Talk:Rugby union positions/Archive 1

Early Discussions

What's the problem with the term out-half? It's by far the most common term used (in Ireland at any rate) for the number 10 position. The official Munsterrugby site even lists O'Gara as an out-half.... http://www.munsterrugby.ie/provincialplayerpage/17119.html

There is a standard set of names for positions as used by the IRB. It was created because different unions use different names for the same position e.g. fly half, outside half, stand-off, first five eights etc, this causes confusion especially amongst those new to the game. I had never heard of the term 'out half' until you used it. I think it's best to use the standard terms on what is an international project ot at least put the standard term in brackets 'out half (fly half)'. Have a look at Rugby union positions to see how confusing it can be. GordyB 12:09, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

http://www.irb.com/Playing/training/Understanding+Rugby.htm lists a number of names for the number 10 position but it's not clear if one is favoured (or more standard) than any other (unless there's another page/document from the IRB that sheds some light on it). Having said that "first five eight" and "fly half" seem to be mentioned more frequently than "out-half". Having the discussion associated with this page (and maybe copying it to the Rugby Positions Article) will provide some useful information for those (like me!) that get confused. Rhd_7

As far as I know there is no IRB document available on the internet that states what their prefered terms are. I can only show you what sources I used to produce that article. The article you linked to was obviously written by a New Zealander as the terms he uses first are Kiwi terms (usually similar to rugby league terminology) see Rugby League positions, the second set are the standard IRB terms. Wikipedia tries to use neutral terms where possible so for example the game known to Americans as 'football' is listed under 'American football' despite the fact that Americans do not use this term themselves where as Association football goes under 'football (soccer)'. In Ireland it is common to refer to Gaelic football as 'football' but that would mislead a non-Irishman. Most Britons would probably guess that out half=outside half (still reasonably common term) but I'm not sure that southern hemisphere types would.GordyB 19:36, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think all the various names for the positions should be used. The names given here have a distinctly Australian feel to them. However I think that the purpose of Wikipedia is to produce an encyclopedic account of the subject matter, even if to my ears or to your ears the names might sound strange, however I shall defer from adding all various the names of positions for a while in case there is some disagreement on this point Dje1232/05/2005]

The names here are not Australian, they are rather closer to British usage. I'd rather keep using the 'standard terms' so as not to confuse people who are new to the sport. Also the position names can be contradictory e.g. an Australian lock is not an English lock.GordyB 12:20, 2 May 2005 (UTC) I've reverted the changes you made because thye fact that flyhalf is called first five eigths in New Zealand and scrumhalf is a halfback is already noted. See paragraphs under 'alternative names' and 'collective terms'. If want to expand this section feel free.GordyB 12:31, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

There aren't enough links to this page especially from player bios. This is probably because of the complexity of linking to specific player positions. I've put the code for links here so that they can be copy / pasted into different rugby union articles.GordyB 22:04, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[[Rugby union positions#1. Loosehead prop & 3. Tighthead prop|prop]]
[[Rugby union positions#2. Hooker|hooker]]
[[Rugby union positions#4. & 5. Lock|lock]]
[[Rugby union positions#6. Blindside flanker & 7. Openside flanker|flanker]]
[[Rugby union positions#8. Number eight|number 8]]
[[Rugby union positions#9. Scrum-half|scrum half]]
[[Rugby union positions#10. Fly-half|fly-half]]
[[Rugby union positions#13. Outside centre & 12. Inside centre|centre]]
[[Rugby union positions#14. and 11. Wing|wing]]
[[Rugby union positions#15. Full back|fullback]]

Number 8 or Eighthman? Or both

As long as I have played rugby I have played 'Eighthman'. Admittedly I was referred to as an 'Eighthman' more when I lived in South Africa, and since immigrating to Australia I have been referred to more commonly as a number 8.

Are there any reasons here why I should not change the name to Eighthman? Can anyone find any evidence that either Number 8 or Eighthman is the official title for the position (since we're keeping it with IRB standards)

Travis

Travsuth (talk) 04:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no official title in Law, but "Number 8" is preferred everywhere except South Africa, and the IRB use "number eight" exclusively in their communications. It would be odd, to say the least, to replace the name used by the vast majority with the one used solely in SA. -- GWO (talk)

Actually, FWIW, the Laws do express a preference: Law 20.1(f) of the U19 variations refers explicitly to the "the Number 8" (their capitalisation). -- GWO (talk)

I think "Number 8" is definitely more widespread; so "changing to 'Eighthman'" would not be appropriate. Certainly needs mentioning though. Perhaps showing where the various position names are used could also be interesting in the article.

BTW. Travis! Normal procedure is that new messages are appended to the end of the list ;-) Greetings to all TINYMARK 07:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

THere is a section at the top that does explain some of the variations as belonging to this-or-that country.GordyB (talk) 10:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Shot guys, Number 8 it is. Sorry about that Mark. Travis Travsuth (talk) 06:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Inside Centre and Outside Centre

I am thinking about merging the two sections on inside centres and outside centres. Most player bios simply say that a particular player was / is a centre without specifying which type of centre. Possibly this is due to players having played both positions. This means that many player bios don't have a link to this article. The two different types of flanker and prop have a merged section and this seems to work well.

