spew forth from the slain colossi and enter Wander's own body. While his physical strength and endurance inreases, his appearance deteriorates, causing him to gradually form a cadaver-like appearance. After the death of the twelfth colossus, it is revealed that Wander is being pursued by a group of warriors led by a shaman they refer to as "Lord Emon." Urged to hurry with his task by Dormin, Wander defeats the last colossus even as Lord Emon's entrouage arrives in the Shrine of Worship. Wander returns to the temple a moment later, his body now fully bearing the appearance of a corpse, as well as two small horns protruding from his head. As he staggers toward Mono, Lord Emon orders Wander's death, claiming that Wander is now cursed and possessed by the dead; he further claims that Wander was being used by Dormin. One of Lord Emon's warriors stabs Wander through his heart, and after struggling a moment longer despite his wound, he finally succumbs, black blood gouting from his wounds and darkness veiling his fallen body—a death identical to those suffered by the colossi.

At last it is made clear why these lands and this ritual are forbidden: Dormin's consciousness enters Wander's fallen body, and it grows into a shadowy giant that speaks of its body having been separated in order to seal away its power. Wander provided a means by which the Dormin's seperated essences could be reunited, killing each colossi and freeing part of Dormin, with each piece then taking up residence inside Wander's body. Lord Emon and his warriors retreat from the attacking Dormin, taking with them the ancient sword. Lord Emon then casts a spell with the sword, sucking both Dormin and Wander into a pool with a whirlwind of light. As the spell takes effect, Lord Emon and his men quickly evacuate, speeding across the crumbling remains of the bridge that lead into the forbidden lands. As Lord Emon and his men reach the exit to the outside world, he expresses the hope that—if he has survived—Wander may atone for the sins Emon feels he has committed.

In the now silent temple, Mono awakens, for the Dormin honored Wander's request. Mono is then led by Agro to the pool where Wander and the Dormin were pulled by Lord Emon's spell, finding a male infant with tiny horns on his head. She carries the child with her, following the horse to higher levels of the shrine, coming at last into a garden that is home to several animals. This indicates that life can, indeed, thrive in this land.

See what you think. Ryu Kaze 05:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

If there's no objections, I'm going to add this to the page tonight (about 6 hours from now). Ryu Kaze 20:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, well! I was pulled away on an unexpected wikibreak and so failed to post my second revision to this discussion. Your version is actually a little longer than mine.  :) I am trimming.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 21:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Malus

Hey people look the picture at this page. Looks kind of like inspiration for Malus (16th Colossus). -- Psi edit 02:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey! That's really cool!
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 07:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Isnt it? Also MJolnir's thunder theme/power, really applies to Malus dont you think? -- Psi edit 00:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Save temples

Thanks to the gratuitous personal attacks by an anonymous user, it has come to my attention that some people feel rather strongly that the article should be going in a different direction; specifically that it should contain gameplay information. I was under the impression from discussion here on the talk page that the majority of contributors to this article are pleased with the work I, and everyone else, has performed. If this is not the case, then please let me know so I can stop stepping on the toes of others.

Some time ago, it was decided here on the talk page that we would minimize or remove all gameplay information because it is not the job of Wikipedia to serve as a walkthrough document or a strategy guide. Almost every bit of information we deleted from the article is available in the game, and those that are not we have included in the "Extras" section. On these grounds I removed the "Save temples" section and, unless I missed something important, no one had a problem with my edit. Instead of bringing his concerns here, the offended party chose vandalise the article and make other personal attacks, even going so far as to perform a dummy edit just to make his point in the edit summary.

So, again, I ask that people please tell me if something I've changed is problematic. If I don't receive feedback, I can't alter my behavior.

Do people want the save temple table in the article? If not, please allow me to remove it again so that none of the rest of you come under attack by this habitual vandal. If so, then let's work on making it a more concrete part of the article instead of a bunch of locations.

