Talk:Oney Judge

Reason why info was deleted

The following was added:

); Drunk History Volume 3 by Derek Waters.she die from minior surgerys.

Such is historically inaccurate. For this reason it was deleted. Judge's artice & numerous others dealing w/ the topic of slavery have been defaced recently. As usual, it was posted by someone w/ no name "69.114.143.65", in this case. To the anonymous wrtier, I remind that Wikipedia's focus is a scholarly one, not a place for games. There are other sites for that.Ebanony (talk) 23:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's clear up some facts and why 'Drunk Histories' on Oney Judge should not be here:

1) this is an inaccurate retelling of events that didn't happen as claimed

2) this trivalises slavery & being a refugee on the run for 50 years by making jokes out of it

Now as far as including references on Ms Judge, select from those that present historical information that is 1) accurate and 2) does not one that makes a joke out of being a runaway slave. Ebanony (talk) 03:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I respect your principled stand. As someone who would like to see Oney Judge become a household name, the factual errors, profanity and irreverence of the Drunk History Volume 3 video made me cringe at first (and still do to some extent). But reading the comments of the people on YouTube who had never heard of her or her story changed my mind about the appropriateness of linking it to this Wikipedia page. The video ain't "Art" in my book, but it is a creative expression, a reaction to learning the story of her escape and wanting to share that story. However crude, I think the motives behind it are sincere. Perhaps it will inspire future videos that are more accurate and respectful, but even if they're not, they also will reach new people. I'd vote to list it among the works inspired by Oney Judge's life story.

P.S. I am a big fan of your posts. BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 23:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Someone like Ms Judge escaping slavery & living a really tough life in constant fear of recapture wasn't something to joke about, but maybe some good can come from the video. You know, I was thinking it would be easy to post it under Legacy or External Links and simply put a small note saying that it's a creative expression (or something like that), and not based entirely on historical data. At least then there's a reference to it, and people would also know that's it's not a documentary. I agree that people should know about her, and if this helps people question and and learn something new, then ok with me. You can have the honours of posting it. And thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you're interested in these topics & working to improve them.Ebanony (talk) 12:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Defining dower slaves

Some problems with your recent Oney Judge post: Daniel Custis's Will lists 285 enslaved Africans. There isn't an exact count of how many of them became "dowers" because some are listed alongside the mother's name as "& children," rather than by name. These may have been infants/toddlers, but 85 is the minimum number of dowers allotted to Martha Washington.

Pennsylvania's 1780 Gradual Abolition Act exempted members of Congress. Once the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1788, there were 3 branches of the federal government. But the PA law still exempted only Congress, it didn't change.

To my knowledge, there is no evidence that Andrew Judge was Delphy's father, and no instance that documents her use of that last name.

Ed Lawler does a great job of explaining some of these issues here

I recognize your good intentions on this, and applaud them. But some of your edits create factual inaccuracies. BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 21:56, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your notes/corrections. I changed items on the dower slaves and Delphy to conform to your corrections (may have to be done for Washington's article, too, as it discusses dower slaves). Will review the other piece; I don't think I said that the PA law exempted more than Congress. Will clarify it.Parkwells (talk) 22:02, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

What evidence do you have that Jefferson rotated John Hemings in and out of Pennsylvania? What evidence do you have that Nancy and Phillis Jack were Jack Staines's sisters? We have Oney Judge's accounts in the 2 interviews, and they are incredibly rare and important. But, absent corroborating evidence, they should be presented as accounts ("According to ..."). Sorry about the sermonizing. BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 22:58, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Glad you're checking. Have moved all the comments to this page as they may help other editors be more accurate. I must have confused Jefferson with Washington; did not find the documentation I thought I recalled. On the sisters, some editors seem to prefer not adding "According to.." when the material has a cite but your point makes sense. I put "According to Eva Gerson", as that is the cite for the material. You did not have "According to..." in the version before I started working on this. ff this is not what you intended, perhaps you could just edit it directly. Parkwells (talk) 13:28, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Please don't make things up

• The English indentured servant Andrew Judge could not have been Austin's father. Austin was born about 1757 in New Kent County, Virginia. Andrew Judge didn't come to America until the early 1770s (by which time Austin was a teenager).
• There is no evidence that Delphy was Andrew Judge's daughter. The estimated year of Delphy's birth is 1779. Andrew Judge completed his indenture at Mount Vernon years before this, and moved to Alexandria, Virginia.

