Talk:Psalm 24

A fact from Psalm 24 appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 December 2018 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that "Lift up your heads, O ye gates" from David's Psalm 24 has been paraphrased in Advent songs such as "Macht hoch die Tür", and was set in Handel's Messiah to represent the Ascension?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2018/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Psalm 24.

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French to English Translation Needed[edit]

For a footnote in the "Catholic" section.Alephb (talk) 15:20, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Vulgate[edit]

Apart from the fact that I was rather surprised to see that my edit which changed Vulgate to the Vulgate (with definite article) was reverted ([1]), I am more concerned with an inaccuracy in the lead. Specifically, we currently have "In the Greek Septuagint version of the bible, and in its Latin translation Vulgate, this psalm is Psalm 23 in a slightly different numbering system." Although Jerome first used the Greek Hexapla Septuagint as the textual basis for his translation of the Psalms, the Vulgate is not a simple translation of LXX as Jerome translated all the other books of the Hebrew Bible from the Hebrew (apart from the small sections in Aramaic). Jerome's later Hebrew Psalter used pre-Masoretic Hebrew manuscripts for the Psalms as the textual basis. I would suggest a change to "In both the Greek Septuagint version of the bible and the Latin Vulgate, this psalm is Psalm 23 in a slightly different numbering system." Greenshed (talk) 18:28, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Count me as equally confused as to what's wrong with "the Vulgate". User:Gerda Arendt, I'll admit I'm a little puzzled here. Was it something to do with the non-breaking space Greenshed put in? Alephb (talk) 02:09, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I tried to correct "The Vulgate", and missed "the". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:04, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Greenshed: your suggestions are valid, but I think you should first gain consensus and finalize the changes you want on the talk page, because they will be applied to all the leads of all the Psalm pages. (I noticed you're still making changes to the lead.) Yoninah (talk) 21:40, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if we're going to try and build consensus first, count me in favor of not referring to the Vulgate as a translation of the Septuagint. It's true that most manuscripts of the Vulgate have a text of Psalms that is derived from the Septuagint, but the Vulgate in general is not a translation of the Septuagint. We could go into a more nuanced description, but that strikes me as probably unnecessary given that the article is about the individual Psalms and not about the Vulgate. Alephb (talk) 23:52, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah. With respect, it is not the policy that edits can only be made after consensus has been established. The WP would develop very slowly indeed in such a case! My edit which removed the description of the Vulgate as a translation of the Septuagint ([2]) was the first time I had made any edit to that effect. If you feel strongly that my edit was wrong or unhelpful then you can, of course, revert it and discussion may follow (see Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle) and I, of course, abjure edit warring. Being the editor who started this thread, I hope you can see that I am always open to discussion whether others revert me or not. Greenshed (talk) 10:28, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I agree with Alephb's remarks above. Jerome is noted for preferring the "Hebrew verity" over the "Greek interpretation." Greenshed (talk) 10:28, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Greenshed: I have no problem with your edits; they seem to be on-target. I was just saying that since your change will globally affect all Psalm pages, you should decide on a final version before Gerda Arendt starts changing all the other Psalm pages, which she already has. Yoninah (talk) 12:58, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let's discuss[edit]

"In the Greek Septuagint version of the bible and the Latin Vulgate, this psalm is Psalm 23 in a slightly different numbering system."

I think this shows too little that the Vulgate is also a bible version, and we have to write for readers who don't know, not forcing them to open the link. Wording? Suggestion:

ALT1: In other versions of the bible, such as the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate, this psalm is Psalm 23 in a slightly different numbering system. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I like ALT1. Quibble: I'd capitalize "Bible". I commend you, Gerda, on working to establish a single style for Psalm article introductions. Alephb (talk) 22:08, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support ALT1.1 "In other versions of the Bible, such as the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate, this psalm is Psalm 23 in a slightly different numbering system." Greenshed (talk) 19:03, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]