Thank you for reading.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 07:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I personally liked the Save Temples section, as it let me know what parts of the world were called without having to seek out the Save Temple there, save, and look at the name of the save file... However, I think it could be redesigned a little bit. For example, it'd be more interesting to me to have the whole map in a matrix format, with the Save Temples labeled with their names in the corresponding grid location (it wouldn't be that big of a table, to be honest), and it could talk a little bit more about the geography of the Forbidden Lands rather than just "These are Save Temples"... I dunno, it might even be interesting to get a full map image (but perhaps an edited one to "edit out" the colossus symbols? Is that even allowed? Hmm...) with the names of the save temples written on it, to show what each area is called by the game.
I dunno, just giving my input on the matter. I don't mind the Save Temple name and location bit being in there (it isn't quite solely gameplay information, after all) but it is a pretty hefty chunk of stuff that might not be completely necessary.... I just don't like the vandalism that happens. Large edits, imho, should not be made without first mentioning something on the Talk Page about it, just in case anyone has any complaints (that way, they have a place to say their feelings, rather than resort to vandalism... though that's their own choice). -JC 07:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this sort of thing could work. I have seen fan-created maps and charts which, I think, would not infringe on anyone's coprights. That particular example is small, general (except for the dots all over it), and legible. Perhaps we could ask the author for permission to use it, or one like it, on the article. In the future, I will do better about asking for opinions before I make a large change. I'm only sorry it has caused such trouble.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 08:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I know. I'm not particularly upset - I know you had indicated the reason for your removal in the edit summary, and a Good User would have simply posted about it on the Talk Page rather than resorting to less-effective means of resolution, but I'm glad you'll be a little more careful in the future. I always try to leave a comment on the talk page when I edit something at all significant, but I might just be over-careful.  :) By the way, that link you gave won't work (although I have seen it before) - GameFAQs does not permit outside linking. I could make a fairly decent and small map of it, if nobody else can. How would we want it? Would we want the names of the save temples printed right on it, or have letters or numbers and list the temples' names in a Key? I just personally feel a bit of "geography" information would be really cool, since so much of that game is just that - expansive geography. -JC 08:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I think, to keep things small, the text might not fit on the map. The map at the link (now fixed, though you have to scroll down and select it yourself) is 600 pixels wide, which is fine for a game aid, but a little big (in my opinion) for an article. It would look fine on my screen, but might cause ugliness on lower resolutions. I therefore vote for the map + key choice. It is good you've thought of this alternative: the game is full of a rather eccentric and varied geography (and topography)... and especially since this feature is so often important in the defeat of Wander's foes, I agree it deserves inclusion. Especially if someone with greater skill in graphics than myself creates the map. Let's see what the others say.:)
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 08:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I see I've made an impression on you. Regardless of the means, this was my only intent, to get you to examine your own actions in deleting that contribution rather than simply delete it again. My work is done here 67.180.230.164 16:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I believe it was I who made a bigger impression, by being polite and bringing it to ZorkFox's attention, while also stating the fact that I, too, had some problems with the removal of such information without a comment on the talk page. I also tried to suggest ways to make the material more appropriate for the article. The means don't always justify the ends, and I don't think they do here, either. It would have been much more useful to simply post on the Talk Page here your feelings, I think. -JC 16:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If you need to communicate your disagreement with editing of a particular article you should bring it up in the talk section. After reading your talk page, I assume you were warned of consequences of vandalism and there is no reason for me to chime in, especially considering I don't have any authority in that regard. However, I strongly urge you to give Wikipidia guidelines a careful look, and discuss any of your disagreements in a constructive manner in article's talk pages.Tani unit 16:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Your methods, though effective, are reprehensible and generally counterproductive. The impression you made is not a good one. I have spent much energy replying to your attacks that I could have lavished on better projects. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort that depends on rational and polite communication between a great many people. Insults, profanity, and vandasism are neither rational, nor polite. I strongly urge you to be diplomatic and polite instead of antagonistic and rude: better results are inevitable. I tried to give my reasons for the deletion in the edit summary, but would have done better to seek opinion on the talk page, even though many of the contributors had already discussed our mutual take on the direction the article should go. Hopefully both of us will use this method in the future.

For now, since a suggestion has been made to improve the article with actual content, rather than a simplefied list of grid references (but no map), I suggest we put the unpleasant events of the past behind us and instead concentrate on construction rather than demolition. I would also appreciate it if you never again vandalized an article. Vandalism is a very efficient way of getting blocked forever from use of Wikipedia, including any registerd accounts you might have. Thanks for reading.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 03:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Shrine Map

Okay, I've made an image. Is it too small? D: I tried to make it small, but it might be illegible now... What do you think? A small table next to it would just list a-z and the names of the shrines. Since the name of the shrine is actually the name of the little area around it, it's useful for making the game's geography actually stand out. I mean, Misty Falls is a gorgeous place, so it's nice to put a name to it. Same thing with the Dried Marsh... and so on... -JC 06:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

