Talk:S.U.C.C.E.S.S.

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Successcanada (talk · contribs)

United Front?[edit]

The first United Front overseas meeting was in 2015:

"In 2015, the CCP held its first Central Committee Conference on United Front Work* and President Xi established a leading small group† on United Front Work with himself at its head"

S.U.C.C.E.S.S. was created a long time before 2015.

While 2 of the references mention what some of the alleged offices of the United Front Work Department might be involved with, but those 2 references don't mention S.U.C.C.E.S.S. 1 of the references mentions S.U.C.C.E.S.S. as a place for Chinese people to get help in other countries, but doesn't mention the United Front Work Department.

Many countries might post resources for their citizens in foreign countries, such as the existence of a Croatian, Polish, Korean, etc community hall/centre in Vancouver, doesn't mean that the Croatian cultural centre is setup by the Croatian government. Aufumy (talk) 09:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Overseas Chinese Affairs Office has been part of the united front systems for decades. - Amigao (talk) 18:49, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not according to the wikipedia page that you linked:

"In March 2018, it was announced that the OCAO and its functions, such as China News Service, would be merged into various internal bureaus of the United Front Work Department"

The English words may seem similar but the Chinese words are completely different. SUCCESS was referred to as 华助中心. No mention of them being associated with the United Front or OCAO. The Chinese words for OCAO are 侨务办公室

The only office in Canada in 2014 was "Canada Dohua Association" Aufumy (talk) 02:15, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On its website, OCAO designated S.U.C.C.E.S.S as an overseas help center.^[1] Nothing in dispute about that. Amigao (talk) 17:08, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "designation", it is listed as a place where people can get help overseas. There is no government ceremony, no official linkage. Aufumy (talk) 05:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In your opinion, just because an organization is listed on a foreign governments website, do you believe that it means 100% that the organization is organized by the foreign government? Aufumy (talk) 05:38, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So are all these organizations part of Polands United front? https://www.gov.pl/web/canada-en/polish-organizations-and-cultural-centers-in-canada Aufumy (talk) 05:45, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is this Croatians United front? Mala Gospa Croatian Catholic Parish in Edmonton, and Croatian Canadian Cultural Centre in Calgary?

https://mvep.gov.hr/news-136573/consular-event-for-alberta/176660 Aufumy (talk) 05:47, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the united front is broader than the United Front Work Department. Best not to conflate the two. Amigao (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not the one conflating, the wikipedia page is the one that stated SUCCESS is part of the "United Front Work Department", even if the only time that was mentioned was on an OCAO website in 2016. At that time OCAO was not part of United Front Work Department. Aufumy (talk) 05:36, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking for a 3rd opinion. My discussion with @Amigao seems to be at a standstill.

I'm disputing this sentence "In 2015, SUCCESS was designated an "Overseas Chinese Services Organization" by the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office of the Chinese Communist Party's United Front Work Department.[9][10][11]"

1) There was no "designation as an 'Overseas Chinese Services Organization'", one might say it is "listed as an overseas help center in 2016". Polish government website also lists cultural centres in Canada. Doesn't mean Polish Cultural centres in Canada are "designated by the Polish Government". The excessive mention of various government bodies is unnecessary, as there is no evidence that the Chinese government is involved with SUCCESS. None of the 3 links illustrate that.

Also the Chinese words for an OCAO office appears to be 侨务办公室, whereas SUCCESS was listed as 华助中心.

2) Amigao mentions OCAO is part of "united front" system for decades, not to be confused by "United Front Work Department". Whether that is true or false is irrelevant to the issue at hand. One would have to prove that SUCCESS is part of OCAO, which was never done.

Even if Amigao can prove that OCAO is part of "united front" for decades, (which they didn't do) the page claims that SUCCESS is part of "United Front Work Department" based on a 2016 article on OCAO's website. At which time OCAO was not part of "United Front Work Department", since OCAO came under UFWD in 2018.

3) I pointed out the only OCAO associated office in Canada in 2014 was "Canada Dohua Association" in Toronto. Whereas SUCCESS has been open much longer than 2014.

