Talk:Scouting in the United States/Archive 1

Archive 1

Baden-Powell Scout Association

Here is the only U.S. website I am aware of.[1] --Jagz 04:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Looking at it, there appear to have been no updates since 2003 according to their Upcoming page. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

According to Troop 97, 1st Tarrant is affiliated with BPSA, but is not recognized by WFIS. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Should the article include, "Baden-Powell Scouts is recognized by the World Federation of Independent Scouts"? Are there verifiable active units in the USA associated with WFIS?

I may delete this reference due to lack of citation. --Jagz 17:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to contact a B-P leader over at Scouter.com, but the site is down again. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There are some WFIS contacts available.[2] --Jagz 23:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Navigators and SpiralScouts offer inclusive programs

Here is some information for this article:

<http://www.uuworld.org/news/articles/45487.shtml>

RELATED RESOURCES

SpiralScouts. Earth-centered youth program sponsors 80 groups nationwide. (SpiralScouts.org)

Navigators. New York youth group offers alternative to Scouting. (NavigatorsUSA.org)

Work to Change Discriminatory Policies of Boy Scouts of America. Resolution adopted by the 1999 UUA General Assembly. (UUA.org)

Media Archive: Boy Scouts, Gays, Unitarian Universalists, and the Supreme Court. Includes media coverage of UUA's 1999 dispute with the Boy Scouts of America. (UUA.org)

Unitarian Universalist Scouters Organization. Officially recognized organization for Unitarian Universalists in the Boy Scout movement. (UUScouters.org)
--Jagz 17:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Constitutionality of federal charter

Is the BSA's federal charter constitutional? As stated in the article:

Although the use of religious tests by the federal government is unconstitutional in the United States, the U.S. Congress granted the charter to a private organization that uses a religious test for membership screening. The charter effectively gives the BSA a competitive advantage over other organizations who may wish to establish a Scouting program by giving the BSA exclusive rights that they have used for legal purposes as discussed in the Litigation section.

It seems that the federal government granting a charter to a private organization that uses a religious test for membership screening may be unconstitutional based on the Establishment Clause, especially because the charter gives the BSA exclusive rights that they have used to stifle competition. Does anyone know if the constitutionality of the federal charter has ever been challenged on this basis? --Jagz 15:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

No it's not unconstitutional. The religious test applies to the fed gov, not private orgs. Rlevse 15:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

It would seem to me that if congress were to start applying religious tests to charters, then they would also have to apply gender and other similar tests, and they would have to be applied to all of the organizations. At least half of the chartered organizations could be considered exclusionary in some manner. I don't see myself being able to join the Jewish War Veterans or the Daughters of the American Revolution. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking that the charter may violate the Establishment Clause. Also, by granting a charter and giving the BSA exclusive rights the U.S. Congress seems to be involved with using religious tests by proxy. --Jagz 15:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I really think that's stretching it. Rlevse 16:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel obliged to remind everyone that it doesn't matter what we think here and that it is not up to us to judge the issue. Some of the material in the section in question is already teetering on a synthesis of material that seems to push a point. Now that I look at it more in depth, the article seems to be something of a coatrack for the section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with that. Rlevse 16:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I was asking if anyone knew if the constitutionality of the federal charter had ever been challenged on that basis. If so, I could research it and add the information to the article. The more I learned brought me to the conclusion that there may be an issue of constitutionality here, however, I have no legal training to base this on. I moved most of the information to a new article. --Jagz 20:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Lack of opportunity

The article doesn't discuss the lack of Scouting opportunities in the USA for gay, atheist, and agnostic boys. --Jagz (talk) 15:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've had the edit window open all day on just this. Is there any evidence that Youthscouts or StarScouting actually have any units or members? Navigators does seem to have a few units (I have a feeling the UUA might adopt them) and Frontier Girls actually have photos of girls in uniform. ScoutPride seems to be the successor to the CIS; is it actually doing anything? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It appears that Youthscouts may no longer be incorporated.[3] --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 04:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this issue deserves mention. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about their membership. --Jagz (talk) 04:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge

Wasn't most of Boy Scouts of America's predominance split from this article not too long ago? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

support its merger back here. It has now been renamed History of Scouting in the United States Chris (クリス) (talk) 08:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

support merge it back here and then we can chop the hell out of it. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

support the predominance article is a POV fork. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

support-Phips (talk) 21:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Other organizations