The map is excellent, but some of the lettering on it hard to make out. Could you make the lettering stand out more by perhaps using a more contrasting color? It's quite pretty as an image right now, but the fucntional side of it suffers due to that. Tani unit 13:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Any suggestion on what colour would be better? I could also increase the size of the map slightly, which would likely improve the readability a tiny bit, too. -JC 16:27, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Sepia is a great color for maps. Good work with the design. Ryu Kaze 19:39, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

So you think this map works fine? Or should I change the colour of the lettering, or make the map larger? -JC 20:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• On second thought, the map looks fine as is. I was looking at it from a monitor that was breaking down so it made everything slightly fuzzy. On a normal monitor it looks perfectly readable. Go right ahead and put it in. Tani unit 21:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I realized I missed "f" on it, so really there's only 25 save temples (a-y), so I'm going to make a new copy of this when I get a chance. Then I can add it to the article. -JC 04:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It puts the Shadow in Shadow of the Colossus

Hey, what if by "Shadow of the Colossus" in the game's English title they're referring to the oily black fluid that pours out of them when they die? More specifically, what if it refers to Dormin? (64.230.46.167)

I'm assuming it's a reference to how long their shadows are because of their size. In any event, "Shadow" is just the English title, so I wouldn't look too deep into it. Ryu Kaze 05:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It could also refer to the 'dark side' of killing the colossi, see the story section for an explaination (careful for spoilers) Felsir 19:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The international site explains it all. {{spoilers}} The shadow figures are the figures of the Dormin who is beyond our world (spirit world?) we cannot see him in this world, but we can see his shadow cast out of that world. But its open to interpretation really I personally thought all of the Colossi carried a sort of shadow with them. Actually how did "Shadow of the" get wielded into the title? The original name is "Wanda and the Colossus". -- Psi edit 19:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The title was changed for the English-speaking market because "Wanda" is a female name in these countries. It's a coincidence (see the explanation in the European version section of the article), but I bet you ten bucks the game would not have succeeded so well if they'd left the title alone.
—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 20:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

You see, I knew Shadow when it was originally Wanda. The orginal title appeared in EGM but then in later issues was changed to Shadow. I still would have bought it (I was already interested) :). Anyway -- Psi edit 21:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The Wanderer's cloak

Does anyone think its worth noting that Wander's cloak has the same symbols as on the giant bridge. Has anyone noticed this? And is it worthy of noting anywhere? Dragosani 03:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Wander's cloak (tunic really) symbol is also the symbol of the Colossi's weak points, yes I think I noticed the bridge symbol designd once. It might be notable (Ico also has the symbol.....I think..On Ico's tunic) -- Psi edit 03:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Did Wander Die or Give Up?

At the end of the game, when Wander is almost completely possessed by Dormin, he is seen as an almost corpse-like image of himself, results of his body slowly being taken over by Dormin's souls. When Emon ordered Wander's death, he is shot in the thigh and then fatally stabbed (thorugh the heart?). He bleeds the blood of blackness as the Colossus does (however its proven that Wander's blood is infact red, taking away the possibility that the blood in this game may have just merely been colored back)

Wander rises from the ground exhausted and in great pain, as he removes the sword from his chest. After trying to reach out to Monno, Wander falls to the ground. Now in this summary, it seems like its saying that Wander is dead, but is he really? I actually believe that since Dormin had given Wander such strength as it transformed Wander's body, that the wound did not kill Wander (and gave him the strength to actually pull it out, and not die instantly). I actually believe that Wander collapses because he's exhausted from the 16 trails he had to complete, in a mass amount of pain from being shot/stabbed, and ultimately, he sight that although he had done what Dormin had asked of him, Monno seemingly is still dead, everything he did was for nothing. I think at that point, Wander cannot take anymore pain (physical and emotional) and collapses to the ground, not being able to fight off Dormin's possession any longer.

When Emon opens the portal, most of Dormin was removed of Wander, allowing him to regain control of his still corrupted body, now concious and still won't allow himself to give up on Monno. He runs to her, despite everything, and is tragically pulled away from her.