Aufumy (talk) 06:08, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request:

If the sources have made no mention of S.U.C.C.E.S.S then it best to omit the sentence per WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. We can only state those things that are sufficiently backed with reliable sources. Capitals00 (talk) 00:14, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Overseas Chinese Help Center". Overseas Chinese Affairs Office (in Chinese). April 6, 2016. Archived from the original on May 1, 2017. Retrieved 2019-06-23.

RFC is SUCCESS a Chinese government association?[edit]

I had asked for a 3rd opinion, but the answer seemed neutral. Amigao has one point of view, and I have another point of view, and we each don't seem to want to budge.

This is the current version of Amigao's paragraph;

As of 2015, SUCCESS was listed as an "Overseas Chinese Services Organization" by the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office (OCAO), at the time part of the State Council of the People's Republic of China.[9][10][11] In 2018, OCAO was absorbed by the Chinese Communist Party's United Front Work Department.[11]

My main point is that being mentioned on a foreign government website, does not make you a government organization. Also the Chinese characters used to designate a government office were different than what they listed SUCCESS under. Other countries government websites also list ethnic organizations in Canada, does not make every ethnic organization in Canada a foreign government run entity.

Since Amigao insists on suggesting that SUCCESS is a Chinese government office, with constant references to OCAO and the history of OCAO, and undoes any change, I tried to expand on both our points of view with a new subsection, shown https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=S.U.C.C.E.S.S.&oldid=1148603227#Controversy_of_the_affiliation_of_SUCCESS_to_the_Chinese_government

But Amigao keeps undoing everything, with the current explanation that it is too much of an essay.

My main question is: Is there proof that SUCCESS is a Chinese government office?

Aufumy (talk) 17:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The text in question - "SUCCESS was listed as an "Overseas Chinese Services Organization" by the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office" - does not logically entail that SUCCESS is a government institution. Amigao (talk) 18:07, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

then why list the history of OCAO if it has nothing to do with SUCCESS? Aufumy (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

also my Google translation lists that grouping as "Overseas Chinese help center" Aufumy (talk) 18:16, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even if you reduced the paragraph to that 1 sentence, this sentence/paragraph is part of the History section of SUCCESS.

In the scenario that you don't believe SUCCESS is a Chinese government institution, then how did its mention on the OCAO 2015 website alter the history of SUCCESS? Aufumy (talk) 18:41, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The sentence In 2018, OCAO was absorbed by the Chinese Communist Party's United Front Work Department. seems irrelevant to this article, and the cited source doesn't appear to mention SUCCESS. I suggest removing that sentence. To answer the specific RfC question, I don't see any sources indicating that SUCCESS is a Chinese government office, but I'm open to looking at other sources if anyone provides them. I don't support the version of the article linked in the RfC statement, as that version seems to include original research. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:00, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Initially in mid February I added a disputed inline tag to Amigao's original sentence:

In 2015, SUCCESS was designated an "Overseas Chinese Services Organization" by the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office of the Chinese Communist Party's United Front Work Department.[disputed – discuss]

They would constantly remove my disputed tag. I would also love to know if Amigao has proof if SUCCESS is a Chinese government office. I tried searching myself, but didn't find anything. Amigao has had more than a month to provide evidence.

I now see that Amigao has newly added a quote from the National Post website(ref 9) , as part of the <ref> tag. I wonder that this ...may... be considered some sort of evidence, though it is what National Post is quoting from a China analyst called Schader.

If Amigao truly believes that SUCCESS is a Chinese government office, wouldn't it be better that they came out and stated it in text, rather than stuffing quotes inside of <ref> tags?

That would allow people to analyze Shader's so-called evidence that SUCCESS is designated as an "Overseas Chinese Service Centre" (OCSC).

Amigao then includes another link (ref 11) that assumes, that if SUCCESS is a Chinese government office, then this could be part of Chinese Governments United Front, etc.

=====

If anyone has a link to Schader's work then it would be possible to figure out where his proof is, and what his meaning of OCSC is. Does he mean OCSC is any ethnic organization? Or does he mean OCSC is controlled by the Chinese government?

