Talk:Nick Adams (actor, born 1931)/Archive 1

Discussion of sources

By whom, exactly, was his homosexuality unacknowledged? Exploding Boy 08:31, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

I reverted unfounded statements and outright fabrication by an anonymous user who also has attempted similar distortions to the article on David Bret. Ted Wilkes 17:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My statements in the article are not "unfounded." For lists of famous gay people including Nick Adams, see, for instance, http://www.umsl.edu/~pope/famous.html or http://www.youthfirsttexas.org/famous_gay_people.html - User: 80.141.239.139

For Natalie Wood and the gay men in Hollywood, including Nick Adams, see Gavin Lambert, Natalie Wood: A Life.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0375410740/ref=sib_vae_pg_199/102-5978120-2064931?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=nick%20adams&p=S063&twc=10&checkSum=n8sgFjsI6jSyboZAQHaMbIefSki5R7oQPmVSC1x4o6w%3D#reader-page http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_308/recliminganactress.html http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_2004_March_16/ai_n6023733 - User:80.141.253.91

In Hollywood Gays, author Boze Hadleigh writes that the diminutive yet reputedly well-hung actor Nick Adams may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." See http://www.weekender.co.jp/new/021206/behind_the_scenes-021206.html - User: 80.141.191.66

It is also suggested that Adams's friend James Dean was gay. See http://www.q.co.za/2001/2002/09/20-pastout.html - User:80.141.239.139 Another internet source says:

The debate about Dean's sexuality rages passionately. He told a friend, "I've had my cock sucked by five of the biggest names in Hollywood...". He also claimed to have worked, with his friend Nick Adams, as a street hustler when he first arrived in Hollywood. When asked if he was gay, he replied, "Well, I'm certainly not going through life with one hand tied behind my back". See http://andrejkoymasky.com/liv/fam/biod1/dean2.html

This article has been placed on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Ted Wilkes 21:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See comments about Nick Adams and Elvis Presley on Talk:Elvis Presley and Talk:David Bret. Ted Wilkes 23:22, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please note that this ANONYMOUS user's only contributions to the Wikipedia are edits to Elvis Presley, David Bret and Nick Adams plus contraventions to Wikipedia official policy with repeated comments placed into Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. I have made a request for Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Ted Wilkes 20:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry. Adding some comment on such a page is not vandalism. But constantly deleting these comments, as you did, IS vandalism. - User:80.141.205.108

---

Mediation?

For Ed Poor, Wikipedia:Administrator and Mediation Committee member.

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. (hereinafter sometimes respectfully referred to as "it" or "its" or "they" because of unknown gender) has deliberately inserted misinformation into this Nick Adams article and this Talk page in order to support their disinformation campaign in the David Bret article so as to ultimately give credence to their misinformation and distortions in their target: the Elvis Presley article. In the Presley article USER: 80.141.etc.etc. refused to allow other attempts to edit their misinformation and reverted several Users 22 times including deleting the Automatic Section information (/* Relationships */) on the "Edit Summary" so that it might go undetected or raise a flag on the "Recent Changes" board. All this took place before I (User:Ted Wilkes got involved and who was then reverted by USER: 80.141.etc.etc. 25 more times.

Sorry. You are the only person saying that what I have contributed to the article is misinformation. Everybody can see that it is not misinformation as I have cited my sources. See above. – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

In the Nick Adams stub article I expanded it with basic biographical information plus the following statement:

• He married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children.

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. made edits to this single line by adding deliberate misinformation, an act that constitutes vandalism in accordance with Wikipedia:Vandalism.

Sorry. What's wrong with adding some additional facts, for example, that most people in Hollywood knew that Adams was gay. This is relevant information which has repeatedly been deleted by user Ted Wilkes. For sources proving this fact, see above. – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

Further, this user (here and in the other two connected articles) not only inserts fabrications but also makes edits and other sensible-appearing substitutions that too is described as vanadalism in Wikipedia:Vandalism. And, even when challenged, they repeatedly contravene Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines that requires a contributor to Wikipedia:Check your facts and to quote Wikipedia:Reliable sources.

You are the only person who thinks that this is vandalism. The fact is that there is an edit war going on and you are deeply involved in this war. – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

Note that the edits of USER: 80.141.etc.etc. detailed below show that when their deliberate fabrication is firmly reverted, they then reword it all the while continuing to use disinformation tactics. Reversing your own deliberate falsehood is an admission of vandalism.