I'm wondering if thats the case. It doesn't seem like Wander was dead, as much as it seemed as if he had briefly lost all hope. I mean, he's still alive once Dormin is (mostly) removed from him. ---JackRaiden

Technically, Wikipedia's not a place for theories so much as documented facts, so I'm not sure of the relevance to this here. That said, I and another fan have written a huge plot and theory analysis for the game which you can see here. Ultimately, it's up to the player to decide things themselves, but his collapse, veiling by darkness after falling (the same as when the Colossi are killed) and subsequent status as a vehicle for Dormin suggest that he, did, indeed die. Some fans, like myself, have concluded that the Dormin revived Wander, either as thanks for having helped, as a means to carry their energy on into the future or both. Ryu Kaze 03:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Thats a pretty cool observation of yours. -- Psi edit 04:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I also would like to add that my theory kinda ties in with the "Illusion of Death" theme that goes on between the main characters. Monno is dead, and to some players surprise, Dormin gave it's word and brought her back to life. Agro tragically fell to what seemed like certain death, but in the end survived. I think Wander's stabbing with his sword adds to that theme, since apparently many thought it had killed Wander, only to see him still alive durring the Seal Sequence. ---JackRaiden

In case anyone was curious, after discussing it on GameFAQs, JackRaiden and I are starting to reach a mutual consensus that Wander was probably revived because his wounds were gone just like Mono's were after her resurrection, and that the Dormin tried getting some of their power to safety in Wander. Now we're theorizing on the Evil Queen of Ico utilizing the power passed down by Wander through his descendants and wondering what became of that power. XD Disagreements ever lead to collaborative theorizing; it's a beautiful thing. Ryu Kaze 05:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hiya folks, just completed the game and I for one think that it has sort of a happy ending if you really think about it. I mean, Mono was revived, Agro didn't die after all and Wander was reborn. Also I think that Wander did die but the cleansing power of that sword allowed him to be purified/turned into a baby. --FreemDeem 16:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Concept videos

Here is more on the early designs of Ico, Shadow, and Nico scroll down for the media. Really interesting to see the changes. -- Psi edit 02:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Neat, its nice to see some of the changes that were made over time... ~ REexpert44~

Does this trick have any place here?

I have removed the following from the article because it doesn't seem very encyclopedia (uses a lot of second person, and includes some first person, a huge no-no). It seems like it's just abusing a glitch to get to an area that wasn't intended to be reached, whereas the "Get to the top of the temple" trick seems to be intended to be reached, and only has a short blurb, not a detailed direction... Here's the text I cut:

• How to launch the Wanderer into the large room where Colossus 6 came out of—Here is the best strategy to get into the 6th Colossus's large room or lair: Get the 6th Colossus as close to the large room where he came out of, as possible. Now wait until he smashes the floor with his hand. Note: This may take a while. Also, when he smashes his hand down, be sure he is still as close as possible to the large room. Now, immediately after he smashes the floor, grab onto his arm/hand fur. Now he will start flinging you around with his arm violently. If when he swings his arm, you are near the large room, let go of his arm and you hopefully, will be flung into the large room. That is exactly what I did. It took me a few tries, but I pulled it off, so anyone can get into this room. This is the best strategy to get the Wanderer into this large room were Colossus 6 game out of. To sum everything up: The only thing of any significance is: The large room has a strange, large, blue, central, symbol on the floor. Also, the Colossus just stands as close as possible to the edge of the room endlessly walking forward and stomping the floor. When I tried everything possible in the room, using secret weapons, moving against the dark walls, shooting flash arrows, ect. I discovered nothing further. I eventually gave up and just jumped back down. It's not a piece of cake and takes much practice and patience to get in that mysterious large room.

Discovered by Jeremy Prusak aka Legaiaflame2

What do you guys think? -JC 19:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you were absoluely correct in the removal of that section. Wikipedia is not a gamefaqs,and encyclopediac articles do not endorse such informatoin. Excellent work. -Zero^Talk 19:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not exactly a game guide or anything suitable for GameFAQs, but I'm not sure if it's worth putting in this article. Saying you can climb the temple is one thing, because it's a rather huge thing, seems intended, and requires a lot of time and effort... Saying you can get into an unintended area by flining yourself through walls isn't. There's also a glitch where you can jump up to some ledges on Agro, many of which aren't actually solid (ie never intended to be walked on), and let you fall through them into stuff, which lets you see much more around you (or fall infinitely do you death, whatnot)... but those don't get included here, and with good reason :P
I just moved it here instead of simply taking it out because I am heavily opposed to removing things without any discussion, so if I remove anything longer than a few words, I tend to post about it on the Talk Page...  :) -JC 19:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

If you haven't removed it, I would have. Irrelevant gameplay information, written from user's POV, has no place in this article. Good work. Tani unit 20:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. I am in agreement. I mean, if this was actually significant, a sentence or two is more than enough, but this is kind of ridiculous. Climbing the temple is far, far more significant than this, and this has over twice as much text for it... and it's even got a credit to it, which means it's probably a bit of vanity... I'll keep up the good work with keeping an eye on the page ^_^ After all, we all want Wikipedia to be the best there is. I assume the person who added this to the page felt he was helping, but I really don't see it as being appropriate (or particularly in an encyclopedic style, even)... I mean, it's a neat trick, but it's important for these kinds of things to show why they're important. This just didn't seem to fit the bill... -JC 20:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Linking directly to GameFAQ's FAQs.

