Talk:Pileus (hat)

Albanian connection?

Is there any connection with the Albanian plis? HairyDan 21:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is very safe to connect the albanian plis with the roman pileus. It should say something about this in the article. --Durim Durimi (talk) 22:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Good call! How's that for a start?--Wetman (talk) 00:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact that the Albanian plis is still today used by many Albanians while it is unknown for a common Greek is not a coincidence. Thus, I don't understand why Albanian heritage should be ignored. Not everything ancient in the Balkans is Greek. Arben Kita —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.73.199.89 (talk) 11:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

No, it only means that the Greeks got westernised and abandoned their traditional clothings. Don't judge with your strictly nationalistic POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.58.136.63 (talk) 15:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The meaning of qeleshe.

As it says in the article. The freed slaves got their heads shaved before they put on the plis/qeleshe. My understanding of the word qeleshe is a a mixture between the albanian word for bald and the albanian word for wool. Qel meaning bald and lesh meaning wool.

I know for a fact that some albanians always shaved their heads, these albanians also wore the pileus/qeleshe as seen in the pictures below.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=401647824663678278&ei=7D8qSrCsGZzQ2wLaqf2vCQ&q=albania&emb=1

--Durim Durimi (talk) 20:08, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Why should the part of the albanian heritage be left out of this article?

It would be a shame if an article about the pileus didnt mention its only modern day remnant.

Leaving out the albanian part is a big mistake. What do you think?--Durim Durimi (talk) 20:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Pileus vs Phrygian cap

Phrygian cap indicates that the two are different things but the articles on Pileus indicates they are two names for the same thing. We should be consistent. -- Beardo (talk) 04:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Check this one out, to bad is just in Romanian: http://daco-getica.blogspot.com/2011/01/boneta-frigiana-scitica-persana-vs.html --Codrin.B (talk) 01:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

liberty cap

is it a coincidence that Illyrian in albanian is The free people .. Illyria is to be free in albanian? with this in mind, the plis is a simble of liberty, "liberty cap" as mentioned in the article. so connecting the two, illyrian cap in albanian means liberty cap. coincidence or not, the two go together real good even when adding modern day albanian language, and the fact that albanians still use the plis today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.247.98 (talk) 10:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Pilleus & plis

I still fail to see a connection of those two. Stipcevic states "It is generally agreed, and rightly so, that the modern Albanian cap originates directly from the similar cap worn by the Illyrians." and this proves nothing; obviously the ancient Pileus, a conical hat is something diferrent from what Stipcevic describes.Alexikoua (talk) 20:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

By checking the full quote Stipcevic states that "the modern Albanian cap" isn't a conical one. "It is generally agreed, and rightly so, that the modern Albanian cap originates directly from the similar cap worn by the Illyrians. Another type of cap is a conical leather one, resembling the modern fur cap or subara." I assume this part should be moved to the correct article (subara).Alexikoua (talk) 21:10, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I am not an expert on the matter, but I see no problem with that, given the source. You can also add also that quote to it if need arises. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 22:18, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi there @Alexikoua. I'm a bit confused as to what you're suggesting. As you highlighted in bold, another type of cap is a conical leather one. Inferred by 'another', a different cap than that worn by Albanians resembles the modern fur cap or subara. In addition, the Šubara is a Serbian cap - I'm not sure what good would be done, therefore, if such an addition were made to that article. If you could elaborate slightly, then I'm sure we could come to an agreement. ArbDardh (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2019 (UTC)ArbDardh

I'm simply saying that according to Stipcevic the plis hat is not a conical one like the Pileus (plis is not conical according to available images of the specific type). Stipcevic doesnt even mention the word pileus at all. Obviously Stipcevic refers to a different (non conical) hat. However this part may stay at the Illyrians paragraph.Alexikoua (talk) 09:28, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I still fail to see something about Illyria in refs 1 and 2. However, I've added Etruria based on #1.Alexikoua (talk) 10:26, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Having reviewed your recent edits, I am happy to leave the page how it is now. I seem to have not read the part about Illyria well enough in reference 1 (i.e. inconveniently confused myself). ArbDardh (talk) 11:35, 1 August 2019 (UTC)ArbDardh

Obviously Stipjeciv falls into OUTDATED and he is the only source of this connection.Alexikoua (talk) 22:40, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I do not think that we should care with the unsettled question of the origin of the plis that Albanians wear. This article is about the term Pileus, whose Albanian form is called plis, and the Albanians wear it. As well as a Pannonian Plis, and the Greek Pilos are part of the term "pileus" and menton in the article, the Albanian Plis must be also part of the Article, a photo would be the least, for the beginning.--213.55.225.104 (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Earliest preserved specimen of Pannonian cap

