Talk:Peter Wyngarde/Archive 1

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 01:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Weasel Cottaging words

I'm not happy with the current sentence: This conviction, which today would have counted for little, ruined his career. I have no doubt it ruined his career, but its the which today would have counted for little which concerns me. Firstly, how do we know what he was caught doing; Secondly do we know where he was doing it; and thirdly, have we then had a legal view as to what he would have been convicted, if anything, today? I doubt it, so I'd like to remove those weasel words. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 18:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You know you a right to remove it. It happened George Michael, but so what? We do not know that this actually "ruined" Wyngarde's career. Lots of famous actors fall out of favour naturally and shift to small stage careers - maybe this would have happened to Wyngarde too. Format (talk) 19:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I know - but the members of the wiki LGBT project team are quite a studious and nice bunch, and have particularly views on certain issues. As he's a prominent gay actor (one of the early one's to come out openly in the UK), I thought I would tag it rather than take their wrath! If this note stays here long enough without any further debate, I'll remove the offending words. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 01:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Impactful?

WTF??? Isn't this page supposed to be in English?

Actually, it can be found in the unabridged Webster's, supported by the quote "some of the most impactful heroines of current films". So this movie usage is apt, but you can change it to "with impact" if you prefer.GBS2 (talk) 20:05, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

In other media

The several references to parodies of Jason King should be moved to the relevant section on the page for that character - perhaps other references also. Harry The Bustard (talk) 12:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

"When Sex Rears Its Inquisitive Head" the LP - lack of humour?

" That the LP seems to have been recorded without a hint of humour or irony makes it that bit stranger." Having purchased a re-release of the album on CD, i can quite safely say that to claim the album was recorded without the slightest hint of humour or irony seems quite safely, and utterly, incorrect. The whole album can be construed as a joke, (as numerous record labels had vied to get him to release an album of some kind, as i understand, without the faintest question of whether he was any good at singing. He only agreed to write the album, in the end, having been promised COMPLETE creative license.) Furthermore, i recall reading a quote of Peter's, where he basically describes the album as him, pretending to be His character, (the austin powers esque Jason King) being the real Peter Wynguard. It is an odd little collection of music, but in my opinion, not just funny, but irrepressably tongue in cheek. Given a little time and a little attention, i could probably find quite a few sources to expand this section, as i'm sure i've read a lot about it somewhere. Mister cope 10:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Lyrics can be found at http://members.optusnet.com.au/~waynedavidson/jkmusiclyrics.htm#comein but it should be listened to to get the "tongue-in-cheek" aspect! Manxwoman (talk) 16:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Gross Indecency prosecution

I have just done a search on the Digital Archive of The Times for Peter Wyngard and while I have found an article about him being conned out of £3000 by his former secretary, Jeremy Dallas-Cope, and a male model and Anthony O'Donoghue,I can find no mention of Peter Wyngard being arrested for an act of Gross indecency. I'm not saying it didn't happen; I'm not old enough to remember. But is there a reliable source for this information other than the IMDB, or Wikipedia or any other site that might have copied the information from one or other of those sources. Jooler 20:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

There are plenty of pages that seem to talk about this, but many seem vaguely wiki-esque. This fellow is recalling the events from the actual time, which given the prevalence on other sites of stuff that probably came from wikipedia, makes it a little more reliable, perhaps? http://trevormiller.blogspot.com/2005/02/long-live-jason-king.html Mister cope 22:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid it definitely did happen, I have the EVENING STANDARD from December 1975 that told the whole story.Dolmance 16:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

He claimed to have slipped on some wet lavatory paper, and fallen into a compromising position. Which is a novel defence, it has to be said.Widmerpool 07:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If you do a Google Books search on "Cyril Louis Goldbert" there's a reference in Crime Through Time: The Black Museum by Stephen Richards, page 294. Google lets you see the page. The book looks a bit sensational, but gives dates that could be checked.

Incidentally, I think the bit about "Cyril Louis Goldbert" being a myth needs reassessing. It went into the article in 2005 on the basis of the now-defunct Freeserve website - see the Internet Archive - which might be viewed as unreliable (e.g. it completely omits the Gloucester episode) and I just found two NewsBank references to it. 03:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

What name does the Evening Standard give? Peter Wyngarde or Cyril Louis Goldbert? Format 08:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have the 1975 one, but I get four references (counting variants) from NewsBank:

• Evening Times: Mr Showbiz Byline Chris Young, Evening Times (Glasgow, Scotland), April 6, 2002: "PETER Wyngarde (aka Cyril Louis Goldbert)"
• The regeneration game - TV repeats, Times, The (London, England), November 30, 1991: "Wouldn't it be fun to watch the garish Jason King series now we know that the real name of the man behind that Viva Zapata moustache, that over-blowdried hair and those Seventies flares and frilly shirts was not Peter Wyngarde but Cyril Louis Goldbert?"
• The Independent: TELEVISION: TV HEROES. Independent, The (London, England), January 23, 2003: "Cyril Lovis Goldbert, to give the Marseilles-born Wyngarde his real name"
• TV Review: Walking On The Wilde Side, Evening Standard, The (London, England) July 17, 2001: "the revelation in court of his real name: Cyril Lovis Goldbert".

By the "verifiability, not truth" criterion, it definitely should go in - alongside the official disclaimer - as having been reported. Tearlach 16:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Over the years, this story has been added to and exaggerated over and over, until it's now become a grotesque game of Chinese Whispers! The man has been in a relationship with a woman for nearly 30 years. It's time this rubbish was put to bed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filbert007 (talk • contribs) 10:03, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

The basic information is out there, but never with a decent source. For example, this summary seems to have everything including dates, both parties' names, the fine, etc., but it is in a very trashy book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nbI2SEh7w34C&pg=PT228&lpg=PT228&dq=peter+wyngarde+whalley+1975&source=bl&ots=bbQOjuke0b&sig=zFwJf4-Tjuk50tFW5lKTxD7fC_Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT0ZCpptPOAhVlLMAKHalWAr8Q6AEIOjAE#v=onepage&q=peter%20wyngarde%20whalley%201975&f=false

Sexuality?

I'm a little dubious about the claims that he is gay. Both citations in that paragraph are written by the same person - Donald Spoto. And a Google search turns up some circumstantial evidence, but nothing all that concrete or reliable. Does anyone have a better source? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Is The Independent good enough for the cruising story? http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20030123/ai_n9677507 Soane 23:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Not particularly. There are several mentions on the web about his being prosecuted for cottaging, but nothing says he is gay. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

He was Alan Bates' partner in the 1960s. Their relationship is well documented in Alan Bates' biography "Otherwise Engaged". This along with the highly documented case of him cottaging in the 1970s is more than enough evidence, regardless of whether Wyngarde himself has "come out" or not. 80.41.81.73 (talk) 01:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The Donald Spoto's unauthorized biography about Alana Bates is like manure imported from China: far fetched! Wyngarde's 'relationship' with Bates was on a purely professional basis - and that comes from someone who knew them both! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filbert007 (talk • contribs) 10:05, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Peter gave his time freely to Spoto, but was entirely misquoted. His 'relationship' with Bates was based entirely on their shared love of acting, nothing more. I've known Peter personally for many, many years. The ridiculous stories that are out there about him are mad. I certainly don't recognize the person they're supposed to portray! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filbert007 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Accuracy

The accuracy of the article is disputed by Filbert007 (talk · contribs) who appears to be in contact with Peter Wyngarde. The differences are significant - see Draft:WYNGARDE PETER (Authorised Biography). In starting this section I offer no opinion about the variations but only to encourage anyone interested to discuss here, not get into an edit war on the article. Nthep (talk) 10:26, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for offering to discuss this. I have been Peter's closest friend for 30 years. I know him better than anyone on the planet. He is upset and angry that someone should claim definitively, for instance, that his sexuality was "known" in showbiz circles without providing a specific source (I.e. you objected to my just adding 'Peter said' explainations et al, yet the foundation on which this assertion rests is ambiguous at best!). Who told you this? Or have we all just got to take your (or Donald Spoto's!?!) word for it? If you're going to make such a potentially damaging/embarrassing statement, it needs something more substantial to back it, or it amounts to nothing more than hearsay!!! Where's the "balance" you spoke of? You make no mention of his marriage or of his affairs with numerous actresses. What about the Paternity case in France in the 1970's? I bet you didn't know about these things because the media are only interested in one thing - sensationalism, and those tired stories are what your article is based on. It's the same old tired tale, rehashed! If such a claim is being made,then Peter MUST be afforded the right to offer his version of events!

I've been working on a very detailed update to my draft, which I will upload on Tuesday morning. If you would take the time to read it, after which If you can say with hand on heart, your version is better researched. Has more reliable sources. Is more balanced and is more informative, Peter and I will back off. Otherwise, ours should stand. I'll await your response. Filbert007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filbert007 (talk • contribs) 23:12, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

For the attention of the author of this Peter Wyngarde biography:

I have updated the draft of my version of the Biography, which I invite you to read. As you will see, I’ve listed in detail all my source material, and clearly identified the segments obtained from Mr Wyngarde himself. I stand by what I said in my post (Talk) at the weekend (28/05/16) – specifically, that if you can provide any material that disproves the content of MY ‘Article’, and/or are able to further substantiate the sections currently in contention in yours (see below), then you will never hear from Mr Wyngarde or I again, The main items of contention are:

Peter Wyngarde’s date of birth.