Mixing fantasy with the facts does no one any good.

== BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 12:19, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

1807 Manumission of Delphy Judge, Oney's Sister

The article currently states: "Eliza Custis Law and her husband manumitted Delphy and her children in 1807, after they were already living with husband William Costin in Washington City." citing a manumission from the Washington, D.C., Archives, as cited by Wiencek. However, the date of manumission of Philadelphia Judge and her children is uncertain.

In May 2016 I received a copy of the 1807 manumission from the Washington, D.C. Archives. The 1807 document shows Thomas Law, husband of Eliza Custis, frees six members of the Costin family--sisters of William Costin--but not Philadelphia Judge or her children. So I am still searching for their manumissions.

The details on the 1807 manumission (also posted in the William Costin Wiki Talk page) as follows: May 5, 1807, Manumission from Thomas Law to Margaret Costin and Others, Washington, D.C., Archives, Liber R 17, folio 220-221 (old folio 288) (Six women freed: “Ex[ecuted] and Del[ivere]d Nancy Costin, their mother: …[for] ten cents current money to me in hand paid have released from slavery…Margaret Costin, aged nineteen years, Louisa Costin, aged seventeen years, Caroline Costin, aged fifteen years, Jemima Costin, aged twelve years, Mary Holmes, aged eight years, and Eleanor Holmes, aged six years.”)

"Nancy Costin" named in the 1807 manumission is really Ann Costin Holmes (the mother of William Costin) and these are her children. In 1802, Ann was freed. Henry Wiencek, An Imperfect God: George Washington, His Slaves and the Creation of America (New York, NY: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2003), p. 84 ("The question of Ann's legal status was resolved when, through a descendent of hers, I found a record of her manumission in 1802, carried out after Martha's death. Ann came into the possession of Martha's granddaughter Eliza Custis Law, whose husband arranged the manumission when Ann was in her forties. She was freed under her married name, Holmes, and the nickname Nancy." ).

.Bjhillis (talk) 16:37, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Oney Mentioned in WaPo today

Oney's name mentioned in Washington Post/Christian Science Monitor today in aftermath of Michelle Obama's DNC speech about slaves building the White House. Bjhillis (talk) 22:41, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Her name is ONA Judge, NOT "Oney" -- Change the Title

Can someone please explain why this article is titled by the diminutive name that her enslaver used? She was most likely given the name ONA out of love by her mother, and she gave her final interviews with the name ONA. Her main article should be titled ONA JUDGE and a search for Oney Judge should redirect to her proper name given at birth and death. People of African descent have long struggled for the basic respect of our given names in the United States. Give our forgotten Founding Mother the dignity that she was denied by the slaveowning Washingtons. Her name is ONA MARIA STAINES JUDGE. ONA JUDGE. --Robinlaverne (talk) 17:15, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

This seems sensible. Her name should be what she used. Tabbycatlove (talk) 11:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Use of the term “enslaved”

The proper use of the term “enslaved” is to refer to a person who was not a slave who has then been placed into the situation of being a slave. It is inherent in the “en-“ prefix. When referring to all slaves as being “enslaved” it is not just inaccurate, it becomes confusing because some individuals at certain times were in fact properly so termed, having been bought in, and brought from, Africa rather than born into slavery in America. Thus the latter, never having had a change in status, were not enslaved.

The use of the term in this fashion is apparently motivated by the fear that history might be insufficiently harsh on slave owners since most never enslaved anyone. They rather owned slaves that were born in that condition or had been actually previously enslaved and sold by other Africans. Why this fact would require a mangling of the language is not clear, but a scholarly serious article should avoid such trivializing linguistic revisionism. Persons who were slaves were not usually enslaved in the U.S. since the slave trade was abolished shortly after its founding. Unfortunately accuracy these days has become subservient to political correctness. Even the universities, which should know better, have seen a lamentable degradation in scholarly quality on matters such as these.

Perhaps Wiki could aspire to succeed where they are failing. I recommend this article be edited with that in mind. I would do so but it likely would be undone by an ill informed social justice Stalinist requiring history as ideology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sychonic (talk • contribs) 06:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)