You're not permitted to link directly to GameFAQ's FAQs. I'm going to make appropriate edits. -JC 03:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Problem with page, cannot place this post below so ill do it here SOMONE FIX THIS DAMN THING

I don't think Fumito Ueda would agree with that. I don't think he would even appreciate other people contexts and claims on how he made his game! The only person who can per say what is and what was done are

               Character Design Shunpei Suzuk               
               Character Design Hitoshi Niwa 
               And Ueda himself!

In an interview with Ueda it was asked "Did you use other Cultures and Mythology's as a basis for your game, he replyed "I wanted to create a new world, one that was brought from the spark of my own imagination. While most would attribute some aspects The only platform I used in creating the game was thanks to the support of our team who worked as a family during the entire project and our own creative thoughts".

While its true of course Japanese games like Final Fantasy uses other civilizations for most of there game such as Bahamut who was derived from the Islamic stories of a Godly sea creature. Or the Ifrit. Shiva from Norse myth, etc... Ueda Does not nor has mentioned nor has said nor has any of his team members or company or Publishers in fact he clearly states he "DiD NoT" End quote. Hence her ideas are her own and her own wishful thinking, hence it will be deleted

The reason I am Anon at the moment is we all know Wikipedia tenuous IP problems in that some times accounts become troublesome to log into so until the time mine is fixed ill be Anon but that wont stop me from making sure Wikipedians are not inputting there own Ideas and there own theory's and dodging the Facts

Wikipedia= A database for Human knowledge and Facts

Please lets keep it that way and not Revert my edit, thank you-Anon

mono is Queen?

[quote]Some fans note similarities in appearance between Mono and the Queen in ICO, leading to speculation that the Queen is Mono many years into the future.[/quote]

WOW. Oh my god I would have never thought. This cant be, can someone explain this to me. The Sweet Mono is the Queen in Ico.

Now we all know Ico is the one in the long line of Wanders Cursed Progeny.

Dormin dident possess Wander. Dormin is nothing but the very essences of the Demons why he refers to himself as "we" and its seen when more of those dark creatures being absorbed into the Dormin (Them) in the end hence Dormin is not a Demon but the Darkness the Taint of the race called Dormin. Ok so Dormin sais youv "broken my body" which suggests he had one body hence one being, but I don't just dont know. While in the Quran God Refers to himself as "we" could this be the reason Dormin is doing so to? He couldn't have possessed Wander he most likely tainted his soul and corrupted him for the Demons (Dormins) to absorb into him and become the living being Dormin. Looking at dormin you can see that he cant be a single unit he seems more like a "Blight" or Taint. He isent evil thats for sure (Evil=Acts in his own interests no matter what the cost to others) and in Dormins case thats not true he warns wander st the start and even at death keeps his word... In fact I think Ueda just managed to create the first Real villain. Not one who is a mad man or lunatic or just pure evil but a godly sort of creature that is trying to revive itself(What dormin will do after words I dont know).

What about Wanders memory. Iam putting all my hope in all that is decent that he remembers at least what has happened and what he has done! Its to great to leave to the dust!. I cant belive he would love and consummate with a girl who surly raised him like her son and then have her children which grow to be a thousand year epidemic of Cursed boys with horns. He wasent killed he was just Reverted sucking all the taint he had in him but doing so also sucked what the taint was clinging to, his body, his age, his self whatever. But iam sure the effects of that spell emnon casted was meant to suck the taint but sucked with it Wanders being a bit. But iamn hoping his memory is still intact and that when he grows up enough it will come back to him. Hopefully.Kara Umi 21:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

A couple things

1. The collosai names need a citation. I see some conjecture in the archives that they are from some Japanese magazine feature, so placing that would be nice. It just needs to be verifiable. If it isn't verifiable, it should be deleted as per WP:VERIFY.