I would be willing to email to you a copy of the February 1942 article from The Totem Cub Scouts Magazine (as reference in my ‘Article’) in which 8-year-old Peter is pictured with his friends from the 4th Shanghai (Telephone Company) Cub Pack. This would add further testimony to demonstrate that he could not possibly have been 16 at the time he entered Lunghau.

In addition, I have a wristband he wore when in hospital recently, which clearly gives his date of birth. I can easily scan and forward it.

Statement about Peter’s supposed homosexuality:

You appear to blindly accept as gospel Donald Spoto’s account of Mr Wyngarde’s association with Alan Bates – quoting from his book, ‘Alan Bates: Otherwise Engaged’ (also referencing Lewis Roger’s article based on the same source from 2007).

The assertion is that Mr Wyngarde’s ‘supposed’ homosexuality was “well-known in acting circles”. Yet in spite of making such an emphatic declaration as a point of ‘fact’, you fail to validate the allegation with any first-hand testimony of your own, which is vital given the gravity of the statement. Without it, it’s mere conjecture!

The term “well-known” suggests that this ‘knowledge’ was prevalent within acting circles, meaning that the majority of actors would’ve been privy to it. If that’s the case, then you’d have had little difficulty in finding more than enough individuals to corroborate this assertion whilst conducting your own research (assuming that you stepped away from your PC occasionally, so as not to rely entirely on the Internet, which can be a notoriously unreliable source of information).

If Spoto had conducted a more thorough investigation, he’d have come into contact with several actresses who’d have given him a contradictory account. Perhaps he did, but then the agenda was to sensationalise Bates’ private life. To discover that the male lover actually slept with girls would’ve proved somewhat inconvenient!(?)

The nick-name ‘Petunia Winegum’:

My argument is as above. (In actual fact, this name came about in an early 1970’s sketch by The Two Ronnies, and wasn’t predominant in acting circles in the early to mid-Sixties, as Spoto asserts!).

Minor Points:

I have absolutely no record of Mr Wyngarde having ever worked in Germany, as you state in your article.

The Hellfire Club – The Official Peter Wyngarde Appreciation Society is not “defunct” as you claim. It merely transferred onto Facebook, and can presently be found at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/813997125389790/ The page was hacked into in January, 2016, and restarted as a Group during that month.

If you intend to write about a Living Person, then it’s IMPERATIVE that you do more extensive research than you would if you were writing about the production of light bulbs! Inaccurate or inflammatory content can lead to unaccountable damage and distress, both to the subject person and their friends and family. Unauthorised biographies (I understand that Spoto’s account is being challenged by AT LEAST two other parties, both in the UK and the United States!) and Internet forums are not always the most reliable sources of information. By building your article almost entirely on these particular foundations, you’ve succeed only in buying into a decades old game of Chinese Whispers, and rehashing already embroidered stories! In respect of the incident of ‘Gross Indecency’: This happened over 45 years ago. Mr Wyngarde has paid his dues a thousand times over. Under European Law (Ruling C-131/12 – ‘Right To Be Forgotten’), he is entitled to have all references to this incident removed from any online/written source (we would have no hesitation on insisting that this Directive is executed in this particular instance). As previously stated, the facts concerning this incident have been added to and distorted over the years, and have been repeated ad infinitum online. Thus far, our legal representative has been successful in having 27 pages containing mention of this incident, and/or vitriolic and inaccurate information blocked or removed from the Internet* (thankfully, the majority of misinformed bloggers tend to delete these yarns voluntarily when challenged, simply because they’re unable to substantiate them).

• We currently have four more ‘Incidents’ pending (Refs: 9267494628489; 8364293-034736; 32649036575 & 1193774526489) with online search engines etc., and are also in the process of preparing libel cases against two prominent authors. We will be requesting that Wikipedia also remove any reference to this incident without delay. While we don’t wish to go down that route in this instance, we will if necessary.

Once again, if you’re able to provide more detailed and verifiable source material than you have listed at present, or if you’re able to dispel anything or all of the information/source material used and l listed in our biography, then you’ll hear no more from either Mr Wyngarde or I. Otherwise, we’ll have no alternative but to insist that the offending material is removed.

Our legal adviser has suggested that we give you 7 days from today’s date to consider whether you intend to stand by your Article. Otherwise, you should allow our version of this biography to stand.

We look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Regards,

Filbert007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filbert007 (talk • contribs) 10:05, 31 May 2016‎

True name and age

Real name is Cyril Goldbert. Born 1928. This is according to a 1943 document created by the British Residents' Association of Shanghai and utilized to create a list of internees of Lunghwa camp. Document FO 916/1345 held in the British National Archives.

Shanghailander1941 (talk) 22:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems persuasive, but see also my updates to the separate Year of birth section above, quoting some immigration and travel records which say 1927 and 1929. I think we can rule out 1933. Sah10406 (talk) 13:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Issues with article - WP:UNDUE

I have removed the section on his arrest for a couple of reasons: 1. The sources are not about the subject, they are passing mentions in articles/books about someone he was previously in a relationship with. 2. I am generally of the opinion that homosexual acts-based convictions given the culture at the time (70's UK) are certainly not relevant/notable by today's standards. 3. Tabloid gossip is not encyclopedic material. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:43, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

"Weasel Cottaging" sounds particularly unsavoury. Is it related to other dubious Mustelidae-centred pastimes at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:16, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Year of birth

As a fan of very long standing, when I was a teenager(back in the 60s) I looked him up in a reference book for tv actors/directors (a black binding, I can't remember the name of it, but it was pre availablity of Spotlight in libraries if Spotlight existed then) and it stated his birthday was 28th August 1927, Marseilles, son of a French mother and that his father was in the import/export business. The following year I noticed that year had been changed to 1928. I accept the fact he may have wanted to alter his birthdate for reasons of vanity and work suitablity,when younger but surely after a certain age it becomes irrelevant and that date would seem to be more accurate given J. G. Ballard's account of their time in a prisoner of war camp when he stated that Peter was four years older than himself.

I had no idea how to edit an entry, I was experimenting, and certainly was not attempting 'vandalism' as was suggested in the note that I received from Wiki. My own husband was an actor and I can appreciate that facts have to be verified. Archiesmum (talk) 16:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.218.132 (talk) 16:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I have been doing some research on documents that give or suggest his DOB, or at least year of birth:

December 1945: The record of C. Goldbert's arrival in Southampton from Shanghai on the Arawa, a Cunard Line vessel. He is listed as 18 years old, which suggests his year of birth is 1927. See http://www.britmovie.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=119920&s=6ac962ad97d506ac5e18c47491478f39&p=2199460&viewfull=1#post2199460. Full reference is Name: C Golbert, Birth Date: abt 1927, Age: 18, Port of Departure: Shanghai, China, Arrival Date: 14 Dec 1945, Port of Arrival: Southampton, England, Ship Name: Arawa, Shipping line: Cunard White Star, Official Number: 140148

August 1947: A Theatre Programme posted to his Facebook Fan page last month shows him playing an adult part in Noel Coward's Present Laughter at the Theatre Royal Birmingham in a production that opened on 7 August 1947. Logic would say he was at least 18 at the time. His official birth year of 1933 would make him only 13 at this time, which surely proves it is not correct. Unless it's a schools or youth theatre production, but there's no suggestion of that. The link (although you may need to join the public group): https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=142442626191219&set=gm.918591204930381&type=3&theater

The 1947 theatre programme has now been removed from the Facebook group, presumably because it prompts questions about the accuracy of a 1933 birthdate Sah10406 (talk) 13:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

October 1948. Peter Wyngarde is first listed on the London Electoral Roll for Camden, Hampstead area. Living at 1 Thurlow Road. Eligibility for the electoral roll was to be 21 years old in October 1948. This demonstrates a birth year of 1927 latest.

June 1960: A 1960 US immigration document gives his date of birth as 28 August 1929. The same document quotes his passport number, so presumably that was the DOB in the passport. See it here: http://www.britmovie.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=119920&s=6ac962ad97d506ac5e18c47491478f39&p=2199460&viewfull=1#post2199460. Oddly, on the return to the UK later that year, the passenger manifest gives his DOB as 27 July 1929. Either way, he has shaved 2 years off his birth year by 1960.

Summary and conclusion: JG Ballard says 1926 but based on his own memory only. UK arrival document, London Electoral Roll and the actors' directory quoted by the user above say 1927; internment camp register and the later version of the directory quoted above say 1928 [which is the date and source currently used in the article]; the 1960 immigration documents say 1929; and Wyngarde himself now says 1933. Evidence points to 1927 being the correct year, with 1928 a close second. 1929 seems to be a fabrication from the early 1960s, and 1933 a more recent fabrication. I am minded to amend the DOB on the Page to 1927. Sah10406 (talk) 08:56, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

If it was a case of two options, I would agree but as it stands there are 3 credible (the middle three) options and two unlikely or unreliable. This is better handled in the prose, it cant be in the infobox or stated as fact anywhere due to the dispute anyway. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:44, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

What is his real name and date of birth?