=====

If it turns out that OCSC just means ethnic organization, then there is no need for inclusion of ref 11 talking about Chinese Governments United Front etc.

If SUCCESS is not part of the Chinese Government, then can anyone tell me how being listed as a help center changed the history of SUCCESS?

=====

One thing Amigao could point out explicitly, instead of leaving around seemingly unrelated references, and quotes inside of references; that there was concern SUCCESS not being vocal about political issues in China, and link that to the National Post article. Aufumy (talk) 19:25, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let me see if I understand what you're saying. The sentence currently in the article is As of 2015, SUCCESS was listed as an "Overseas Chinese Services Organization" by the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office (OCAO), at the time part of the State Council of the People's Republic of China. It sounds like your concerns about this sentence are that (a) the sentence may imply that SUCCESS is a Chinese government office, an implication that isn't stated in any of the sources, and (b) that the Jamestown Foundation source isn't relevant. Have I understood the concerns correctly? I think it would be reasonable to remove the Jamestown Foundation source, because it doesn't seem to mention SUCCESS, and maybe we can clarify the meaning of OCSC to avoid any misunderstandings or misleading implications. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 00:50, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes either remove the Jamestown foundation source, or specify how its relevant.

Dig further into what OCSC means, and the references to OCSC that National Post quoted Schader on.

If Schader's material proves OCSC means being controlled by the Chinese government, then state it explicitly, rather than imply that being listed on a website altered SUCCESS history.

If OCSC is merely a naming convention and does not mean any Chinese government control, then remove the entire sentence completely, as it has no relevance to the history of SUCCESS. Aufumy (talk) 07:19, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. In order to focus discussion on the core issue, I've removed the Jamestown Foundation source – no one has objected to the suggested removal, and removing it seems to be in line with User:Capitals00's 3O comment above too.

As for the issue of whether to mention the OCSC designation – I do think it's relevant that the organization has received recognition from the Chinese government, and this recognition has been noted by at least one secondary source (the National Post source cited in the article). Would it help address your concern if we briefly summarize what OCSC means? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:15, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The National Post offers differing he said, she said points of view.

On one hand is Schader claiming designation, on the other hand SUCCESS denies it was anything substantial.

Ideally, it would be nice to see Schader's report to understand what OCSC refers to, and what evidence backs his point of view. Aufumy (talk) 21:39, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I understand your point. What if we add a sentence, sourced to the National Post, saying something like However, Choo said that this was only a token recognition and that SUCCESS did not deserve it. Would that address your concern? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:24, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Aufumy: Would a sentence along those lines help address your concern? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to address outdated/inaccurate information.[edit]

~~I am an employee of S.U.C.C.E.S.S, proposing updates to the Wikipedia page to address outdated/inaccurate information.~~

The organization celebrates its 50th Anniversary in 2023 and one of our projects is to ensure accurate, updated information about the history of our agency is represented online. Currently, the Wikipedia article about S.U.C.C.E.S.S. contains inaccuracies and lacks important additional details about our programs.

~~So my objective is to contribute accurate and current information while respecting Wikipedia's policies and it's collaborative nature.~~

~~Please review the content below and advise on incorporation into the S.U.C.C.E.S.S. Wikipedia page.~~

~~Thank you,~~

~~Alan~~

~~Content Strategist, S.U.C.C.E.S.S.~~

The United Chinese Community Enrichment Services Society (traditional Chinese: 中僑互助會; simplified Chinese: 中侨互助会; pinyin: Zhōng Qiáo Hùzhù Huì or 中僑/中侨 Zhōng Qiáo)[1] or S.U.C.C.E.S.S., is a Canadian social services organization founded in 1973 and headquartered in Vancouver, British Columbia. [2] Queenie Choo has served as the CEO of the organization since 2012.[3]

HISTORY:

In 1973, S.U.C.C.E.S.S. was founded to provide social services for Chinese, recent immigrants to Vancouver. It was founded by several persons of Hong Kong origin, including Maggie Ip, who became the first chairperson, Jonathan Lau, Linda Leong, Mei-Chan Lin, and Pauline To. S.U.C.C.E.S.S. is a non-partisan, non-profit multicultural Canadian organization with a proud 50 year history of serving newcomers, seniors, youth and families.[7]