Other organizations to explore:

• Pioneer Girls of America- became Camp Fire Girls
• Bee Hive Girls (probably LDS)
• Boy Pioneers of America / Boy Rangers of America
• Girls' Friendly Society of the USA
• Girls' Auxiliary / Girls In Action
• Girls Clubs of America / Girls Inc.
• Oriole Girls
• Rhode Island Boy Scouts

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

"Seton created a Brownies program in 1921 for girls and boys ages 6–11, based on his book, Woodland Tales; this program later merged into the GSUSA." - removed until verified --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 03:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Tarzan clubs

Were the Tarzan clubs Scout-like?[4] --Jagz (talk) 22:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I've read that before. (Interestingly, Staunton is a few miles away from me). It seems more of a fan club. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

There are elements of both of Scouting and of a fan club. It was a mixture.-Phips (talk) 21:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Article merger

Is the merger of the article History of Scouting in the United States into this article complete? --Jagz (talk) 16:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Take a look and see what may need to be moved yet. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there anything below you can use in this article? --Jagz (talk) 19:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

In the early years of Scouting in the United States of America, there were several Scouting organizations such as the Boy Scouts of America, National Scouts of America, Peace Scouts of California, Polish National Alliance Scouts, Rhode Island Boy Scouts, United States Boy Scouts, Lone Scouts, and many more. The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) soon emerged as the largest source of Scouting to boys in the United States, a position it maintains to this day. The BSA is the only Scouting association of significance in the United States that boys can join and there are no comparable alternative organizations available to them throughout most of the country. The situation is different in some countries where there are currently a number of Scouting associations, including Canada and some European countries.

Scouting is a worldwide youth movement that began in the United Kingdom in 1907. After the founding of the Boy Scouts of America in 1910 and having received the endorsement of Baden-Powell, the BSA began an active campaign to absorb all other Scout-type youth organizations in the United States. As a result, almost all competitors had ceased to exist within a few years. These mergers were friendly or necessitated by smaller Scouting organizations losing support to the growing BSA. The BSA administered their version of Scouting, which became the predominant version of Scouting in the United States.

References

New groups

• StarScouting America is now Adventure Scouts USA [5]. I still see no evidence of membership.
• Camp Quest "is the first residential summer camp in the history of the United States for the children of Atheists, Freethinkers, Humanists, Brights, or whatever other terms might be applied to those who hold to a naturalistic, not supernatural world view." This is a summer program only, so I'm not sure it would be classed as a Scout-like organization. [6]

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

attention tag

The header needs a rewrite. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 19:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite attempted. --Una Smith (talk) 02:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The article POV is not neutral. It is too Scout-oriented. It needs to incorporate, among other themes, experiential education. So, I am leaving the cleanup tag in place. --Una Smith (talk) 02:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

UH, it's about Scouting. It is not about experimental education. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

That was "experiential" education, a term I had not encountered before. It seems more formal than Scouting's methods of informal education, but probably quite relevant to Learning for Life. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 02:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The BSA has exclusive rights to the term "Scouting" in the United States

I am clarifying in the opening paragraph of this article that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) holds the exclusive rights to the term "Scouting" in the United States. The BSA adopted the word Scouting at it's founding in 1911. The 1916 Federal charter 36 USC § 21 et. seq. gives the BSA "the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words and phrases [the BSA] adopts." Likewise, the domain scouting.org refers only to the BSA. — Milominderbinder2 ^talk 18:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Scouting is a world wide movement for young people and it is used in that context on wikipedia and for this article. The article mirrors similar articles for almost all countries in the world. It might be appropriate to mention the use of the BSA having exclusive rights to the term somewhere in the article, but it is not appropriate to put that in the lead replacing the previous material that explained it was covering all Scouting in the US. I have reverted this edit. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The BSA and the GSUSA share some trademark names, such as Scout in the context of Scouting. The BSA has allowed some other organizations in the past to use Scout, notably the Lone Scouts of America. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I am with Bduke and Gadget850. For example the Külföldi Magyar Cserkészszövetség, former Hungarian Scouts in Exile, are members of the International Forum of Hungarian Scouting (Hungarian WOSM und WAGGGS NSOs are also in this forum), took (i.e.1951,1957) and take part in World Scout Jamborees, cooperated with WOSM to support the Rebirth of Scouting in Hungary and has close ties to the Hungarian Scouts and Guides. Külföldi Magyar Cserkészszövetség is also an important part of the American-Hungarian community. So I can´t agree with your statement.-Phips (talk) 16:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The term "Scouting" is United States Trademark #73282546, first used on April 30, 1913. Partical List of BSA Trademarked Properites of the Boy Scouts of America. US House US Code Title 36 CHAPTER 309-Boy Scouts of Americagives the BSA "the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words and phrases [the BSA] adopts." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Milominderbinder2 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