See this Website about Peter Wyngarde for an anecdote about the actor's real name, namely, this bit:

I've read on several websites that Peter's real name is Cyril Louis Golbert. Is that true? No, it isn't true! It is a little-known fact that Peter is the nephew of the renowned French actor, Louis Juvet. During an interview with a British newspaper in the early Seventies whilst at the height of his popularity, Peter was asked what his real name was; jokingly, he quoted his uncle's name. For some inexplicable reason, the name not only stuck but was added to over the years. Peter's real and full name is Peter Paul Wyngarde.

So who should we believe? (See also, Brigitte Bardot's real name, frequently listed in reference works as Camille Javal, which is in fact her character's name in the film Les Mepris) MinorEdit July 1, 2005 06:04 (UTC)

OK, I'm putting the above in the actual article. MinorEdit July 3, 2005 00:34 (UTC)

The best place for information on him is at the Official Peter Wyngarde Appreciation Society: https://www.facebook.com/groups/813997125389790/ It's run by his closest friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filbert007 (talk • contribs) 10:00, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

This ‘Article’ has come to the attention of Mr Wyngarde, who has given me authorisation to represent him (a letter in Mr Wyngarde's own hand has been sent to Wikipedia confirming this).

The piece in question has been found to be erroneous at best and Libellous at worst. It’s been badly sourced by the author, who has clearly relied entirely on unauthorised biographies, misleading newspaper reports (which have since been rescinded), out-dated Internet gossip and hearsay. Our attempt to rectify these inaccuracies on Wednesday, May 26th, 2016, was rejected by the Author, who immediately reposted his original version (this entirely unreasonable action has been noted by our Legal Representative). He/she then advised us in no uncertain terms that Mr Wyngarde has no jurisdiction over the events of his own life, nor had he or his close associates any right to correct his/her (the Author) inaccuracies! Whilst Mr Wyngarde respects the ‘Authors’ right to free speech, in return, Mr Wyngarde MUST be afforded the same courtesy to give his version of events!

Since many journalists now rely on Wikipedia rather than bother to do their own research, any oversight, error or omission in this ‘Article’ is destined to be perpetrated as long as it remains online (we have already seen several editorials in national newspapers in recent months that have used entire sections of this particular ‘Article’, and reproduced them, virbatum). In addition to the harmful effect this is having on Mr Wyngarde’s reputation, there is much in the ‘Article’ that is incomplete and ambiguous.

N.B. (Minor example of inaccuracy): The ‘Author’ suggests that Mr Wyngarde was born in 1928. He/she bases this on a passage in an autobography – the author of which is not known to Mr Wyngarde and has never met him. We, on the other hand, have Mr Wyngarde’s original birth certificate, issued in Marseilles in 1933, which confirms that Mr Wyngarde was born in August of that year. Our attempt to rectify this mistake was rejected by the ‘Author’, and his original wording was immediately reposted. (Through legal means, we have been successful in having many of the articles that this particular ‘Author’ uses as “sources” removed from the Internet and/or withdrawn by their instigator when challenged. This development now renders the majority of the ‘Authors’ resources outdate, null and void.)

A formal complaint has been forwarded to Wikipedia, along with a more balanced and accurate account of Mr Wyngarde's life and career for consideration.

Written on behalf of Mr Peter Wyngarde.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Filbert007 (talk • contribs) 10:30, 27 May 2016‎

Please do make the birth certificate available, and show us we are all mistaken about his birth date and his birth name. Trouble is, if he was born in 1933, this means that in the 1947 production of Noel Coward's "Present Laughter" at Birmingham Theatre Royal, where he played the adult role of Morris Albert, he was 13 years old. It also means that when he was listed on the 1948 Electoral Roll he was only 16, even though the qualifying was 21. Peter Wyngarde may have had very good reasons to fabricate his age or even his birth name during his acting heyday, but given the evidence we now have about his early life, it is preposterous to insist 1933 is the correct date.Sah10406 (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually it is disputed (not just by the subject) but by third parties as well. As the lede makes clear. I have removed the birth date from the infobox as the infobox is for clear factual information. Not speculative. That is best explained in the prose of the article (which it is). Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:13, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Good idea, thanks. Sah10406 (talk) 15:37, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Who was his mother?

I can only find a record of Henry Goldbert having one wife: Marcheritta M. Ahin, who was a Swiss national born in 1908. Was Marcheritta Cyril's mother? The official story is that his mother was French, not Swiss, but evidence suggests Marcheritta may well be his mother, since she is the mother of his two younger siblings born 1930 and 1932. Or was he the result of another woman's pregnancy by Henry Goldbert, who gave the child his name? If so, raised by her, or raised as part of the Goldbert family? He definitely went with his younger siblings to Shanghai, all in their teens or younger, so it seems fairly likely that Marcheritta was his mother.

At some point probably in the early to mid 1940s, Henry and Marcheritta Goldbert separated and divorced. At the time of his internment at Lunghua in 1943) the official story is that Cyril was living in Shanghai "with a Swiss family". Was this "Swiss family" actually his own family, or Marcheritta and his siblings? Or another family in the Swiss community?? Hard to know. If the latter, where were his mother and siblings?

Marcheritta remarried in Shanghai in 1947 at age 39, to a British man named John Macauley. (Marriage record available via Ancestry website). By this time, all the Goldbert children had already left Shanghai for the UK: Cyril had sailed to the UK in 1945, and the two younger ones in 1946 (Again, the travel records are on Ancestry and cited in the article). John Macauley may be the stepfather that Wyngarde has sometimes mentioned?

I have been corresponding via Ancestry with an amateur genealogist whose late mother was in Lunghua with Cyril Goldbert and JG Ballard, and knew them both. Needless to say, she confirms that Cyril Goldbert became Peter Wyngarde. My correspondent created a Goldbert family tree for her mother after the mother had been angry and confused when she saw that Peter Wyngarde had changed his name, birth year and family origins, and had apparently had "told stories about his time in camp that weren't true".

Sah10406 (talk) 13:57, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

This September 1956 article names Madge Macauley (formerly Goldbert, nee Ahin) as Wyngarde's mother, with quotes from her: http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19560913-1.2.107.aspx. I see that by 1956, Wyngarde is already saying he was born in around 1929. There is an earlier article about her at http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19521031-1.2.12.aspx.

The only doubt I have about Madge Macauley is why Cyril Goldbert did not benefit from Swiss protection in Shanghai as her son? She (Swiss) and the other two children (British, according to 1946 passenger records) were protected from internment in Lunghua, but Cyril was not. Any theories out there?

Sah10406 (talk) 07:55, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Personal life

With some trepidation, I have added a Personal Life section. His marriage to Dorinda Stevens is reported in the biography on the Hellfire Club website, and although there is no UK marriage record (apparently they married in Italy), on the 1953 London Electoral roll he is recorded as living with a Dorinda Wyngarde, which seems sound evidence to me.

Whatever the exact nature of his friendship with actor Sir Alan Bates, it is notable in itself that they were friends who shared a flat for some years (also verified through the London Electoral Roll for 1962-1965 inclusive, 1966 onwards not available). While Spoto's biography of Bates (and subsequent reviews and articles) presents it as a romantic relationship, with plenty of detail, I have noted that others have said it was platonic.

While there are some books and websites that quote some fine detail about arrests and fines for gross indecency, until a proper record can be cited, I would say they don't belong in this article. Even with the detail and sources, I am not sure this is notable, except perhaps in the context of public perception of him.

Sah10406 (talk) 15:37, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for doing that, Sah10406, that all looks perfectly reasonable. Is it clear that Wyngarde and Bates had "a relationship" at all, or did they just share a flat? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

It's unclear, sources about bates indicate they did, the subject says no, and sources about the subject don't go into detail. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:18, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I have now tweaked "lived with" to "shared a flat with", and been careful about citing the source of them being a couple. In the late 50s, the Electoral Roll also shows him living with a woman called Ruby J. Talbot for a few years, but since she was not notable in herself, it does not seem relevant here. Sah10406 (talk) 07:04, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for tweaking that, User:Sah10406. Thanks also for adding a source for here he currently lives, which is very useful. I know that some editors have a big problem with using the Daily Mail as a source for anything in a BLP, but in the context of a one-to-one interview, I think it's relatively safe. I must admit I can't find a better one. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Was Louis Jouvet really his uncle, and who was the aunt in Marseilles?

The Wikipedia articles about Wyngarde and Louis Jouvet both say that Jouvet is Wyngarde's uncle, but both uncited. I have been looking into it, and it is hard to see how they could be uncle and nephew. They could possibly be more distantly related.

Jouvet was born in northern France in 1887, so if Wyngarde was born in Marseilles in 1927 or so, Jouvet would have been about 40, broadly the same generation as Wyngarde's parents, not his grandparents. So far so good.

