Talk:Sermon of Zaynab bint Ali in the court of Yazid

Lack of NPOV and failure to include include all significant viewpoints[edit]

@Toddy1: What parts contain POV? You have tagged the article without explaining it on the talk page. Mhhossein (talk) 12:12, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

100%. There has been no attempt at neutral point of view. For example, it does not explain how kindly she and her family were treated by Yazid ibn Muawiyah. Nor does it explain how he forbade one the family from being forced into an unwished-for marriage. As for the so-called sermon, the best that can be said of the historical records is that they might have got the general drift of what she said right when they wrote it down hundreds of years later.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:23, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree with you Toddy1. We can never say that 100% of the article lacks NPOV. As the history says they were treated in a harsh manner. How can you call it kind? We are not here to judge how historical records are generally done, are we? --Mhhossein (talk) 04:14, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As described by Tabari, the treatment of the captives after the battle of Karbala was humiliating, but otherwise not too bad; none were raped or enslaved (compare that with the massacre and enslavement of the inhabitants of Caesarea by Muslims 40 years earlier). But the description in Tabari's history of how the caliph treated them shows that he treated them amazingly well.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:58, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We are not here to judge that those treatments (It's not a WP:forum here). Please consider talking about the POV issue. You point to the exact points or the tag will be removed. Btw, why did you restore the second tag? --Mhhossein (talk) 12:29, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I HAVE pointed to the issues that the article is not neutral POV, and fails to include other significant viewpoints. However, your talk messages and deletion of one of the tags indicate that you do not listen.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:16, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Toddy1: I would not come to talk page if I were not going to listen. You believe that the article lacks NPOV, OK there's already a tag showing this. The second tag is really excess. You even fail to explain what should be added and how they should be done to solve the alleged POV issue. Instead of drive-tagging the articles, try to improve them please. Mhhossein (talk) 04:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But I have explained.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:59, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Which do you think would be a better course of action with this article?

Propose it for deletion? Grounds for this would be that Wikipedia is specifically not an indiscriminate collection of information.
Try to fix the problems with it? To do this someone would need to do three things in my opinion:

Show other points of view.
Fix the NPOV problem.
Show that the sermon was notable in itself, and was not merely an event in the woman's life.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:38, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are talking about NPOV and the viewpoints of others all the time. Nothing will be solved repeating them in WP pages! add at least one of those opinions using a reliable sources instead, or one may think your objection is due to a biased approach. Mhhossein (talk) 12:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]