Talk:Radomír Vašek

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"known professionally as"[edit]

Citing two websites which clearly don't use diacritics anywhere (and one even says he played in a championship in "Pilzen", which is neither Plzeň nor Pilsen but the German word for mushrooms), is not a reliable source for "how he is professionally named". This is not his pseudonym, it's just the result of these websites not using diacritics. Next we'll be adding "Valašské Meziříčí, known within tennis as Valasske Mezirici" for the same reason. - filelake shoe 19:40, 4 April 2012 (UTC) I have requested page move protection. We should use this page to discuss the merits of both proposed titles before making any future changes. Cloudz 679 21:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One thing. I have no prob at all in asking for outside assistance, that can certainly help, but to phrase it "users are move-warring" was a bit strong. It was moved and I moved it back. Not sure what constitutes a "war" but I would have said that didn't qualify. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple page moves at the same article without consensus or discussion at the talk page. This is a good opportunity to come to an agreement. Cloudz 679 14:04, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Per Cloudz679's request I have move protected the page. I set the protection length to indefinite so when the discussion about the title has reached consensus either ping me to unprotect it or request unprotection at WP:RFUP. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 21:53, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that it was left at Radomír Vašek for the page protection. By the way, the ITF does use diacritics in some city names... but not player names. It is the governing body of tennis and all players must register (and forever play under) an anglicized name with no diacritics, or they don't play tennis. Probably since the 1920s when the bylaws demanded English only for everything tennis. The ATP and ITF aren't the only English sources available... we have Australian Open, Tennis Insight, Tennis Live UK, NY Times, Sports Illustrated, UK Independent, Seattle Times, and on and on. Even a Czech Republic paper The Prague Post. The article should be under the common English name and then, following wiki biographies, the first line could say Radomír Vašek (known professionally as Radomir Vasek)... with the term Vasek used throughout the article. Novak Djokovic doesn't even have that much. He decided to register with the Dj in his last name... his choice as opposed to registering it under Dokovic. These players are listed here for notability for one reason only.... they play and excel at tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The page should remain at Radomír Vašek for the reasons discussed above and here and here. If the phrase "known professionally as" is included, it should be reformulated as "known professionally in sources that do not use diacritics as". Doremo (talk) 04:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fyunck. Stop it, please. No one supports you with this "known professionally as" idea, it is based on a misreading of WP:STAGENAME and should stop. There are now around 40 BLPs with this phrase in it simply because of WP:TENNISNAMES#IPIN_registration, and yet I'm sure the BBC and ESPN would be pronouncing the name correctly "Vashek" not "Vassek" - if of course he was still playing 40 years later rather than in fact now being a coach in Czech Republic, not a player anyway. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:37, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. You have been a major disruptor here at tennis. You need to stop now. Alternate names and spellings must be included. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fyunck. We still don't know where you got the idea that a diacritic-stripping is an "alternate name"? And as for this comment above, how exactly does someone asking you - as the only person who thinks "Á known in tennis as A" makes sense in a 104x BLP ledes - to lay off, make someone "a major disruptor here at tennis"? See WP:OWNER. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:58, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me there are three or four editors here expressing that diacritics are an integral part of this man's name and this is the basis upon which to form the title, while on the other hand one user is claiming IPIN as a basis for the article's location at Wikipedia. I don't feel IPIN "changes" how these people are known, and that "Vasek" is a spelling of convenience, similar to the opinion of Doremo at Talk:Antonio Sancic. Here at Wikipedia we have the technology to use the full name and redirect from versions stripped of diacritics (if you wrote it on a standard US/British keyboard). Let's use it. As I have already written elsewhere, the English alphabet article tells the reader of diacritics that "Words that are still perceived as foreign tend to retain them". I am absolutely sure that Czech, surnames are perceived as foreign to English speakers. Ideally all names for Wikipedia articles would be spelled in latin-based alphabets with relevant redirects in the case where people search for these terms without diacritics. Cloudz 679 14:04, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These player register with the ITF without diacritics and it becomes their defacto name in all things tennis related. English press spells the names in the English alphabet as does Encyclopedia Britannica on some of them. And they are only here at wikipedia because of their tennis prowess. There can be reasons on both sides of the debate for where to place an article title but there is no debate that these players are known by their English alphabetic spelling in the English world and that alternate spelling must be maintained in the article to let our readers know. Americans aren't even taught in school what these symbols are. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So what you're saying is EB is undecided, but Wikipedia should strip diacritics because of the American education system, and because the ITF registration process strips them too. I'm not convinced. Cloudz 679 20:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki has been split on the issue of English alphabet/Foreign alphabet since its inception. There are multiple arguments going on right now as I write this. But remember what this particular talk section is all about. Not about diacritics in general. Editors can argue till they're blue in the face and not convince the other side. But the fact remains that the English press, encyclopeias, the ITF, ATP, Wimbledon, US Open, Davis Cup, etc... all use the non-diacritic versions. Those names are what we use in standard English so they do exist even if the article title remains at a diacritic version. What this section is about is do we follow wiki policy/guidelines that tell us to add all alternate versions of a name to the first sentence to let readers know that this person has a pseudonym in tennis. It seems like an easy call and to ignore that fact is a disservice and wrong. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:14, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If that was true in years past, consensus can change, and Wikipedia does not appear to be "split" by any meaningful definition about BLP names any longer. There are multiple arguments going on right now as you write this, and you are at the centre of all of them, as the only person pushing the "Á known professionally as A" insert. See WT:BLP for a suggested clarification to WP:BLP which will fix this. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:58, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow are you wrong there. But of course with your removal and attack of all English names in tennis articles you are the cause of all the strife. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:47, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Radomír Vašek doesn't have an English name. He is Czech... There are plenty of articles about non-Anglophones who don't have any mention of their stripped name in their articles (I'm not linking them here) and there doesn't seem to be any problem. Propose closing this discussion in favour of the original name with the "Radomir Vasek" title continuing as a redirect to this page. Cloudz 679 11:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fyunck, what will it take to please stop this? Jevansen (page creator) created this under correct name without "professionally known as" insert, and Mewulwe, Filelakeshoe, myself, Cloudz679, Doremo have asked you not to do this. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:14, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have explained what it will take multiple times. What will it take for you to compromise on one single thing? I've seen nothing from you at all. Zip! Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:20, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I and it seems and the dozens of others who have asked you to stop inserting these lines have allowed you to have your way against use of Gaj's Latin alphabet for Serbian BLPs. Apart from that most of what you want to do to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons is evidently counter consensus by a very wide margin. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:38, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]