According to this biography of Jouvet https://archive.org/stream/louisjouvetmanof012887mbp/louisjouvetmanof012887mbp_djvu.txt he had two older brothers, Edmond and Gustave. Wyngarde's father was Henry Goldbert, who was a Russian-born Singapore-naturalised British subject, so Jouvet was not his paternal uncle. Jouvet had no sisters, so he could not have been Wyngarde's maternal uncle either.

Jouvet was only married once, to a Danish woman called Else Collin. See https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7756442. It seems highly unlikely that she was a sister of either of Wyngarde's parents. His mother is said to be French, but may have been Swiss (see separate section about her).

Might he have been a special friend of Wyngarde's mother, as in "Say hello to your Uncle Louis"?

Separately, some onllne biogs say he was born at an aunt's house in Marseilles. Anyone have ideas who she was?

Sah10406 (talk) 13:57, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right that family link looks very unlikely. A special friend "uncle" would explain it. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Another alternative would be his mother/father was sibling to the spouse of Edmund or Gustave Jouvet. I have a number of similar extended uncle/aunt's by marriage in my own family. I had a quick look, but I cannot find any info on Gustave or Edmund's spouses. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:26, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Maybe. In the absence of any records or sources, I am not convinced there is any connection to France, although I guess his mother may have been French-speaking Swiss. His heritage seems to be Russian-Jewish and Eurasian, so perhaps he has spun a fiction about having a British and French background. There was a lot of this about in the early 20th century, an internalised racism I guess. Because of prevailing racism, especially in the UK, people of mixed heritage claimed a 100% European background. See also Merle Oberon. It's sad really. Today it would be a source of pride and interest to have such a exotic background. Maybe one day he will own it. Sah10406 (talk) 09:30, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Legal problems in 1974 and 1975

I have added a reference to his two arrests in the 1970s, one of which led to a conviction. While minor matters, as a public figure they are a significant part of his story. While many historical convictions for gross indecency can be overturned, unfortunately Wyngarde's cannot because while it was consensual and a private matter between two individuals, it happened in a so-called public place. The world changes, but slowly.

I am trying to source the original articles in the News of the World and the Sunday Mercury in which Wyngarde is quoted, but for now I have quoted a biography that cites and quotes them. (talk) 08:17, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

That's not correct. From May 2004, 'gross indecency' ceased to be a crime, Section 13 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 having been repealed under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. In such cases, one can ask for the conviction to be erased.

The article probably should mention the case even so, in as few words as possible, and noting that he denied the charge, because it's part of British social history, like Sir John Gielgud's similar run-in, and it's one of the two things everyone knows about Peter Wyngarde, the other being that he played Jason King in Department S. If it's left out, it becomes 'the dog that didn't bark,' which just seems odd. It probably did not spoil Wyngarde's TV career in the way that's often suggested (even by the National Portrait Gallery website, in their note on the 1969 studio photograph of Wyngarde in the national collection). It was Jason King who spoilt Wyngarde's TV career, because TV fame can be pernicious and if you're over-identified with one TV role you go out of fashion afterwards and they won't cast you. Peter Wyngarde appeared in at least one British TV drama, and often several, every year from 1954 to 1972, which is fairly remarkable. But after that, nothing, and he went back to theatre. Then the 1975 court case happened -- because, despite the 1967 reform, the police were still up to their old, frankly strange tricks -- and he spent five years working in Austria and Germany, where they apparently hadn't heard the news or weren't bothered. Then he came back and did the Flash Gordon movie and Dr Who and The Comic Strip and Bulman and The Two Ronnies.

If I can find a moment I'll check the British Library's newspaper microfilms from October 1975. Apart from anything else, this would determine whether or not he gave the name Cyril Louis Goldbert in court. If he did, then that would settle that. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:30, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

According to Stonewall, while most historical charges of gross indecency can be disregarded and removed, one that involved sexual activity in a public lavatory cannot because that is still illegal. See http://www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/criminal-law/remove-convictions-and-cautions-gross-indecency Sah10406 (talk) 15:03, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Someone has recently added detail about his arrest and fine to the Personal Life section. The source is a true crime book, which does give detail of the fine and the parties involved, but does not itself cite any primary sources. Until that detail can be properly sourced, maybe it should just refer to legal problems, or not be included at all? Sah10406 (talk) 10:04, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Repatriation of the Goldbert children in 1942/43

The UK National Archive holds this interesting document from Peter Wyngarde's childhood. I am hoping to see it when I visit the National Archive for some personal family history research this summer. If there is anything that will inform his biography, I will update.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5115239

Sah10406 (talk) 11:53, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Fully revised Early Life section, with sources

I have been making dozens of small edits to the Early Life section in the last few weeks, as I have been researching the early life of Peter Wyngarde/Cyril Goldbert through public records. Personally I don't think there can be any doubt they are the same person, and that Peter Wyngarde's authorised biography includes some truth-stretching and some outright fibs, but I have tried to be even handed. If you use the Ancestry website, note that a user has created a Goldbert Public Family tree which includes information about his parents' backgrounds and his siblings' later lives, but that doesn't seem relevant here. I had only a small interest in Peter Wyngarde until recently, mostly because a friend lives near him and knew him a little in the 60s, but having gone down all these rabbit holes I am now fascinated by him. Sah10406 (talk) 13:20, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

You seem to have been very careful, diligent and thorough and have come to an educated and very reasoanble conclusion. Unfortunately, as you know, WP is tied wholly to published WP:RS sources (just like the authorsied biography, of course) and you will probably not escape accusations of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. I will not revert you, but there may be many editors who will. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:53, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I have been scrupulous with sources, but many are only available to view through a subscription site like Ancestry. Cyril Goldbert's immigration and travel records are captured and screengrabbed in a forum posting, so I used that as my souce. If someone requires the original source, I can add that too, although it's only accessible by subscription. Sah10406 (talk) 08:32, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for all the reaserch, Sah10406. Subscription sources are perfectly acceptable, although quite annoying, of course. But Ancestry.com usually gets a drubbing from those editors who say there is no editorial oversight i.e. it's just a glorified blogsite. There may be firm guidance somewhere in the archives at WP:RSN. Personally, I’m usually convinced by photographs of documents. But it seems not everyone is so gullible! Martinevans123 (talk) 08:58, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it's reasonable to dispute the public records that an Ancestry subscription gives access to, and which can be fully cited to an offline source. For example, his mother's remarriage info is cited as "The National Archives of the UK; Kew, Surrey, England; General Register Office: Foreign Registers and Returns; Class: RG 33; Piece: 31". While Ancestry also has individual members' personal photos, family trees and ephemera which they have uploaded, they are less reliable. That said, the Goldbert Family Tree made by a private user is brilliantly sourced. Sah10406 (talk) 09:17, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Could the readability of the article be improved by moving some of these "minutiae" to endnotes? For example the long paragraph "J.G. Ballard writes in his autobiography ... suggesting a 1930 birthdate." Muzilon (talk) 11:04, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Very probably, I would suggest. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

OK, I have tentatively moved the Ballard paragraph to an endnote, as a first step. Muzilon (talk) 11:59, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Peter Wyngarde. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160915205815/http://www.britmovie.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=119920&s=6ac962ad97d506ac5e18c47491478f39&p=2199460&viewfull=1 to http://www.britmovie.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=119920&s=6ac962ad97d506ac5e18c47491478f39&p=2199460&viewfull=1

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:07, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

1947 stage role - Morris "Albert"?

I'm not terribly familiar with Noel Coward's Present Laughter, but I see the list of characters includes a Morris Dixon, not Morris "Albert". Unless I'm missing something here? --Muzilon (talk) 07:42, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Peter Wyngarde. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170904151201/http://announcements.johnstonpress.co.uk/obituaries/portsmouth-uk/obituary.aspx?n=henry-peter-goldbert-joe&pid=184942426 to http://announcements.johnstonpress.co.uk/obituaries/portsmouth-uk/obituary.aspx?n=henry-peter-goldbert-joe&pid=184942426

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:21, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

"The nightmare of the incessant prying into Peter’s private life by an online encyclopedia"

See https://peterwyngarde.wordpress.com/2017/01/09/when-is-enough-enough/.

I suppose it is better to be talked about than not talked about! Given how much of his own version of his personal, biographical and family information Peter Wyngarde is happy to share with the blogger and their readers, it's odd and rather hypocritical to call my own parallel research for this article a "nightmare of incessant prying". The so-called "personal family documents" that I have apparently callously exposed are no such thing -- just public records and newspaper clippings available online.

The fact that diligent and sourced research of the public record contradicts many aspects of Peter Wyngarde's own account of his life is worthy of note here. These many contradictions and disputed facts are never addressed by the blogger. The tone of the blog post is that the subject is entitled to not tell the truth about things if he wants to, and that this Wikipedia article is wrong, even cruel, to rely on evidence rather than PR.

Funnily enough, when my research does corroborate the subject's version of events, which it often does, the blogger does seem happy enough to cite these particular "personal family documents" and to take the credit for finding them! Sah10406 (talk) 10:45, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Middle name Louis?