It says on the page that it comes from the preorder Japanese version "making of" CD. Can anyone find a source that says this is true? I'm not sure where to look, but it'd likely be a Japanese source (ie a touch hard to find). I just remove a citation needed tag, but not because it has citation (I think it does, a little, although it's true it needs citation for verification of that source as a source, I guess?) but because it broke the page horribly :P Feel free to re-add it as long as it doesn't cause everything to fall into that last table block.  :) -JC 06:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

2. The article is long, and needs a lot of editing. A couple thing that could be easily is to move the soundtrack information onto a separate page and to delete the Save point section. --Weebot 20:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Any suggestions as to the name of the article for the soundtrack? Tani unit 00:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, the name of the soundtrack? I think it was called Roar of the Earth, though I imagine that we would want things like "Shadow of the Colossus OST" to redirect there.--Weebot 17:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I moved the info to new page. Anyone is welcome to create appropriate stubs, categories, redirects, and add infobox and cover image. I'll try to get to it later if noone does it by then. Tani unit 19:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

What does Nimrod have to do with Dormin, LOL because his name is spelled backwords into that, give me a break. Iam going to Edit that section with an [b]actuall[/b] description of Dormin without Bibel mobo jumbo cluddering this Article-Anon

Just because you don't understand a theory or disagree with a theory doesn't make it any less legit.

Your edit is reverted. Tani unit 22:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

No, iam afraid wikipedia is not the place for that. Keep your theory's and own ideals to yourself. Just because I think the first Colossus resembles my uncle Karsus doesent mean I go and write my theory that it was derived from him therefor; Revert - Anon

Anonymous, this isn't Tani unit's theory, or any particular person's. It isn't Original Research. Dormin~Nimrod connections are more than just in name - there are a lot of connections between them... and many web sites discuss these in more detail. It's only a brief aside showing that there are similarities between the two, so it's not even a "theory" per se. Also, it very much has place in a Japanese game - various game directors, including Japanese ones - often look to other sources for inspiration. Please do not delete this material again. -JC 05:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Fumito Ueda would agree with that. I don't think he would even appreciate other people contexts and claims on how he made his game! The only person who can per say what is and what was done are Character Design Shunpei Suzuki

                 Character Design Hitoshi Niwa 
                    And Ueda himself!

In an interview with Ueda it was asked "Did you use other Cultures and Mythology's as a basis for your game, he replyed "I wanted to create a new world, one that was brought from the spark of my own imagination. While most would attribute some aspects The only platform I used in creating the game was thanks to the support of our team who worked as a family during the entire project and our own creative thoughts".

While its true of course Japanese games like Final Fantasy uses other civilizations for most of there game such as Bahamut who was derived from the Islamic stories of a Godly sea creature. Or the Ifrit. Shiva from Norse myth, etc... Ueda Does not nor has mentioned nor has said nor has any of his team members or company or Publishers in fact he clearly states he "DiD NoT" End quote. Hence her ideas are her own and her own wishful thinking, hence it will be deleted

The reason I am Anon at the moment is we all know Wikipedia tenuous IP problems in that some times accounts become troublesome to log into so until the time mine is fixed ill be Anon but that wont stop me from making sure Wikipedians are not inputting there own Ideas and there own theory's and dodging the Facts

Wikipedia= A database for Human knowledge and Facts

Please lets keep it that way and not Revert my edit, thank you-Anon

Wikipedia is not a database for facts. It is based on verifiability... and consensus. You really should get an account here - there's no "troublesome to log into" problems - if you're going to claim you know all about what Wikipedia is supposed to be and how it works. Then it might be easier to take you seriously.
I don't know where you're pulling that quote from. Can you get a real quote? I highly doubt there wasn't any intended connections between Dormin and Nimrod - just look at all of the similarities. -JC 22:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I would also suggest you read Wikipedia:Resolving disputes. -JC 22:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Dormin's Character

I am moving this to the talk page until our anonymous friend decides to stop reverting everything anyone tries to do. I really don't appreciate people simply reverting my contributions when I'm trying to make sure things have cited sources. You can't just remove something that has no citation - not if someone's trying to find sources for it. In addition, this may have cited sources in the References section. I did say it might, and put the "citation needed" in just in case it was needed. I am greatly opposed to removing information from Wikipedia of any sort without any real need.
So here's the text that keeps getting removed by anonymous user:

The character of Dormin was apparently inspired by the biblical character Nimrod. The primary connection made between the two is that Dormin is an anagram of Nimrod. Certain legends attribute the construction of the Tower of Babel to Nimrod. The Shrine of Worship could be seen as a representation of the Tower of Babel: it is the largest structure, by far, in the entire area, and is easily visible from almost every location, a visual that is consistent with popular interpretations of the tower legend. Furthermore, both Dormin and Nimrod were dismembered, and their pieces spread throughout the land. After Nimrod's death, his wife Semiramis claimed that Nimrod had become the Sun God. When Dormin speaks to Wander in the shrine, its voice seems to issue from a large hole in the ceiling where sunlight streams in.

