Talk:Nikolai Bayev

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Armenian origins of N. Bayev?![edit]

Is there any third-party verifiable source stating that he was Armenian? Best, Konullu (talk) 22:00, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I also do not understand how an Astrakhan-born person went from being Nikolai Georgievich to being Nikoghayos Gevorkovich? Parishan (talk) 18:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There was and is a huge Armenian diaspora in Astrakhan. The form of Gevorkovich is used even by Russian authors, for example, Elena Murzina [1]. Ghd2 (talk) 14:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have yet to see an official document referring to him by the name of Nikoghayos. Every official paper in imperial Russia and USSR referred to him as Nikolai Georgiyevich. And Bayev is an Ossetian surname, btw. Grandmaster 20:36, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, there is other Bayevs of Armenian origin. For example, this Bayev Nikolay Kevorkovich, who seems to be his grandson [2]. Here is another Bayev of Armenian origin Vladimir Manukovich Bayev. Ghd2 (talk) 14:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's far from improbable that an Armenian from the Russian Empire could have the surname Bayev. In the early years of Soviet Armenia, many Russian Armenians were brought into the republic to establish its "national" institutions. They were, of course, born outside of Armenia (Yerevan's chief architect Alexander Tamanian was from Yekaterinodar) and often had Russian or Russified names which were rendered into Armenian (Alexander Spendiarov became Alexander Spendiaryan, for example). I do not read Russian and there is very little on Bayev in English-language sources. There is very little on him in Armenian-language sources (at least online) but the article (Հայ ճարտարապետների գործունեությունը Անդրկովկասում) used in the corresponding Armenian Wikipedia entry refers to him as an Armenian. Jackal 05:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is that it is modern day Armenian authors who refer to him by that name. However contemporary sources refer to him as Nikolai Georgiyevich Bayev. Also it is strange that with Armenized name and patronymic he would still have a Russified surname. Btw, Bayev is quite a popular Russian surname, and there are quite a few prominent Russians with that surname: [3] Also interesting that Russian encyclopedias list Bayev as a traditional Russian surname, with one theory deriving it from Turkic languages: [4] It is also popular in Ossetia, where many people have that surname, including former mayor of Vladikavkaz, etc. In any case, it would be good to find a reliable third party source about Bayev's ancestry. Grandmaster 10:36, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an official Russian source, the Russian Federal Archive Agency. It lists inter alia personal archives of Nikolai Georgiyevich Bayev, which are apparently kept in Yerevan: [5] But note the spelling of the name. Grandmaster 11:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, according to most sources, including the Russian archives, Bayev died in 1949, but this article claims that he died in 1952. Grandmaster 11:06, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you are going to determine ethnicity by surnames, things will get very complicated–especially when it comes to Armenians. We cannot rule out that Bayev was Armenian or even of mixed Armenian and/or Russian/Ossetian background. Does that Murzina article mention Armenian ancestry? Jackal 20:14, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not making any determination on the basis of the surname, just stating the fact that his surname is a typical Russian one. For example, in case with Ter-Mikelov it was clear even from his Russified surname that he was of Armenian ancestry. But in this case, like in any other here, what we need to make a definite statement about the ethnicity of a person is a reliable third party source. But that I mean a source that is preferably not connected to either Armenia or Azerbaijan. And the new account that edit wars and keeps changing the name of the person despite official sources not referring to that person by that name and makes claims on basis of unreliable sources needs to stop edit warring and engage in discussion at talk. This is an arbitration covered area. Grandmaster 21:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And what Murzina article? Grandmaster 22:05, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The one mentioned above by Ghd2. Jackal 01:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but where is a third party source about Armenian ancestry of this particular Bayev? As we saw from the above discussion, a person by surname of Bayev could be of various ethnic origins. But we need a reliable third party source to support the claims of this person's ethnicity. Grandmaster 20:44, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record: The source #2 is published in Moscow by a peer-reviewed journal that was approved by the Ministry of Culture of Russia is a WP:RS. Just because the writer has an "ian" in his last name doesn't make it unreliable. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That source is just a collection of speeches at a symposium, and the publication by the Russian Institute of Art History (not by Ministry) is not an endorsement of opinions by individual speakers. Normally such collections of individual presentations are done for every conference. There's one presentation there which mentions N.Bayev as an Armenian architect, but it never spells his name like it is done in this article, in fact, it does not even mention his first name, and the presenter is Mrs Gasparian from Yerevan construction and architecture university. It would be good no know if the view on Armenian ancestry of this person is shared by experts from outside of Armenia. Grandmaster 21:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't matter where she is from. It approval by a third-party entity like the Russian Institute of Art History is what counts. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:39, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is not an approval. The speakers at conferences may say various things, it does not mean that organizer endorses every view. While the reliability of a source is not determined by ethnicity, we can see that the view on Armenian ancestry of this architect is shared only in Armenia. That means that there's no general international consensus to consider this person to be of Armenian ancestry. It would be good to find contemporary Russian and Soviet sources about this person. The one that I quoted, Russian State Archives, spells the name of this person as Nikolai Georgiyevich, and it is the most reliable source out of all quoted so far, since it is third party, but the patronymic in the article was changed again. Grandmaster 21:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why should name name issue be a problem? There are many people that go by different names other than whats written on their official identification. Certain communities may use his name in different ways. His name goes by Nikoghayos in Armenian academic sources and therefore Nikoghayos is put there for reference. I also believe a separate section on this TP should open up for his name sake. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:13, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The name issue is very simple. What was he called in official documents? The Russian archives is the only official source so far, and it gives you the answer. As for the ethnicity, as I said above, it would be good to find a third party source, with no bias in this issue. Grandmaster 20:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article doesn't say Nikoghayos Bayev is his official name. It is another name he goes by a community which in this case happens to be the Armenian community. The ethnicity shall remain unless proven otherwise. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He definitely was not Gevorkovich. See how his patronymic is spelled in the Russian archives. Grandmaster 19:39, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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