I can't find any primary sources for Cyril Goldbert's middle name being Louis, so I have deleted it. Sah10406 (talk) 14:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Reported death

His death (aged 90) has been reported today on BBC TV - presumably it will be confirmed by published sources shortly. (Confirmed here by his friends on Facebook.) When it is, hopefully some of the questions about his birth, parentage, etc., will be resolved. New editors here may like to read through some of the talk page archive, addressing some of the uncertainties, before rushing into premature changes. (See, for example, this and this.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:25, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject LGBT studies

Can someone explain why this article is relevant to the above-mentioned project? The chap was not an advocate of gay rights or similar, or any other sort of campaigner. I will remove the link unless there are objections. MidnightBlue (Talk) 15:41, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

He was apparently convicted of offences relating to homosexual acts, and there were reports of his personal life ("Bates was in a relationship with Peter Wyngarde, known to the profession as Petunia Winegum, who as Petruchio put a banana down his tights during matinées....") which would be of interest to a LGBT project. Although it appears that his family and friends disputed at least some of these reports, that fact in itself may be of interest to a project that considers cultural attitudes. So, I would not support removing the project link. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:03, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

GHM, so far all of the references online to a non-platonic relationship between Alan Bates and Peter Wyngarde appear to derive from the Donald Spoto biography of Bates, such as the decade old review you cite. All interested editors should look at the talk page archive 1, which only partly duplicates the official Peter Wyngarde website article cited above (and points to apparent anomalies in that account). Philip Cross (talk) 16:27, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Okay, so he is maybe not a heterosexual. I don't think the purpose of the LGBT project is to, in effect, provide a list of all such people. MidnightBlue (Talk) 16:34, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Could he perhaps be tagged for WikiProject Banana Studies? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:39, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

The project tag was added in 2007 by an editor who is no longer active. I understand why it was added but I don't have a strong view either way. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:17, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Peter Wyngarde. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160923055806/http://www.londonfilmconvention.co.uk/dates-and-guests.html to http://www.londonfilmconvention.co.uk/dates-and-guests.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:09, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Link seems to work, but does not seem useful. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:46, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Kensington Rifle and Pistol Club

Have been unable to find any RS sources for this:

Wyngarde was a member of (and at one time on the Committee of) the Kensington Rifle and Pistol Club, which in the 1970s and 1980s was located just off Cromwell Road in Kensington, London."

Although it is mentioned in some blog/ review pages. So am copying here for how. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:01, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

When Sex Leers Its Inquisitive Head

Have been unable to find any RS sources for this:

"According to Wyngarde himself (quoted in the liner notes of the CD re-issue), prior to his deal with RCA Records, EMI Records had also been interested in cashing in on his fame and suggested recording an album of Sinatra songs. However, RCA allowed him carte blanche, assuming that the record would be a failure and could be used as a tax loss. However, when the initial pressings quickly sold out and the album showed a profit, RCA declined to press any more copies."

Although it is said to be in the CD liner notes. If someone who has the CD can confirm this, or can find a source elsewhere, it could be replaced. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:07, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Wyngarde was interviewed about it here. I think we could use his own words. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:28, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that looks like a very good source to use. Martinevans123 (talk)

Synthesis?

In my view, the whole section on "Birth and family background", and much of the "Early life" section, is synthesis with elements of original research. There is clearly a mass of conflicting evidence about his birth, parentage and early years, and when alive he and his family vigorously contested many of the details in the article. The article goes into a great amount of detail over the conflicting claims, but it is not up to any of us editors to identify the truth of the matter. We need to wait to see what emerges from the researches and obituaries published in reliable sources, and then summarise them - and, in the meantime, we should edit out much of the (in my view) synthesis and original research in the current article. Thoughts? Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

A lot of it is backed up by references, and it gives an interesting perspective, while at the same time acknowledging the uncertainties. It seems alright to me, but I'll be interested in the majority view. MidnightBlue (Talk) 15:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Many of the references are to primary sources, and given the disputes with his family and/or friends we should be treating them with great caution. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

I've now had a go at removing much of the material derived from primary sources, large chunks of which appear to me to be original research about his various purported relatives. It's all fascinating stuff, but not in a Wikipedia biographical article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:11, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Since you mention the website of the Peter Wyngarde Appreciation Society (PWAS), I note that we already have editors here busily deleting information quoted from that site on the grounds that "it's just a fan site" and "this isn't a reliable source." Since the website claims to be Wyngarde's official "mouthpiece" and features interviews with the man himself I would have thought it would be OK to cite it (with caution) as per WP:ABOUTSELF, noting when it conflicts with other sources. Perhaps we should try to get a consensus here about how to handle quoting PWAS.--Muzilon (talk) 23:44, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

None of the claims made by the PWAS can be independently verified. Rather than taking an honest and accurate look at his life PWAS treats him with undue reverence, even strongly denying his now widely acknowledged homosexuality. Jack1956 (talk) 03:16, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, maybe he was bisexual, I'm not really worried about that. On more objective matters, PWAS says he was married to Dorinda Stevens for seven years, whereas the WP article says three years. Which is correct?--Muzilon (talk) 03:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Dorothy "Dorinda" May Stevens - BIRTH 16 AUG 1932 • Southampton, Hampshire, England DEATH 10 APR 2012 • Southampton, Hampshire, England - married Michael Boultbee in Nairobi in 1957. No record of a marriage to a Wyngarde or Goldbert at any time suggesting they never married. Jack1956 (talk) 08:12, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

If there was a marriage it may not have been in the UK, so may it not necessarily be in those records? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:35, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

What seems to be widely acknowledged now is that he was bisexual, rather than homosexual. It's certainly true that PWAS treats him with some reverence, and where their statements conflict with other published information that site should be treated with great caution. But it should not be completely dismissed as unreliable - it seems well-informed on many matters and may contain information that is unchallenged elsewhere. Although some of the obituaries in usually reliable sources may have derived some of their information both from here and PWAS, they should provide the basis of the article here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:33, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

In an interview on PWAS, Wyngarde said he and Dorinda Stevens married in Sicily – hence no UK marriage record.--Muzilon (talk) 08:51, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Convenient there would be no record. And of course, PW always told the truth about his early life. Jack1956 (talk) 09:13, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

No online record, at any rate. According to the Talk page archives they were listed as Mr & Mrs Wyngarde on the UK electoral roll in 1953.--Muzilon (talk) 22:03, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

"Wingardium leviosa...!"

I've always assumed that the magic formula used in Harry Potter, "Wingardium leviosa!", was contrived by J K Rowling in homage to Wyngarde. Sadly, I can find no supporting evidence for my assumption. Is there anything in reliable sources? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:00, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary blog suggests that as it's a magical levitation spell, it's merely a combination of the English word "wing" and the Latin word for "steep".--Muzilon (talk) 07:40, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Had the writers of that blog heard of Wyngarde? I guess the only person who would know the origin would be Rowling, and presumably it's not something she's commented on. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:13, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Theatre work in South Africa and Austria?

This unreliable source claims that, after his arrest, he did some stage work in South Africa and Austria. Do we have a better source for this claim? If so, it could be added to the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:39, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

His Times obit also makes a passing comment that he "worked as a Shakespearean actor in South Africa [and] appeared on stage in Vienna," without giving any further details.--Muzilon (talk) 10:26, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I've added a brief sentence. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:48, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Roger Langley's 2012 biography of Wyngarde (self-published, so I don't know if that counts as a "reliable source" as far as Wikipedia is concerned) contradicts The Times slightly by saying Wyngarde appeared as a Shakespearean actor in *Austria* (not South Africa) in 1975-76; and that his tour of South Africa was actually in a 1981 production of Ira Levin's Deathtrap. --Muzilon (talk) 11:15, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

The article now says simply: "In the late 1970s he performed in the theatre in South Africa and Austria." So, we could add a reference to early 1980s if necessary. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:26, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

"No known surviving family"

His niece Julie Lambert, daughter of Henry Peter "Joe" Goldbert, posted to Facebook on 25 January 2018 that his funeral was taking place at Golders Green Crematorium.

https://www.facebook.com/julie.lambert.925?hc_ref=ARTpykpN7si9zoU1oruNjGTmlAFHhwRZIbVi0ZRgiIv5yF_duEMXYWM0EKICStJ4oB4

http://announcements.johnstonpress.co.uk/obituaries/portsmouth-uk/obituary.aspx?n=henry-peter-goldbert-joe&pid=184942426

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sah10406 (talk • contribs) 13:18, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

So it looks like that claim may be incorrect, although the existing source The Guardian plainly states just that. We don't generally consider Facebook as a WP:RS? That second source is from 2011 and is for the funeral of Julie's own father Joe? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't amend the article for that reason. But for those interested in PW's family, the circumstantial evidence is compelling, if not a reliable source we can use and quote. Julie Lambert of Portsmouth, married to Darren, has posted information and tributes online about her uncle Peter Wyngarde's death and funeral, and she has a Vanessa Goldbert and other members of the Goldbert family as Facebook friends, and FWIW the organiser of PW's Appreciation Society. The 2011 death notice for Joe Goldbert (of Portsmouth) shows that he did indeed have a daughter Julie, married to Darren, and a granddaughter Vanessa. Sah10406 (talk) 13:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