So what? Wikipedia is not bound by this ruling. Our job is to write a neutral article on Scouting that covers all Scouting organizations in each country. This article is the first portal into Scouting in the USA and it briefly covers all organizations that have links to Scouting organizations internationally or otherwise use the Scout method. It should not be restricted to the BSA. --Bduke (Discussion) 23:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

"Scouting" is the exclusive trademark of the Boy Scouts of America encompassing a family of trademarked youth programs including "Boy Scouts". "Girl Scouting" is the exclusive trademark of the Girl Scouts of the USA. Look at the article on Kleenex. It starts by saying Kimberly-Clark owns the trademark and notes that other facial tissues are made by other companies. By first noting that "Scouting" is a trademark, we avoid trademark dilution of the brand "Scouting". If this were an article on the "Scouting Movement in the United States", it would not need a trademark note as that is a generic term. But this is a neutral article specifically about a trademarked brand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Milominderbinder2 (talk • contribs) 03:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

This is an article about the "Scouting Movement in the United States"

This is an article about the "Scouting Movement in the United States", but we use the form of title that has been accepted here for similar articles on all countries. The "neutral article specifically about a trademarked brand" is Boy Scouts of America. --Bduke (Discussion) 03:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I just read the trademark you cite at [7]; it is indeed a trademark fo "Scouting", but in the context of Scouting magazine. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

You are right and that needs to be noted as well. "Scouting" in the United States is the magazine for adult leaders of the Boy Scouts of America.

If this article is supposed to be about the "Scouting Movement in the United States," then it should be renamed so as not to delute the trademark "Scouting." "Scouting Movement" is a generic term and would not require a note that it is a trademark. "Scouting Movement in the United States" is like the article for facial tissue. "Scouting in the United States is like the corresponding article for Kleenex. If you want to use the trademarked word Scouting in the United States, you need an introductory note explaining that it is trademarked. We have fair use of trademarks but we must cite them as trademarks. Milominderbinder2 ^talk 17:13, 28 September 2008

U.S. Supreme Court/Life Saving Scouts

"After the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the BSA's rights to the "Scouting" service mark, several scounting organizations were forced to change their names."

This seems sourced from:

• Sloan, Bill. "Partners in Service". Scouting (September 2001).

What case went before the U.S. Supreme Court? I suspect the author meant the New York Supreme Court case against the American Boy Scouts in 1919.

"In 1918, the Life Saving Scouts changed its name to LifeSaving Guards-Boys..."

The New York case was in 1919, so the timeline does not work.

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 13:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

MAS Scouting

Hello MAS Scouting is linked to the BSA und Girl Scouts of America. It is a project by the American Muslime Society.

"MAS Scouting Department (MSD) is the arm of the Muslim American Society that caters to the youngest generation of Muslim Americans, starting at the age of five. Established in August 2002, MSD is helping to network over 30 girls and boys scout units across the U.S. working through the Boy and Girl Scouts of America. Almost 1500 scouts are part of the MAS Scouting Department, which provides a network for all Islamic Scouting programs. " Source: http://muslimamericansociety.org/main/content/scouting-department

Informations: [8], [9],[10](among the changing photos is one of their Scout Troop,they all wear BSA uniforms). -Phips (talk) 12:47, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

As I read it, the MAS has adopted the BSA and GSUSA programs, similar to the BSA adoption by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:59, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I understand it the same way. So it is not a different Scouting programme. It is a chartred organization within the BSA and GSUSA. It is service for a youth with a "special background" inside of Scouting. Similar to the American Indian Scouting Association.[11]-Phips (talk) 13:16, 3 September 2012 (UTC)