Note that including additional information is not vandalism. You frequently deleted this information and I reinstalled it. – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

First edit by USER: 80.141.etc.etc.:

• 17:17, 1 Jun 2005 80.141.197.237 –
  • Though Adams married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children, he regularly appears in lists of famous gay people. Before he got into acting, Adams was known as a "Hollywood hustler" who had a reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town. Lesbian actress Natalie Wood says that she dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray. Elvis Presley too romanced young Nick. After his "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean The King is said to have seen Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams who was the roommate of Dean.

I (User:Ted Wilkes) reverted these fabricated assertions.

Note that I have included relevant additional information. See sources quoted above. – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. then reverted me. [1]. But, knowing they had been caught vandalizing an article, they reworded it slightly to remove the fabrication: "Lesbian actress Natalie Wood" TO state that "Actress Natalie Wood says that she dated gay men." However, even with the reversal of the falsehood, where is the Wikipedia:Reliable sources and supporting facts that she said she dated gay men? And, despite admitting he had lied about Natalie Wood being a lesbian, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. still kept their fabrication about Nick Adams and Elvis Presley in their text. This is the "wear them down" tactic that they have successfully used over and over with others who objected to false and unfounded claims on the Presley page, doing it so many times that the other users eventually gave up. Here is USER: 80.141.etc.etc. revised text:

• USER: 80.141.etc.etc. - revised text: 17:34, 1 Jun 2005 80.141.235.94 -
  • Though Adams married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children, he regularly appears in lists of famous gay people. Before he got into acting, Adams was known as a "Hollywood hustler" who had a reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town. Actress Natalie Wood says that she dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray. Elvis Presley too romanced young Nick. After his "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean The King is said to have seen Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams who was the roommate of Dean.

There are indeed some accusations that Natalie Wood may have been bisexual because of her contacts to many Hollywood gays, but this is only hearsay. Therefore I have revised the text. User:80.141.197.99

Note User:80.141.197.99's diversionary tactic in the words in the first line, an irrelevant sentence telling us they don't quote hearsay! The "revised text" was done after they were caught, and their revision was to remove their absolute falsehood from the article where they said: "Lesbian actress Natalie Wood says that she dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray." Ted Wilkes 11:04, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In his review of Gavin Lambert's Natalie Wood: A Life in The Advocate (2004), David Ehrenstein (author of Open secret: gay Hollywood, 1928-1998) writes, "And this in turn brings up the gay angle, for besides Nicholas Ray, Natalie Wood was the "Grace" to an army of Hollywood "Wills," including James Dean, Tab Hunter, Nick Adams, Scott Marlowe, and Raymond Burr. ... she ... preferring to do her part for gay history by supporting Mart Crowley in a manner that made it possible for him to write his seminal The Boys in the Band. He had planned to do something for her by adapting Dorothy Baker's novel about twin sisters. Cassandra at the Wedding, for the screen. But Hollywood wasn't ready for twin Natalie Woods--one of whom would have been a lesbian." – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

I (User:Ted Wilkes) reverted these continued fabricated assertions.

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. reverted me again but knowing they had to do something about the fabrications, they reworded it a second time to remove the fabrication: "Elvis Presley too romanced young Nick", changing it TO: "There is also the claim that Elvis Presley romanced young Nick." This is the second admission of a fabrication and the second act of Wikipedia:Vandalism. But once again USER: 80.141.etc.etc. doesn't tell us who it is that makes such a claim and continue with their "wear them down" tactic and keep most of the unfounded text. Here is their next revision:

• USER: 80.141.etc.etc. - revised text: (21:39, 1 Jun 2005 80.141.193.103) -
  • Though Adams married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children, he regularly appears in lists of famous gay people. Before he got into acting, Adams was known as a "Hollywood hustler" who had a reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town. Actress Natalie Wood frequently dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray. There is also the claim that Elvis Presley romanced young Nick. After his "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean The King is said to have seen Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams who was the roommate of Dean.

I (User:Ted Wilkes) reverted these continued fabricated assertions. After five reverts by USER: 80.141.etc.etc. I then posted the following notice into the article: Note: This article has now been placed in: Wikipedia:Requests for page protection.

As part of the tactics to turn the tables on anyone who reverts their fabrications and as a continuation of the "wear them down" tactic, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. comes to this Talk Page (and they did it elsewhere to others) and inserts meaningless comments and/or cites Internet articles that do not even come close to meeting Wikipedia:Reliable sources policy.