No, I don't think we can "use and quote" from anything other than WP:RSs. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:47, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I've taken that sentence out. We shouldn't use FB as a source, but equally we are not obliged to include everything contained in an RS. So, given the circumstances and the fact that there is extremely strong circumstantial evidence that he did have family members, who may be discomfited by false information in the article here, it's best not to include it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:51, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

That's perfectly reasonable. There was a very similar situation recently with Ray Thomas' cause of death. 13:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)Martinevans123 (talk)

I agree, excellent compromise. Sah10406 (talk) 14:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

It may be worth contacting Julie Lambert via Facebook, to ask if she would like to contribute here, to help resolve some of the uncertainties. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't mind doing that, unless someone else already has? I will need to choose my words carefully and respectfully and ask if anything she knows about her uncle, parents and grandparents is relevant to this article, with or without evidence. Wish me luck. Theheartof (talk) 12:23, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I reached out to PW's neice via Facebook, asking politely if she had anything to add or clarify from the family's side. She accepted my message, but chose not to reply. Perfectly fine, she doesn't know me from Adam. Theheartof (talk) 10:12, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Middle name Louis

What is the source of Cyril Goldbert having the middle name Louis? None of the primary sources from Cyril Goldbert's pre-UK life include the middle name Louis or any middle initial, that I can see. The full name "Cyril Louis Goldbert" is usually only cited in reference to the 1975 arrest, but there don't seem to be any official sources for that, and only one contemporary newspaper report, which gives no middle name. Maybe it's just another mystery within a mystery. Theheartof (talk) 12:13, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

There is some discussion about this in the Talk page archives. No primary sources for "Louis" have come to light so far. The earliest secondary reference seems to be a passing comment in The Times back in 1991.--Muzilon (talk) 23:18, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

The cited Guardian obituary does say, "Newspapers reported that he was summoned under his real name of Cyril Louis Goldbert." One would hope the Guardian obits page has a subscription to the British Newspaper Archive. The writers are probably not encouraged to rely on Wikipedia. The BBC obituary (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42731220), The Times and The Stage all give the same full name. On ancestry.co.uk, the member who has filed the McAulay Family Tree (which is private, information available only on request) claims "2 attached records, 2 sources" for a Cyril Louis Goldbert born China 1927. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/categories/42/?name=_GOLDBERT&name_x=1_1 Middle names are seldom given publicly except in court, or when the returning officer reads out the candidates' names on election night, so it would not be surprising if the 1975 court appearance was the only well-known source for that name. Possibly one could check bankruptcy records, but those would be primary and not strictly Wikiable. He might have been entertained to know that, even in death, he remains an international man of mystery. Khamba Tendal (talk) 15:18, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Birth year in lead and infobox (again)

I know this is going over old territory but I'm not sure we should be stating his birthdate as 23 August 1927 quite as confidently as we are. When the following section starts with "... date and place of birth, his birth name, and his parents' nationalities and occupations are all disputed." it doesn't seem to sit that the lead and infobox birthdates don't carry a {{disputed}} tag. I appreciate that The Guardian and i both seem quite definite but The Times [1] is more circumspect and goes no further than "probably born on 23 August 1928" (yes 1928). I doubt the truth will ever emerge so I think the lead ought to reflect the uncertainty more than it does (and this is before I get lambasted on Facebook again as the author of this article by the person who runs the PWAS). Nthep (talk) 15:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I've no objection to adding more {{disputed-inline}} tags, and then removing them as and when they are resolved. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:12, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Actually, the Guardian obit is not very definite: it states "c. 1926 or 1927." And the last I heard, the PWAS manager was banned from Wikipedia for issuing legal threats about this article.--Muzilon (talk) 09:37, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Re the truth of his DOB never emerging, will the GRO death record and details held Golders Green Cemetery be reputable sources? Theheartof (talk) 12:20, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't think the date of his death is in dispute in any way? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

The GRO death certificate is only reliable for date of death, not date of birth as it is only created on the information given by the person making the report and is only what they believe to be correct and therefore maybe inaccurate to a greater or lesser extent. Nthep (talk) 13:28, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Out of curiosity I contacted Singapore's vital records department to determine whether there is a record of a Cyril Goldbert being born there around 1927. They were not very helpful, but it seems they won't release any information about Singapore birth records to an unrelated third party unless the person in question was born at least 100 years ago. --Muzilon (talk) 00:07, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

As pointed out by an anonymous IP editor above, PWAS has suddenly produced what purports to be a scan of Wyngarde's passport showing an implausible birthdate of 28 August 1937 (place of birth: "Marseille".) His biography page has also been updated to state that he had three "step-siblings": Henry, Simone and Charles. This is the first time a "Charles" has been mentioned, as far as I know.--Muzilon (talk) 09:22, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

It has changed again and now says the step-siblings are "Henry, Marion and Paul". Theheartof (talk) 15:26, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

The basic point needs to be reiterated - that what Wyngarde claimed is not necessarily what was true. Some of the points of detail mentioned in the PWAS article may well be true, but others may not be. It is certainly not the case that he was born in both 1937 and 1933, as they (currently) claim. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:40, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

1937! That is preposterous, given the paper trail of his career including adult roles in plays in 1946. As for the Jersey passport, the date of birth and the baseball cap suggest it is not genuine. The Jersey government's requirements say you must "show your full head without any covering (unless for religious beliefs or medical reasons)". (talk) 13:49, 28 February 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theheartof (talk • contribs)

I'm also far from convinced that a Jersey passport supposedly issued in 1994 would look like that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Apparently Jersey had no law against forging passports until 2014.--Muzilon (talk) 01:06, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Let's try and remain neutral about this. If consensus is that PWAS is so inaccurate here then let's just ignore it, not start slating it. The person who runs PWAS was very close to PW [2] and remembers him from a certain viewpoint. Unfortunately that viewpoint is not going always to coincide with WP policies but I don't think she is ever going to accept that [3] and will not accept that not everything PW ever said was accurate. Nthep (talk) 18:53, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

In any event, I think this newly added paragraph about PWAS is very tendentious and not "neutral".--Muzilon (talk) 10:59, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:24, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the part about Tina Bate. Nthep (talk) 12:52, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I've finally found a contemporary report of the 1975 court case via the British Newspaper Archive: "Jason King Star Fined in Sex Case" by Sydney Young, Daily Mirror, 18 October 1975, page 7 (subscription required). It gives Wyngarde's age as 47 (suggesting a 1928 birth year) and says he "appeared [yesterday] before Gloucester magistrates under his real name - Cyril Goldbert." Admittedly this is a tabloid source, so perhaps not WP:RELIABLE.--Muzilon (talk) 11:55, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

If legitimately published books are permitted as sources, Wyngarde's arrest and conviction for cottaging is mentioned in the capsule biography of him in TV Unforgettables (Guinness Publishing, 1993) by Anthony and Deborah Hayward, and in the chapter covering Jason King, including actress Sue Lloyd's recollection of the production of Noel Coward's Present Laughter during which the offence occurred, in Cult TV: The Golden Age Of ITC (Plexus Publishing Ltd., 2006) by Robert Sellers. Sellers' Don't Let The Bastards Grind You Down (Preface Publishing, 2011) also mentions Wyngarde's relationship with Alan Bates, in its sections on Bates. Certain fans of Wyngarde's may have taken exception to Donald Spoto's biography of Bates, but in that book Spoto did not mention Wyngarde's cottaging, nor how his career declined while Bates' prospered. Dolmance (talk) 15:48, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

On the same issue of published books, Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins who manages the website, blog and Facebook group for PW's appreciation society, and who says she was his romantic partner for 30 years, has announced that she has written a book called Peter Wyngarde: A Life Amongst Strangers. It will be published by Austin Macauley in 2019. I hope she doesn't lose money, because Google reveals that the publisher does not have a great reputation. See https://peterwyngardebiography.webs.com/?fbclid=IwAR1U8u1ZL1WZrcN2S4qpch4KjbTKug9hMydsOIUVHGMv6R5TANz7_R9kWO0 For clarity in following previous edits, Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins is the same person who was previously called Tina Bate. See https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3065030 Theheartof (talk) 13:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC) 13:38, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

This lady has made a number of unsubstantiated and unverifiable claims about her relationship with Mr Wyngarde since his death including a denial of his documented homosexuality. I do not therefore think that her hagiographical biography is going to be a reliable source! Dreamspy (talk) 22:57, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Sadly, that's true -- a sympathetic biography of Wyngarde could be written taking a view of him as a gay man prevented by society from being himself, but she won't even concede that that was what he was. It's also very likely that she'll try to explain his barely working, in later life, as an example of his "perfectionism", when in reality he hardly helped his cause by terming people who could have given him work "mediocre", and remaining shackled to the outdated, kitschy Jason image. Dolmance (talk) 14:27, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