The only drawback I can think of is that it will mess up a lot of links. I'll do my best to fix these.

I'm posting this here to give people a chance to agree / object before I start making any dramatic changes.GordyB 11:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Nobody objected but apologies for not waiting longer as I had itchy fingers. Hope I didn't upset anyone.

The old [[Rugby union positions#13. Outside centre|Outside Centre]] and [[Rugby union positions#12. Inside centre|Inside Centre]] links will now not work. If you come across one please replace it with [[Rugby union positions#13. Outside centre & 12. Inside centre|outside centre]] or [[Rugby union positions#13. Outside centre & 12. Inside centre|inside centre]] respectively.GordyB 13:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

i think nowadays the inside the smaller of the two e.g giteau, mauger,etc and the outside the larger, nonu, mortlock, o'driscoll etc

Why are the positions spelt "centre" ? I'm South African, so I know the usual difference between center (middle) and centre (an institution), so I thought center would be more appropriate? Francois Botha (talk) 10:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Centre is British spelling.GordyB (talk) 12:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Lists of notable players

It's getting out of control IMO. Originally I had intended that only the greats would be listed, here were a few current players, but they were only the very top draw. At the moment players are getting added who are simply good. Among others I've deleted links to Steve Borthwick, Harry Ellis and recently an England A player. I just want to get other people's opinions before I embark on a blitz of deleting 'minor' players, especially as my own POV bias may well creep in on who counts as 'minor'.GordyB 23:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Now completed purge. I can't say that I am completely free from bias or that I am a fantastic judge of who is top draw and who is not but something had to be done. Westcoombe Park players getting added is a joke.GordyB 10:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we should cull the notable players from the article completely. --Bob 18:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I know where you are coming from. Perhaps we could delete the lot but add in only players in the IRB hall of fame.GordyB 21:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be better than what is currently there. --Bob 22:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added a note on the rugby union project talk page. If nobody comes up with a better idea then I'll do as I suggested.GordyB 20:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree we should cull players that are not in the International Rugby Hall of Fame (it's not IRB, that one is different I think). We should have a quick vote. Add your comment here, either support Gordy's proposal, oppose changing it, or propose removing all players:

1. Support - Have only Hall of Fame members - Shudda ^talk 21:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support - Have only Hall of Fame members --Bob 21:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I've done my best. I've listed players mostly only by the position that they were most famous for e.g. Campo is listed as a wing but not as a fullback but Lochore is listed once as a number 8 and once as a lock. Inductees that are mostly famous for being coaches e.g. Carwyn James aren't listed and nor is Wavell Wakefield as I'm not sure what position he did play (centre?).GordyB 16:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Wavell Wakefield was a back row forward. In modern parlance, he'd probably be thought of as an open side, but things weren't so clear cut back then, although it might be said that he invented the idea of the modern open side. Oh, and I support the idea of only Hall of Famers making this article. It's too arbitrary and too prone to the present otherwise. -- GWO

Is J Wilkinson not in the No10 hall of fame yet then? Seems like a harsh judgement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.44.131 (talk) 00:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It's for retired players only. -- GWO (talk) 07:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

A Complete lack of English players listed which is shocking (and I'm guessing Anti-Englishness is present here). Where's Brian Moore, Martin Johnson, Johnny Wilkinson etc.....?

The players listed here are in the IRB hall of fame and so there is no anti-Englishness on the part of editors of this article. Though it is quite shocking how few Englishmen are in the IRB hall, barely more than Argentina has. Whilst Moore and Johnson ought to be in IMO (Jonno probably will get in but Moore is too divisive a figure), Wilkinson isn't retired yet (see above).GordyB (talk) 22:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

The International Hall has no relation whatsoever to the IRB—the IRB has had its own Hall of Fame since 2006. The IRB Hall has so far been more exclusive than the International Hall, and in one year (2009), inductees were restricted to Lions and Springboks (as the Lions were touring South Africa that year). Another HUGE difference between the two halls is that the IRB Hall has inducted more individuals from the earliest days of the sport (i.e., the 19th and early 20th centuries). That having been said, I think individuals who are in the IRB Hall should also be noted, especially since there are some individuals who are in the IRB Hall but not the International Hall. I've been regularly noting which individuals are in the IRB Hall. — Dale Arnett (talk) 17:29, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Is the International Rugby Hall of Fame even inducting anyone new? It seems to be stuck at 2009. No objection to adding Players from the IRB one though. AIRcorn (talk) 00:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Who provides the power in the scrum?