Now, let's start. Is there any references cited? Any publications that talk about this game which suggest that there is some connection between Dormin and Nimrod? It doesn't matter whether it's true, just as long as it's verifiable - especially because this just shows tentative connections. All of this is already fact - if we simply change the first sentence to read "The character of Dormin shares many similarities with the biblical character Nimrod" then there is nothing even remotely untrue about that entire section... so anonymous user must simply hate the fact that someone saw these connections? I'm really confused as to why anonymous user is upset... And it wasn't Tani Unit or myself who put it up there, but someone long ago - and it's been all over the internet, I'm sure. Any reputable sites suggest as much? That'd be enough to have it verifyable, and by Wikipedia policy, be worthwhile in the article. -JC 22:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I might be off here, but i think our anonemous friend seems to display a fanboy attitude towards this particular game-maker.

It is full known (as well as reflected in discussions archives of this page) that Ueda stated originally that the game has no connections to Ico despite all the similarities, only to retract that comment later and to confirm that the games are related. In light of this, i simply don't see why official confirmation or denial are of any relevance. There is enough similarities to make this a solid theory, besides, it is presented as such, not as official canon of any sort. Facts presented are not some rampant speculations like anon seems to suggest, but rather connections that are stated in game or can be observed in game by anyone. Tani unit 23:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Still, even theories that make perfect sense are not allowed on Wikipedia due to its verifibility requirement... Just stating these connections isn't appropriate - there needs to be some kind of peer-reviewed publication that discusses such a connection. Do any online gaming sites do so? That would be enough. Otherwise, the theory that Mono may become the Queen from Ico should be allowed in, as well, and that one is most definitely tenuous at best. If the only speculators are a few players of the game who saw the naming link and pulled everything else out, that's not appropriate for Wikipedia no matter how correct any individual point is. I'd personally like this to be in the article, since if it's removed, someone is going to add it back in somewhere along the way almost certainly.... because it's so widespread, I would assume it's appropriate for the article. If it'll be added in eventually by someone who doesn't read this part of the Talk Page, then shouldn't it be part of the page? I don't know, it just seems silly to remove something that someone else is definitely going to want to add back in later on due to it being so widespread. Sigh. -JC 23:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

ehmm. I see now, this is just your agenda and that's ok because I really don't care nor do I approve of people inputting Uncited sections without actually source other then there own heart earned personal view. You contradict yourself even tho it does show you at least know the rules and have at least intention to abide you don't however do so.

* One: your going to have put sources that's basic wiki standard. * Two: your going to have Cite your evidence and the reason for such claims * Three: your going to have to stop reverting it when you yourself admit it has no citation...

Number three is enough for me to revert so iam going to do so.

You don't speak for Mr Ueda nor his team, nor do you represent his views.

{I might be off here, but i think our anonemous friend seems to display a fanboy attitude towards this particular game-maker.}

That's rather charming, I could do without the personal attacks its childish. Iam sure you've been in Wiki long enough to know that. Iam going to stop right there I don't want to get pulled into a Flame Baiting frenzy with the Riff Raff.

What you appreciate or don't is none of anyone's concern nor do I think they care. What is of concern is the way Information is presented and inputted into Wikipedia articles. Come now must I link to yuo the rules, its a degrading behavior one I hope to miss. Iam sure you realize all the concepts that are needed here you have said yourself now I expect you not to revert articles simply because "You worked so hard on it". Your opposing removing information on wikipedia isn't of concern either.

And your claim the Mr.Ueda has said in the past that Ico has no connection with SOC, could you please link a source to us not that it even matters. I see you two find it easy to tell someone to link a source but do nothing yourself. For this very reason of arrogance iam going to retract my link until you do so yourself.

Above all don't be to highly heated that you sink low to making personal attacks this is just the Internet please get over yourself (Wether that was an attack on my part or not ill let you decide, if so, it was needed).