WP:COI and personal attacks
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I have been reading the above with interest and admiring the prophetic gifts of Messrs Dreamspy and Dolmance in relation to my forthcoming book. While the website for the biography is cited in the text above, it appears that neither of these characters have bothered to read the independent reviews posted on there, which state numerously that it's one of the most frank and honest biographies that each of the critics has ever read. Knowing the type of cynics I'd be forced to deal with when I decided to undertake this project - yourselves included - I stated from the outset that I would deliver it to fans and critics alike, warts and all! The story I tell has been corroborated with documentary evidence, and by Peter's friends, enemies and colleagues alike. For the record - I do not have an obligation to substantiate or verify my private life to a bunch of faceless people who continue to skulk behind usernames. I couldn't care less whether you believe my story or not. However, if 'Dolmance' and 'Dreamspy' wish to put their money where your mouth is when the book is published and challenge it as a work of fiction, I shall look forward to hearing from them. With regard to my change of name: This was a private matter between Mr Wyngarde and myself, and I'd thank you to stay out of my business. Given that you are still using the so-called 'Obituary' from The Guardian (19/01/18) as a 'reliable'(?!) source speaks volumes. Did you not notice the number of complaints that this vile piece received from the public? Were you not aware that the author of this fiction was sacked by The Guardian when they learned of said writer's underhandedness and the reason for that he complied such a hatchet job? Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins (not hiding behind a username) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins (talk • contribs) 19:59, 2 June 2019 (UTC) Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins, I'm also "not hiding behind a username" either. You seem to be disputing the accuracy of one of the sources. I wonder could you clarify which one you mean. As far as I can see, the article currently has at least 8 different sources either directly published by The Guardian or published through it. But none of them seems to be dated "19/01/18". Furthermore, although you don't directly name the author of the disputed obituary piece, you seem to be making some rather serious allegations about them, which you may wish to withdraw, or else to substantiate with published facts. You also say "I'd thank you to stay out of my business"; but, as you may be aware, for purposes of WP:PSCOI, you may be required to briefly make your relationship with Peter Wyngarde quite clear. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:17, 2 June 2019 (UTC) The article to which I refer was quoted a number of times in the main body of the PW biography. It was written by Gavin Gaughan and published in The Guardian on 19th January, 2018. I do not wish to withdraw what I said about the author of the aforementioned piece as it is true. I have an email from The Guardian's Obituaries Editor, Mr. Robert White who, having learned what had led up to Gaughan penning the article, wrote: “I cannot foresee any situation in which Gavin Gaughan would be asked to write for us again.” Re. "as you may be aware, for purposes of WP:PSCOI,You may be required to briefly make your relationship with Peter Wyngarde quite clear." That is never going to happen. I don't see anyone else having to provide evidence of THEIR relationships. It just smacks of voyeurism! I feel that the two individuals to whom I referred previously - namely 'Dolmance' and 'Dreamspy' - should retract their wildly speculative comments about me and my forthcoming book. They have absolutely no right to question my integrity, or to make wild speculations about a product prior to it going on sale that might damage the reputation of both its creator and the product itself. The Wyngarde Estate would also be interested in seeing the "published documentation" (referred to above) that categorically proves beyond doubt that Mr Wyngarde was homosexual. Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.74.222 (talk) 20:53, 2 June 2019 (UTC) Hello again Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins.Thanks for your swift response. Regarding "That is never going to happen", have you actually read WP:PSCOI? Regarding Gavin Gaughan, you'll note that I said "published facts", not private emails to which only you have access. If you have a problem with this source, you'll need to explain where you think it is materially wrong, i.e. which items in the article are untrue or should not be included because that source can be shown to be unreliable. You (and any other editors trying to follow this thread) might find it useful if you always logged in to your editor's account and always signed your posts with four tildes. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:05, 2 June 2019 (UTC) Dear Martin Evans, Thank you, but I'm not interested in WP:PSCOI. I don't feel that I have to justify myself to anyone - certainly not Wikipedia! Regarding the Guardian article: I feel that it would be highly unlikely that such a high profile daily newspaper would publish the fact that they'd unceremoniously dumped one of their regular contributors, so to expect "published facts" is ludicrous! It was clear from the outset that all Mr Gaughan had done was trawl the internet for any kind of malicious gossip and/or unsubstantiated tittle-tattle which he then cobbled together under the auspices of an 'obituary'. It speaks volumes about the people who maintain this PW biography that, in spite of the number of complaints this particular article attracted from the public, they still persist in using it as a "reliable source". Further to the use of Robert Sellars book, 'Don't Let The Bastards Grind You Down' (as mentioned above): One doesn't need to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce that Mr Sellars had used Donald Spoto's biography, 'Alan Bates: Otherwise Engaged' as a source. Indeed, most of the paragraphs devoted to Mr Wyngarde in his book are quoted almost word-for-word. It should be pointed out to some of your 'colleagues' that just because something is published/repeated more than once, it doesn't make it more right. I intend to dispel the claims in both of these "legitimately published books" via my biography, using REAL documentary evidence. The Wyngarde Estate still await Dreamspy's "documented" evidence that categorically proves that Mr Wyngarde was "homosexual" (this should not include 44-year old tabloid cuttings that report on a specific incident in 1975. That does not demonstrate what Dreamspy alludes to). I'd also like to remind 'Dreamspy' and 'Dolmance' to remove their slur on my integrity. Neither of these characters know me personally and therefore have no justification in suggesting that I am anything other that who I say I am and 100% honest. They should also remove the guesswork regarding my forthcoming book. Again, they know absolutely nothing of its content, and therefore have no basis for their outlandish comments. N.B. I have absolutely no interest in Wikipedia protocols. Once the document(s) referred above have been forwarded and the comments about myself removed from this page, I don't wish to have anything more to do with this contemptible website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins (talk • contribs) 10:56, 3 June 2019 (UTC) You say you are "not interested in WP:PSCOI" and that you have "absolutely no interest in Wikipedia protocols". If that is the case you can expect to have your account indefinitely blocked as being WP:NOTHERE. Good luck with your forthcoming book, which other editors may or may not find a useful source for this article. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:03, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Birth and family background

This section is currently tagged with WP:UNDUE. But I think it's a reasonable size What do others think? This is the only issue now preventing posting the death of Wyngarde at RD on the main page. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:10, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I've given it another trim. The article as a whole is starting to look more balanced, but some more work might be beneficial. Bring me the bore worms.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone know why the newspaper i is quoting the specific birthdate of 27 August 1927? Jack1956 (talk) 12:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

I would have thought that depends on the newspaper. Perhaps for the reasons given in "Note 1"? in the article? Perhaps because they have access to the birth records for Marseille? It's only really the year that's been in dispute. All of the initial BBC radio news reports I heard described him as "aged 90", so you would assume they did some homework. Newspapers typically don't disclose their sources, and indeed may deliberately choose not to. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

My print copy of the i says 28 August 1927....  ?? Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

My mistake on a cursory read - 28 August it is. Jack1956 (talk) 18:30, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

His passport says he was born on 28 August 1937, not 1927. [4] 2.31.166.197 (talk) 05:40, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

We have no way of verifying the authenticity of that image. (Are you even allowed to wear a baseball cap in a British passport photo?) --Muzilon (talk) 08:38, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

How very odd. I searched here, but failed to find anything at all. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:25, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

PS: The first notice of his death seems to have been given by his agent, who presumably knew that PW was born in 1927 rather than 1933 regardless of what he had previously claimed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:28, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

I just did a further small edit of the details of the wartime correspondence about the Goldbert children, which I viewed at the National Archives before adding it here recently. It does not mention Cyril or any of the children by the first names, but as I have added in my note on the edit, the family name, ages and genders of the children everything else correspond exactly with Cyril, Adolphe and Marion. Theheartof (talk) 11:15, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Your edit summary says: "The children are not named in the correspondence, but the names and ages correspond exactly with Cyril, Adolphe and Marion." That looks a bit self-contradictory? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:40, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

"Names" = family name, I assume....? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:55, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I was trying to keeping it short. There are no *given* names for the children in the correspondence, only the family name, the parent, and the ages and genders. I have edited again to remove my previous "Master Goldbert" Theheartof (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

For the record, it seems the Appreciation Society has changed its mind about his birthday yet again. The new date given is 28 August 1928.[5] I've updated the endnote with that information. Muzilon (talk) 06:27, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Sources for Wyngarde's falsified background

It's very fortunate that Wikipedia has now had first-hand contact with Tina Bate (as was); such goes a long way to indicating the accuracy and appropriateness of the article's content. Notwithstanding her comments above (which are exactly what one would expect ), she is clearly devoted to establishing as fact claims that cannot be proven and which (as above) she has no intention of attempting to prove- whilst at the same time claiming unassailable authority. Her adherence to the demonstrably false version of Wyngarde's early life is indicated through such being given under her name on IMDB and even on sites such as https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp131335/peter-wyngarde. The nature of the account she gives there, and the extent of it, is indicative. Clearly she's very invested in the public perception of and legitimisation of the relationship she alleges them to have had. This note is here to identify other sources of the false history, citing which, in future, no doubt attempts will be made to add the content to this article- just a 'heads up' if you will for the editors working hard to keep this article of good quality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.123.166 (talk) 22:26, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

It is less fortunate that Wikipedia also draws this kind of intentionally unsigned comment. Its only function seems to be to sully another user anonymously. Uwe Sommerlad (talk) 19:03, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Estate details

The London Gazette published details of his estate on 2 May 2019, confirming his name as "Peter Paul Wyngarde (otherwise Cyril Goldbert)". See the online notice at https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3266755 or the PDF of the full issue at https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/62632. Listing on page 92. Article lightly edited accordingly, citing this source for his original name. Theheartof (talk) 17:38, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

For anyone interested in the details of Peter Wyngarde's estate, the grant of probate is publicly available behind a paywall (£1.50) at https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate The only additional info compared to the notice in the London Gazette is that the estate is valued at £65,102 plus it has the contact details of his executors Stephen and Ian Goldbert, his nephews 195.50.110.6 (talk) 14:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Times says he's Jouvet's nephew?