Just read the Prop and Lock sections of this article, and noticed that in both sections it is stated that the respective positions being described are responsible for providing the power in the scrum. Any chance of clarification please? Puchu 04:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The answer's "both". I've amended the article to reflect this. -- GWO

Thanks for that mate Puchu 09:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Fullback vs Full Back

The fullback subtitle has been changed from Rugby union positions#15. Full back to Rugby union positions#15. Fullback. That's broken many of the existing links from the biographys. Should this be reverted or can we think of a better way to do this? Saint-djc 15:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

We could use the templates found in Category:Rugby_union_position_templates. This way, if ever there is a change in the article, or if individual articles are ever made, it will be easier to change a few templates rather than hundreds of articles. --Bob 19:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Section names

There have been some recent changes to the article where section headings have been altered. Although additions and alterations to the article are great, section headings shouldn't be changed without consultation here. The reason is that there are lots of wiki-links to the sections for the different positions. So if the section names are changed the links go dead! So please please resist changing the section names, and if you see a name has been changed without a consensus having been reached here please revert it. Thanks. - Shudda ^talk 08:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Changing "scrum half" to "half back" actually introduces extra ambiguity. Half the world may say "Half back" to mean #9, but the other half uses "Half back" to mean either #9 or #10. At least "scrum half" only has one meaning, even if its not commonly used in the SH (and it used in South Africa See http://www.sarfu.org.za/default.asp?cId=7534&print=yes for example) -- GWO

It is also the term preferred by the IRB who are the international governing body. Why would using terms specific to one hemisphere or another be an improvement?GordyB 16:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

7 0n 7 women's rugby

13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)~jigsMy granddaughter is involved in 7 0n 7...How does this game differ from the one described on your site? jigs(66.186.79.11 13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC))

See rugby sevens.GordyB 13:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Number 8 section

The section for Number 8 seems very biased. Is Lions the only team to currently have good Number 8s? TinyMark 19:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Blindside and Openside Flanker Issue

I noticed that the article was far too long, and shortened it summarising to a level similar of the other positions. My wording is a bit arkward in places though, so feel free to edit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.28.12 (talk • contribs)

It did need to be shortened, but rather then lose all that information I split it off into a new article titled Flanker (rugby union). The article is prob of adequate length to justify this. I would also appreciate some help in expanding it some more. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 03:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Utility back?

I realized that there's one concept missing from the "Backs" section... the utility back.

A number of backs, even at international level, are capable of playing multiple positions in the backline. For example:

• Chris Paterson has double-digit cap totals at wing, fullback, and fly-half.
• Mike Catt was capped for England at every position in the backline except scrum-half and outside centre, and he has played the latter position at club level.
• François Steyn is only 21, but has already played for the Springboks at wing, fullback, fly-half, and centre.

IMHO, I believe there should either be a subsection of the "Backs" section discussing utility backs, or even an actual article. It might be hard to give examples, however, given the policy of listing only IRHOF members at the end of each section (a good one, I believe).

Comments? — Dale Arnett (talk) 06:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

8-man

The Number 8, as far as I know, can also be referred to as 8-man, as I have heard it called almost exclusivley that term. Should'nt that be added into the Number 8 section?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.110.198.70 (talk) 23:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it is already noted earlier in the article.GordyB (talk) 18:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

oh. well i'll be darned. 76.110.198.70 (talk) 02:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Second row and Scottish terminology

I note that this article uses "lock" throughout. This is a term we never used at all. It should be made more clear that this is the same as second row throughout the relevant sections.

Also worth pointing out that Scottish rugby has traditionally used slightly different names. TV's muddied the waters of course. --MacRusgail (talk) 16:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The names used in the article are IRB standard names and generally more in keeping with Northern Hemisphere terminology. I don't think that there is any real difference between Scottish terminology and English terminology and only minor variations with Welsh and Irish.

The problem with pointing out all the different varients in the individual section is that some of the positions have a great deal of different namess, particularly the flyhalf and this would be very complicated.

There is a section at the top where differences in usage are discussed.GordyB (talk) 17:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

As might be expected, the English terminology is coming to predominate here, but certainly there are several positions which are known by non-standard names here, e.g. half-back for scrum half. I actually get confused as to which terms are Scottish and which English now!

Know nothing about the Welsh and Irish terminology (in English), however, it might be of interest that there is an ongoing project to translate rugby terms into Scottish Gaelic just now. BBC Alba shows a lot more Scottish rugby than the Beeb and STV do (with subtitles). I think they've done so by borrowing from Irish, plus a few shinty terms... The multilingual list is fascinating (I hope it is retained in the article)--MacRusgail (talk) 21:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Irish Language Terms

I find the inclusion of the Irish equivalents for various positions a bit "me too". Are these words actually used, or just added by an enthusiastic translator (nothing wrong with them btw). I'm wary of deleting the column because they may well be employed at rugby playing coláistí, but I'm dubious. Stanstaple (talk) 18:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if the case is the same with Ireland, but the match programmes for Wales home games print the position names in both English and Welsh. If the situation is the same for Ireland matches, we may have our answer. Of course, that's not the only method of confirming the translations. Does the IRFU site have a Gaelic version? – PeeJay 21:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

No sign of an Irish version of the IRFU website. I've never bought or read a rugby match programme, either provincial or international, but you may well be right about that. I'll see if I can check that out. Stanstaple (talk) 19:57, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I just googled "Leath-chlibirt" and the only hits were mirrors of this article. Is there justification for including the apparently unused Irish translation of rugby positions? Stanstaple (talk) 20:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)