In order to avoid any misunderstanding, i should clarify that the reason i wrote "2nd or 3rd century AD", is because, even though page 218 does indeed mention the date 100-120 AD for the MC 922 specimen, the relevant image on page 220 has a caption that says "second-third century AD". Since the latter period (101-300) includes the former (100-120), i went with it and also made a reference to page 220. In any case, i just searched for another source and it appears that 100-120 AD is indeed the correct one; read paragraph 21. Demetrios1993 (talk) 09:06, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Scope of article

By the way there is not a single reference claiming that this was an Illyrian hat. The best we can have is from Stipcevic (1976) in reference to the Albanian plis as... "a similar cap worn by the Illyrians.".Alexikoua (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

The name pileus was used to describe a brimless felt cap, regardless of their shape, and the Albanian plisa/qeleshe are brimless felt caps, conical (like those of the Apulian vase paintings and of Daunian stelae), cilindrical flat-topped (like the Pannonian ones), oval (like those worn by Dioscuri) and hemispherical (like those depicted on Roman coins). You did not provide reasonable arguments to remove sourced information from this article. – Βατο (talk) 20:47, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Your statement needs to be supported by a decent reference. Being worn by Illyrians is still without reference. It's certain that Illyrians wore hats, but the pileus was not among them. You need to stop adding wp:OR parts here and there. Alexikoua (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

The relevant sources and quotes are inline, they can be easly checked. but the pileus was not among them is your original research which contrasts with RS. – Βατο (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

There is not a single reference that supports the statement that this was worn in Illyia. Care to find one?Alexikoua (talk) 13:38, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

This source was already inline: Rocco, Marco (2012). L'esercito romano tardoantico: persistenze e cesure dai Severi a Teodosio I. Studi e progetti: scienze umanistiche. Libreria Universitaria. p. 557. ISBN 9788862922302. Soprattutto durante il periodo degli imperatori-soldati prevalgono nettamente gli influssi delle province illiriche, che si esplicano nell'ampia diffusione del pilleus pannonico... Stop disruptive edits, please. – Βατο (talk) 14:27, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Your rewording: A possibly Illyrian is depicted wearing a pileus has been hesitantly identified on a Roman frieze from Tilurium in Dalmatia; the monument could be part of a trophy base erected by the Romans after the Great Illyrian Revolt (6–9 BCE). is incorrect. Do you at least read what you write? I restored the rewording made by Demetrios, with the hypothetical link reflected by "hesitantly". – Βατο (talk) 14:43, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Stop pretending disruption please. You understand that you promote wp:SYNTH in an extreme way here. 'Illyrico' is accompanied with a '?' sign... the author isn't certain if this artistic depiction is about an Illyrian. Alexikoua (talk) 23:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

1972 reference

Βατο, the entry from the dictionary De re vestiaria libellus, ex Bayfio excerptus by Charles Estienne and Lazare de Baïf, describes a different hat that the 1972 reference mentions as cibaria; it is actually rendered incorrectly, because the original text says cyrbasia (see here), referring to the Persian headgear kyrbasia. In short, the kyrbasia of antiquity is described as an Albanian-looking hat (as it was observed in the 16th century), or a high felt cap in the form of a cone (pileus altus in speciem coni eductus). A translation should be included per MOS:FOREIGNQUOTE. By the way, aside of kyrbasia, a number of other hats are also being described as pilei – including petasos – which shows that in this context the word is simply used to describe a cap or a felt cap, and can thus be translated as such. Demetrios1993 (talk) 08:08, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Demetrios, thank you for the clarification. Regardless of the Persian hat and of the incorrect spelling cibalia instead of cyrbasia by the 1972 reference, the dictionary mentions the entry cyrbasia as "an Albanian hat" (chappeau dalbanoix) and as a "tall pileus [hat] drawn out in the shape of a cone" (pileus altus in speciem coni eductus). It maybe can be reworded better, but I think the current content The 1542 Latin dictionary BAYFIO <<De re vestiaria>> describes an Albanian hat as pileus altus in speciem coni eductus is in agreement with the sources. However feel free to reword it keeping the relevant information. Yes, the word pileus was generally used to describe a felt hat, and I think brimless felt hats in particular. – Βατο (talk) 09:21, 4 May 2022 (UTC)