Talk:Prince Ernst of Hohenberg

Prince and von

(Copy and paste of material at Princess Sophie of Hohenberg's page, but still relevant) This is just sloppy... Google shows 187 results for Princ Ernst von Hohenburg, many of them from Wiki mirrors perpertuating the error, the rest not even included after less than 30 results as they are almost all the same. This should only stand so long as his mother is put at Sophie, Duchess von Hohenberg. Charles 18:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Wiki style says to refer to somebody by the name most frequently used for that person in English-language works. Ernst is most frequently referred to as "Prince Ernst von Hohenberg" (the ONLY uses of "Prince Ernst of Hohenberg" seem to be from a former version of the Wiki page).

Sophie is most frequently referred to in English-language works as "Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg".

Wikipedia is NOT about changing usage. It is an encyclopedia which gathers scholarship from other sources. Noel S McFerran 18:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Ernst hardly appears in any works and if he does, like other German nobles, it tends to be recycled and sloppy titling. There are about 2/3 the number of results for Google calling her Sophie Duchess von Hohenberg as there are titling her Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg. Obviously the latter is correct. Her children should match her. Charles 19:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Wiki style does NOT say that there should be consistency in the naming of members of the same family. The two eldest sons of "Karl I of Austria" have articles entitled "Otto von Habsburg" and "Robert, Archduke of Austria-Este". Wiki style says that each individual should be referred to by the form of name most commonly used for that person in English-language works.

I agree with Charles that it should be "Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg" since that is the most frequently used form of name in English-language works. I also maintain that Wiki style requires "Prince Ernst von Hohenberg" - for exactly the same reason.

Charles thinks that this is "horrible". I don't entirely disagree with him - but it is Wiki. Charles doesn't translate the VON in his own name to OF - but he seems to think that it should be translated in other people's names just because one of their ancestors was made a count (or prince). Noel S McFerran 19:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not a prince or a duke, that is why I don't translated the von in my own surname... If I was, then yes, I would. It is proper format. Btw, your own website, for the Jacobite "royal family", which I have read from time to time, has references to counts and barons or this and that. The Royal Family throughout the Year, see January 18, January 22, February 7, March 13, March 22, April 8, April 26, May 29, May 30, June 5, July 11, July 30, August 9, September 11, September 21, Spetember 25, October 14, October 23, November 7, November 21, November 22, November 28, December 7 and December 22. All examples show "of" used for barons, counts and princes (who are of ducal houses with dukes being "of" or are princes with comital agnates using "of".) Charles 20:18, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't use Wiki style on my website. Wikipedia does use Wiki style.

I'm not saying that translating "Graf Karl von Hamm" (e.g.) to "Count Charles of Hamm" is necessarily wrong per se. I am saying that it's not Wiki to translate names - unless that's the way things are normally done in English-language references to that person.

How many times do I have to say this about WIKI style? Noel S McFerran 20:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

What are you trying to reflect on your website though? You do post what you believe is factually correct. Wiki should be just the same. I can guarantee that almost no one has heard of this man or his siblings. Therefore they should be presented with "of Hohenberg", which is what their mother used. "Wiki style" is pretty irrelevant and even sloppy in this case.

This appears to be the fundamental source of the problem: You disagree with Wiki style whenever it calls for leaving particules untranslated in noble titles, you feel that it is appropriate to change it unilaterally, and you are proceeding to do so, here and in a number of other articles. Judging from the comments and history on your user page, this is beginning to be noticed and is increasingly disapproved of. Lethiere

This has shaky wikipedia precedent, if any, as the prince is the agnate of a duchess who is at "duchess of Hohenberg". Most of my changes are to bring things into consistency were precedent existed prior. When I made the move, I moved the page from a simple "Ernst von Hohenberg" to "Prince Ernst of Hohenberg", to note the title that this man had. Charles 04:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

As an alternative, why not build your case for changing Wiki style at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) in the ongoing discussion of German nobility? You might find that most agree with you already or that some can be persuaded by a coherent argument (including those who object to unilateral re-naming in defiance of Wiki convention, but not to changing the convention prior to re-naming).

Yes, I could do so, and I shall when I have more time. If you notice now, I take more time when considering changes and have now taken to discussion of such things. Charles 04:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

For the record, some of us do track Archduke Franz Ferdinand's descendants: I visited his and Sophie's tomb at Schloss Artstetten a few years ago. And at present I agree with Noel McFerran that their descendants' articles should include the English version of their titles with the particule in German. Lethiere 03:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I do realize that as I do track obscure royals and nobles as well so I am not in a totally different boat. But I must digress, you must note the Sophie is at "of Hohenberg" while her children are at "von". Charles 05:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

That makes perfect sense IF one observes the Wiki-convention of calling people by the name most commonly used for them in English-language works. There are lots of examples of members of the same family having different names in Wiki. Martin Sheen is called by his stage name (as opposed to his legal name Ramón Gerard Antonio Estévez). One of his sons has an article under Charlie Sheen (again his stage name, not his legal name). But the other sons all have Wiki articles under their legal name Estevez.

I draw a line between stage names and analagous territorial designations of royals and nobles as it makes sense to do so. Charles 05:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Sophie is commonly known in English as "the Duchess of Hohenberg" (i.e. with the title translated). The same cannot be said for her children. Noel S McFerran 05:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

True, because almost no one has heard of her children and when they have, it is usually via means that perpetuate this inconsistency. Charles 05:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

If it was a matter of Otto von Bismarck and "Otto Prince of Bismarck", then yes, it matters, because people have at least heard of that dead guy before. References to the Hohenberg children are few and far in between (indeed, what I have seen even mentions "the Archduchess Sophie"). It appears that most of them though tend to be made by people who hear one thing and misconstrue as another or perpetuate others' sloppiness. Charles 20:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Title of article

On February 21, without any discussion, the name of this page was changed from "Ernst von Hohenberg" to "Prince Ernst of Hohenberg". There are certainly arguments to be made for such a change (and for similar changes for the other members of Ernst's family), but there are equally arguments to be made against such a move.

The fundamental issue is what is the most commonly used form of name for this individual in English-language works. A Google search only finds six uses of "Ernst of Hohenberg" (other than Wikipedia). This compares with over a hundred English-language webpages which use "Ernst von Hohenberg".

If one wants "accuracy" then some people might say that one should follow the laws of the Austrian Republic where he was only "Ernst Hohenberg". That was his legal name in Austria (where he lived) for the majority of his life.

I suggest that the page be renamed "Prince Ernst von Hohenberg". Noel S McFerran 03:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I was not notified of any discussion on this page. "Prince --- von" is horrible form. Rather than suggesting a move, it looks like you went ahead and did it yourself, or had someone else do it. No further discussion. Charles 18:05, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

YOU changed the page without any discussion on February 21. I initiated a discussion on March 3. Nobody objected to my proposal. I therefore made the change on March 11. On March 11 I also wrote directely to you asking you to stop changing names contrary to Wiki style.

There are dozens and dozens of English-language sources which do not hesitate to refer to a noble from a German-speaking country as Prince/Count VON Something. This IS English-language usage for many many nobles. If you want to change this practice, then write a book about it. Wikipedia is not the place to try to change the way things are. Noel S McFerran 18:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Wife's Nationality?

It would be helpful if someone could indicate Marie-Therese Wood's family or national origins, as while her double-barreled Christian name suggests a French variant of Maria Theresa, her surname appears English. (An irony considering her father-in-law's death sparked a war which drew France, Britain and America into action against Austria-Hungary.)

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