Talk:Onside kick

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Cleanup[edit]

this article is a mess. why not separate canadian and american rules under different headings?

Why not? Simple: because they originate in common, and have diverged in only some respects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.179.3.43 (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Something else that's bothersome is the clear-as-mud explanation about the conditions under which the onside kick is "fair game" for both teams in American football. This play is typically going to occur only when the kicking team has just scored and there is little time left on the clock and they need another score to overtake and win. They will try to kick it short, "blooping" it, and hope to recover it. They do not have to wait for a defender to touch it, they can try to grab it on the fly, like a jump ball in basketball. The only requirement is that the kick has to go 10 yards before a kicking team member can touch it. Wahkeenah 04:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, there is another requirement. While it's not absolutely required that the ball hit the ground, the kicking team is not allowed to interfere with an attempt by a member of the receiving team to catch it. That's another reason why most teams kick it so that it hits the ground, to prevent the possibility of that penalty.
  - Not in the NFL. [1] Wahkeenah 01:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yes in the NFL. A player may call for a fair catch, at which point it becomes a 15 yard penalty to intefere with the fair catch. That is why teams hit it off the ground. [2] See also this Q&A session here: [3] as well as discussions elsewhere [4] and [5] In the CFL, where the fair catch does not exist, there is still the rule of no interference with the receiving team attemping to catch after punts, though not kickoffs.
    - Also, the online NFL Digest of Rules is not the official Rulebook. See here [6] - "Mike Pereira, the NFL's director of officiating, told the San Francisco Chronicle on Tuesday that the game's officials failed to apply Rule 10, Section 1, Article 4, which says that on that type of an onside kick, the receiving team must be given the chance to catch the ball if the ball does not touch the ground."
The link the 23% success ratio on nfl.com is broken, probably since they re-did the site. I can't find that number anywhere, and footballoutsiders.com looked at some numbers and came up with 15%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pope (talk • contribs) 20:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No discussion of "surprise" onside kicks ... which are much more successful (statistically) although I don't have the statistics. An explanation of those would be nice, as would the success breakdown for surprise/non-surprise. 66.67.121.171 01:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)SN14534[reply]

No clue[edit]

I'm an football fan wit an intermediate understanding of the rules of the game. I simply have no clue what this article is talking about! Could someone with more football knowledge please reformat this article to make it more clear? This is very confusing as it currently stands! A few more specific comments: How does an onside kick differ from a regular kick off? Why doesn't the receiving team simply decline to touch the ball and take possesion wherever the ball comes to rest?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.184.251 (talk) 05:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not that the other authors need more football knowledge, but that you need more.

An onside kick used to kick off differs from a regular one in that it's an attempt to maximize or at least increase the chance of recovery of the ball by team A/K, i.e. the kicking team, at the likely sacrifice of field position. The NFL has, or recently has had, additional provisions which are relatively new concerning attempted onside kicks that go out of bounds, and at least for a while it was an official's judgement call as to whether a kickoff was such an attempt; other major football codes make no such distinction.

The receiving team (team B/R) doesn't simply decline to touch the ball at a kickoff or other free kick (except in the NFL for the past ~25 yrs. a free kick from a fair catch) because their touching the ball on their side of the neutral zone is not a requirement for team A/K's legal recovery and keeping of the ball. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.179.3.43 (talk) 05:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I still think this is unclear. What the article should make clear (and I believe doesn't) is why does the kicking team get possession of the ball after recovering an "onside kick", but when recovering a "normal" kick off, the possession still goes to the receiving team? What is different about an "onside" kick that allows the kicking team to recover the ball? There are plenty of times when the ball goes more than ten yards, touches the ground and then is touched by the kicking team, but the act of touching the ball by the kicking team, merely kills the ball and gives possession to the receiving team, rather than allowing the kicking team to recover the ball. I think the article needs to make the difference between these two scenarios clear. Paddyslacker (talk) 08:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, think this article is unclear. The four bullets in the "Modern American football usage" section that describe the conditions required for an onside kick describe ANY legal kick, even one kicked all the way downfield. There should be a fifth bullet there, saying that the kick needs to be level with or behind the kicker in order for the kicking team to gain possession without it first being muffed by the receiving team. (Isn't that what makes it "onside?") And if that's not the distinction, what is?

And please don't say it's my knowledge of football that is inadequate, not the article, as a commenter above did. A Wikipedia article is supposed to provide knowledge, not assume it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realbrick (talk • contribs) 00:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kickoffs as live balls[edit]

Deleted an erroneous portion of the article. The portion I deleted confused kickoffs with punts. The punting team cannot catch a punt and retain possession unless a member of the receiving team touches the ball. If no member of the receiving team touches the ball and a member of the punting team touches it, the play is dead and the receiving team takes possession at that spot. This apparently is what the sentence I deleted refers to. However, a kickoff is a live ball, and either team can catch it and retain possession. There is no requirement for a member of the receiving team to touch the ball first in order for the kicking team to retain possession. This happened early in the recent BCS Champ. Game, when Texas kicked off after its first field goal and retain possession of the ball when a Texas player fielded the kickoff after Alabama inexplicably failed to do so. The restrictions here are that 1) the kicking team can't advance the ball if they field it and 2) no player on the kicking team may field the ball within 10 yards of the kickoff line. This also answers the question above. The only "distinction" of the onside kick is that is a kickoff kicked in such away that the kicking team has a better chance to field the ball. Vidor (talk) 21:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually if a member of the kicking team touches the ball on a punt and it does not stop the receiving team can still return it and the worst case scenario for the return team at that point is that they whet it at the sport where it was touched by the kicking team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:187:8401:BDA0:FD2B:9ADA:980B:E226 (talk) 23:59, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

New summary[edit]

Last week, I rewrote the Intro of this article to better explain why someone would try an onside kick and to describe, with deliberate brevity, what had to happen for it to succeed. Two IPs that seem like different people added that the ball must travel 10 yards. I have reverted them, noting in the first case that a complete list of constraints is listed at the start of Section 2. Is the ten-yard clause so important as to need stating in the Intro? Does doing so invite other rules to be brought forward until the summary ceases to be a summary? Spike-from-NH (talk) 14:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The requirement that the receiving team touch the ball is not correct. It's actually an exception to the rule. The ball becomes live for all teams after 10 yards. That should be in the summary. If the ball travels less than 10 yards the kicking team can't touch it. The exception is if the receiving team touches it first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.129.51.165 (talk) 20:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; I have simplified the summary to remove the statement that the receiving team is required to touch the ball. Again, the complete rule is set out in Section 2. I do not think that the 10-yard figure belongs in the summary. Spike-from-NH (talk) 14:59, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]