You two have made (If so) some really good contributions, and I really liked the article. Iam sure you have a lot of things to add and input hence I don't want to waste time here and would rather have this finished here and now. If you like I can simply cite my own (with sources I might add :) ) "Theory" On Dormin and his origins in real life Mythology. I could also easily do the same for Emnon as his name (LOL) spelled backwards becomes the name of an ancient Egyptian priest called Nonme (Nahnmie) and that he was infact brought from that mythology as he to was a priest and wore a mask like Emnon as it was documented once the Egyptian's wore masks (LOL) etc.. and other nonsense. But iam not iam not that foolhardy :) Kara Umi 01:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, the similarities are evident, but that doesn't cut it. The guy (whatever his name was, I don't remember) has said there's no connection to other cultures. I realize he's retracted comments before, but we can't assume he's a-gonna do the same with this one. Until he says otherwise, we should go on his final words. If you want to include it, maybe it should be in a "fan theories" section (there ae plenty of other fan theories about this game) or something. At least make sure it's very clear that it's all theoretical, and has been denied by Whatsisface. I personally would be in favor of including the info under a theory section of some short. We could even mention that the game has numerous fan theories. Karwynn 02:00, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Karwynn has the right idea, if you two would like we could put up a Fan Theory section which would work for the article. I would be as happy to include my own theory's as well as I do have some. Ueda leaves much of the story untold on purpose as to the gamers themselves can decide the story. I would be happy to help with such a thing ^_^ Kara Umi 02:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think fan speculation warrants it's own section, let alone an entire article. There is a lot of nonsence out there, and even the best theories are just that - theories. As far as Dormin's character, let me clarify - I'm not the one who made the connections or wrote said text. I simply police this article due to a large number of users who constantly make bad edits, and vandalism to this article is not uncommon either. If the removal is warranted under wikipedia guildelines I'll go along with it. Tani unit 02:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Then its time you police this article in the current arrangment of the Rules. Your now going to have to contend with these below:

Rule one:[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_articles ]]

Rule Two: [[1]]

Rule three [[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability]]

Iam pretty sure you know what each one is refering to. Please read through these then consider again your position in this matter. We would perhaps support a seperate section for theory's and debates along with Major additions by me ^_^

And iam happy you've made the major contrabutions to this article and keeping it safe. I understand your need to protect this page and I wouldent want to stand in your way because I know how it feels. So Mrs.Tani would you agree to a seperate section for Theory's to be made ^_^ Kara Umi 06:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Please don't insult me by posting rules and asking me to reconsider my position after I already agreed with you and thoroughly explained that;

a) I did not write the section in question b) I don't mind any edits as long as they are justified c) I already agreed with the edit and removal of the section.

I realize I might sound defensive on this, but your last post read as very patronizing. I agree with the edit so that's that.

Oh, and I happen to be a he. Lastly, I think wee should take any further discussion that does not pertain directly to the article to one of our talk pages. :) Tani unit 10:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Your a guy! LOL, I could have sworn I saw your name else where... Guess not thought you were someone else ;).

Thank you for coming to an agreement, I dident fully realize you have done so but iam glad you made it clear now, with the short and to the point words of I agree ;)

Oh and iam sorry if the rules that I posted seemed to insult you it wasent my intention but I did want to close this argument right away so i had to get to the point. And they werent mainly for you it was for also "JC" :) Kara Umi 18:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

If it was meant for me, I suggest you read some of the rules, too. Simply re-reverting a revert is not standard Wikipedia procedure. I strive to ensure conflict resolution happens in the best possible way - by people discussing things out on the talk page before huge changes are made to the article (such as things being removed). At the very least, you should have moved this section to the Talk Page (just like I did) and request a citation, rather than simply eliminating it and saying "There's no proof!" like a child would - maybe there is proof?
Like I said earlier, if even one online site (not someone's personal site, but something like IGN) mentioned this connection, it would be viable to put up, as it would have a reference. For all I know, one of the reference sites already up mentions it - that's why I was asking if citation was needed. If nobody can come up with anything, then there's no choice but to remove it from the article, but I do think people should be given a chance to do so. Removing it completely does not all that. -JC 23:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Er, wait. Sorry. I thought you were that anonymous person who removed it in the first place. I may have been a bit harsh, then. Most of this above message was to him or her. However, one thing still stands : I really don't feel this removal was done appropriately from the very beginning. If you really do want to follow the rules, you'd not support blind removal of information, too.  :) Let's work together to make sure Wikipedia goes smoothly, okay? Conflict resolution is part of it, and it's important to try to sort things out as nicely as possible. And to remember that everyone just wants to make Wikipedia better - I don't know why our anonymous friend got so upset, as if it were personal that someone wanted this material not to be deleted without any real discussion... Oh well. -JC 23:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)