I just searched the online Times Digital Archive and can't find a reference in the 2 August 1954 issue to Louis Jouvet being Wyngarde's uncle, as claimed in the article. There is a passing mention of Wyngarde on page 9 of that issue, but only in the context of him featuring in a radio production of Jean Anouilh's Leocadia. Unless I'm missing something? For the record, a couple of other newspapers have published the same claim. [6][7] ETA: I see this claim apparently comes from the Appreciation Society, which has posted a clipping supposedly from the Times.[8] Perhaps the date or source of the clipping is wrong. Or perhaps the clipping was from a special edition of the Times that is not preserved in the online archive. Muzilon (talk) 21:51, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

I have contacted someone who has researched Louis Jouvet's genealogy to ask if and how Peter Wyngarde may be connected to Louis Jouvet via his maternal side (Ahin) or paternal (Goldbert) sides, and for any primary evidence. Meanwhile I wonder if the connection is via the Leo Juvet watch company, a Swiss watch company based in Shanghai from the 1860s: http://lsyf.com/the-legend-of-juvet-history-in-china/. Perhaps PW's mother Marcheritta (Ahin Goldbert) MacAulay was linked by marriage to that family somehow? His mother was Swiss by nationality when she married John MacAuley in the 1940s, and PW's own story is that he stayed with a Swiss family when he was in Shanghai. It doesn't all fit together with Henry Goldbert and his other children, but there may be something there. It's one reason I am looking forward to the upcoming biography... Theheartof (talk) 10:15, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

PWAS says it was Wyngarde's mother who was a member of the Juvet family (apparently a variant spelling of Jouvet).[9] See also this 1970 item from The Age (Australia).[10] Muzilon (talk) 10:22, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

PWAS also now gives a step-father's name, Charles Leo Juvet. [11] Madge may have married (and divorced) someone from the Shanghai-based Juvet Swiss watch family, at some point between divorcing Henry Goldbert in the early '30s and marrying John (Ian) MacAulay in the mid-'40s. I still think Henry Goldbert is the father, and that Henry Wyngarde is fictional, but happy to be proved wrong. Also, PWAS now gives 1928 as PW's DOB, and has removed the 1937 date and scan of the passport showing it. Theheartof (talk) 11:24, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Another tidbit of information for the genealogists: Henry Goldbert's parents were Marco and Rosa Goldbert (née Klivger),[12] and there are several mentions in the Singapore newspaper archives of a Rosa Goldbert being the proprietor of the "Singapore Hotel" in the first decade of the 20th century.[13] Muzilon (talk) 09:01, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I have edited the reference to being Louis Jouvet's nephew, so it now cites Wyngarde's own account, not The Times. There are a couple of fascinating family trees on Ancestry, with information about the extended Goldbert/Ahin families. Worth exploring if you are a Peter Wyngarde "truther"! Theheartof (talk) 09:14, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I've had a look at The Times of 2 August 1954, and while it does indeed review Leocadia (page 9, column 2), there is no text even remotely matching that in the clipping attributed to the newspaper by Hellfire Hall. I suspect that it may actually be from the appropriate issue of the Radio Times, given that according to the BBC Genome page images, there was an accompanying article. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:43, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

My mistake - the Radio Times page with the article is available, but it doesn't contain the purported text. A check of the British Library's Newspaper Archive also does not produce any match. Nick Cooper (talk) 10:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Inspiration for Austin Powers

Article says that "Mike Myers credited Wyngarde with inspiring the character Austin Powers", citing an obituary, but the obituary in question took that fact (and many others) from the article and the citation was then retro-fitted. It seems pretty clear that Jason King was one inspiration for the character, but surely not *the* inspiration. And has Myers really has ever said so? Theheartof (talk) 12:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Place of birth in Infobox

There seems to have been a minor edit war over whether the "birthplace" in the Infobox should say Singapore or France. As his country of birth is disputed (although Singapore seems to be more likely candidate), should that detail simply be omitted from the infobox? —Muzilon (talk) 02:37, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Good idea I think. I have done that edit. Theheartof (talk) 11:06, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Edits of 29 June

The text below was added to the article by TheWoolpack today, and has now been moved here for further discussion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

It was wrongly stated on this page some months ago that Peter Wyngarde had been arrested and charged for importuning at Kennedy Gardens, Birmingham in 1974. The origin of this claim had been 'Crime Through The Ages: The Black Museum', a 2003 publication by Stephen Richards. It has latterly been discovered that the author of this book was in error and that the contributor responsible for repeating this unreliable information here had failed to carry out the necessary checks befitting such a consequential statement. It is now understood that much pain, anger and embarrassment was caused to Mr Wyngarde by this appalling inaccuracy prior to his death. While this wholly inaccurate paragraph has since been withdrawn it had, unfortunately, already been picked up by the British press and subsequently republished by bloggers and those frequenting online forums, which is continuing to cause unimaginable upset to those people closest to Mr Wyngarde and who still morn him. This is of sincere and deep regret.

2020 biography

I know there has been some argy-bargy here with (and about) the author Tina Wyngarde-Hopkins, but her biography of Wyngarde is due later this month and it is apparently highly detailed about his early life and his career. I understand it cites public and private sources that the author intends to make available online for the avoidance of doubt. As such, it will hopefully be useful as a source for this Page, bearing in mind all the usual protocol and the author's previous. I will be ordering it anyway, and reading it with an open mind. Theheartof (talk) 11:31, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Browsing through the book, there are some interesting details. The book acknowledges Wyngarde was born Cyril Louis Goldbert on 28 August 1928, the son of Henry Goldbert (merchant navy officer of Ukranian-British descent), and Marcheritta Ahin. No mention of the "son of Henry Wyngarde, British diplomat" story, which is still on the appreciation society website.[14] Henry and Marcheritta Goldbert are said to have met and married in Singapore, although Wyngarde's place of birth is still given as Marseilles, France. Marcheritta Ahin's second husband was Charles Juvet [sic], and Louis Jouvet is said to have become Wyngarde's "uncle" via this marriage. I will carry on reading... Muzilon (talk) 21:31, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Doesn't this edit contravene guidance over WP:OR? If there are conflicting sources, we should simply say there are conflicting sources, and leave it to the reader to judge which is "false". The last sentence seems unnecessary to me. On a general point, can we merge some of the single-sentence paragraphs? I know the article is being actively edited by those with access to new sources, so I'm holding off making any edits myself. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:39, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

It seems nearly everything is "conflicting source" as far as Wyngarde's early life is concerned. :) Another example: the WP article says his father was Jewish, apparently because of his surname (Goldbert). The biography says both parents were Catholic. Muzilon (talk) 23:37, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Saying Henry Goldbert was Jewish simply because it's a "Jewish name" is pretty dodgy. He may well have been born Jewish, or be of Jewish decent, but if verifiable sources identify him as RC, that's what we should go with. Nick Cooper (talk) 14:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

An IP editor has just added a couple of Jewish-related categories to the article, citing the Jewish Chronicle.[15] Mind you, I suspect the JC writer was just quoting Wikipedia in a circular manner... Muzilon (talk) 03:00, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for my copy of the new book to arrive, but I think that in general we should be very cautious on relying on it unless we can verify its own source material. The misattribution above of the Jouvet-related news cutting to The Times is a case in point. Nick Cooper (talk) 14:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I've no objection to mentioning the new book, but I'll continue to remove contributions that seem to promote its sales as WP:SPAM. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:48, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Leaving aside the claims made in the book about Wyngarde's personal life, the assertions in its pages that Laurence Olivier wanted him to appear at the National Theatre but was overruled by Peter Hall, that the Monty Python team wanted him to appear in Monty Python's Flying Circus, that producer Peter Rogers wanted him to play the young hero role in the Carry On films, and that he was considered as artistic director of the Chichester Festival Theatre are all extremely unlikely, and not verified anywhere else.Dolmance (talk) 10:25, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the questions Dolmance raises about the Monty Python team wanting Wyngarde to appear in Monty Python's Flying Circus, that producer Peter Rogers wanted him to play the young hero role in the Carry On films, and that he was considered as artistic director of the Chichester Festival Theatre not being verified elsewhere: Isn't there a first time for something to be published? Say. for instance, another book had published 20 years ago which carried the Monty Python story for the very first time. There would be no verification then. Then the 2020 biog repeats the claim two decades later. Are you suggesting that you'd accept what the second author was saying more readily? Just because something is repeated doesn't make it true, nor does stating something for the first time make it untrue. Someone has to be the first, surely. TheWoolpack (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2022 (UTC)