Over time, S.U.C.C.E.S.S. clients have become increasingly diverse and S.U.C.C.E.S.S. has evolved into a large multicultural agency. [8] As of 2023, S.U.C.C.E.S.S. serves clients from 150 countries. About 24 per cent come from Mainland China, 23 per cent from Hong Kong, six per cent from Ukraine, 5.5 per cent from India, 5.4 per cent from Taiwan, five per cent from Mexico, 4.6 per cent from Phillipines, 4.4 per cent from Korea, 3.3 per cent from Iran and just over three per cent from Afghanistan. [9]

In the 2022-23 fiscal year, S.U.C.C.E.S.S. served 77,000+ people at one of 40 service centres nationally in Metro Vancouver, Fort St. John and Toronto and internationally in Guangzhou, China and Seoul, South Korea. S.U.C.C.E.S.S. [10]

In 2023, S.U.C.C.E.S.S. celebrated its 50^th Anniversary [11], having grown from a volunteer group of 15 to an agency with more than 1,000 employees.

The vision of S.U.C.C.E.S.S. is a vibrant Canadian society where people thrive and contribute to inclusive communities. The mission of S.U.C.C.E.S.S. is to empower people on their Canadian journey to achieve their goals through services and advocacy that promote belonging, wellness and independence. [12]

S.U.C.C.E.S.S. offers three main streams of services to clients:

Integrated Services for Newcomers include a wide variety of programs and services aimed at helping newcomers, immigrant and refugee clients settle into their new lives in Canada. The programs S.U.C.C.E.S.S. delivers include English language training, employment and entrepreneurship programs, advanced settlement education for newcomers before they arrive and orientation on arrival at the Vancouver airport, counselling and crisis support services, family and community groups, youth career and self-development programs, health education and wellness programs, and diversity, equity and inclusion work. [13]

Affordable Housing services began in 2008 and as of 2023 S.U.C.C.E.S.S. operates and manages more than 900 units across 10 locations in Metro Vancouver in collaboration with BC Housing and municipalities. Recent projects include Riverwalk, which opened in 2021 in South Vancouver’s River District and Dogwood Gardens, which opened in 2023 in Vancouver’s South Cambie neighbourhood. [14]

Multi-Level Care for Seniors services operate three seniors care facilities and three seniors programs in Vancouver and Richmond. This team manages the Simon K. Y. Lee Seniors Care Home in Vancouver’s Chinatown as well as two assisted living residences: Harmony House in Vancouver and Austin Harris Residence in Richmond. S.U.C.C.E.S.S MLC also offers two adult day programs in Vancouver and Richmond, which serve up to 200 seniors each week. In 2022, S.U.C.C.E.S.S. MLC launched an Integrated Community Services for Seniors in Richmond, a pilot project to connect local Chinese seniors to health and community supports to help them live independently at home. [15]

The work of S.U.C.C.E.S.S. is supported in part by S.U.C.C.E.S.S. Foundation, a registered charitable organization established in 2001 that raises funding for S.U.C.C.E.S.S. and its affiliated organizations, supporting S.U.C.C.E.S.S. mandates that focus on strengthening our diverse communities. [16]

S.U.C.C.E.S.S. and S.U.C.C.E.S.S. Foundation are led by CEO Queenie Choo. [17] Once a new immigrant to Canada herself, Queenie Choo has spent a decade leading S.U.C.C.E.S.S. The trained nurse and former Alberta Health Services leader joined S.U.C.C.E.S.S. in 2012. [18]

Choo has been honoured for her community work in B.C. In 2013, she and S.U.C.C.E.S.S. staff were recipients of the Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Medal for contributions to community. [19] In 2018, she was the first Chinese-Canadian woman to receive the title of Honorary Captain of HMCS Vancouver from the Royal Canadian Navy. [20]

In 2022, S.U.C.C.E.S.S. was named Service Provider of the Year by Metropolis Canada [21] and Choo was nominated as a YWCA Woman of Distinction. [22]