I have quoted several sources stating that Nick Adams was gay. Where are your sources which prove that Nick Adams wasn't gay? Another user has also asked at the beginning of this talk page, "By whom, exactly, was his homosexuality unacknowledged?" – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

They then revert the article repeatedly with the Edit Summary that says (See discussion) . Too, they don't identify the comments on the Talk Page as coming from them so that anyone trying to assess the information has no idea how many people are actually commenting against what the one identified user is saying about improper edits. As an example on Talk:David Bret, using the confusion they have created by lack of identity, they make it appear that reverting to their fabricated text is proper by asserting: "There are two independent statements that the other version of the article is much better."

Sorry. Everybody can see that I am the anonymous editor 80.141.xxx.xxx using a dynamic IP address. What's wrong with this fact? As for the two independent statements, see what administator DropDeadGorgias has written on the said discussion page. User:80.141.197.99 He says, "It seems to me that the old version of the page [i.e. the text I have written] is far less POV than this current page. 1) The old version mentions the controversy surrounding Bret's finding's well enough, and 2) why did the new editors remove a perfectly fine Guardian link? I support reversion to the old version." -- 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.203.14

Note too that not only does USER: 80.141.etc.etc. not quote reliable resources, but in the David Bret article [2] and then again on the Talk:David Bret page they stated about Presley:

• "that he was homosexual. Indeed, this accusation (by Bret's book) is proved by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, and by his platonic girlfriend Judy Spreckels."

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. reiterated this "proven fact" repeatedly including in the actual Presley article stating unequivocally that proof is in a book by Dee Presley called The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis. But before discussing the merits of "proof " from any such book by Dee Presley, we need first to Wikipedia:Check your facts and determine that such a book exists so that it can be examined for its veracity. So, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. can first provide the ISBN number for The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis, the publishing house name, and the dated this supposed book was published. Wikipedia articles do not assert that rumors by someone who reported she at some point in time told a tabloid she was writing such a book and the tabloid quoted supposed excerpts from the purported manuscript that was then passed around as being part of her "new book." But, with the ISBN number as External link, anyone can buy this supposed book if they want.

In my opinion, this is your first relevant contribution to this discussion page. I don't know whether this book has been published or not. All I know is that the Madison Entertainment Group, Inc., a subsidiary of Madison Group Associates, Inc., a now defunct company formerly based in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, once acquired the worldwide rights to "The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis Presley," a "very private and revealing" manuscript documenting "never-before-released accounts" of Elvis's life. So it is clear that a manuscript of the book exists. But I don't think that it is of much importance if you are right that the book has not yet been published, as the manuscript exists and seems to have circulated in many copies. More important is that it was written by Devada "Dee" Presley, Elvis' stepmother who lived at Graceland with Elvis for over ten years. There is a short summary of her accusations in an article written by Dee Presley for the National Enquirer. The new facts she presents have been discussed by other authors, for instance, Greil Marcus, in the book, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000).

As to the second part of the so-called "proof" from Judy Spreckels, see below the details on the "fraudulently doctored text" inserted by USER: 80.141.etc.etc.

The diversionary tactics of USER: 80.141.etc.etc. continued following my posting the notice Wikipedia:Requests for page protection with them going to that page and in contravention of Wikipedia policy, used the page to attack my credibility. As a result, I (User:Ted Wilkes) was the one blocked from editing and USER: 80.141.etc.etc., having been given a free license, immediately headed to the Elvis Presley article and added a great more misleading information to enhance their existing deception . When User:Equintan attempted to remove just a tiny portion of the misinformation, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. started the same reverting tactics again. A discouraged User:Equintan gave up trying to do what was right. Was it not Wikipedia co-founder User:Larry Sanger who has publicly stated: [3] "if you react strongly to trolling, that reflects poorly on you, not (necessarily) on the troll. If you attempt to take trolls to task or demand that something be done about constant disruption by trollish behavior, the other list members will cry "censorship," attack you, and even come to the defense of the troll."

Did you read what I have written on the related discussion page? – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

While Mr. Sanger has a point, one of the problems in dealing with people such as USER: 80.141.etc.etc. is that they overpower the talk page to the point where any other Wiki User trying to bring peace cannot be expected to read and analyze the massive writings and as such cannot deal with the issue properly.

On just this small Nick Adams article alone, after inserting their fabrications, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. did 14 more reverts. Note that their tactics succeeded in having the page protected with their fabrications and unfounded information still in place. This is how the article section currently reads as a result of the last edit by : User: 80.141.221.141. I have inserted my comments in Italics.

• Though Adams married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children, he regularly appears in lists of famous gay people. -- What lists? Such a statement requires reliable sources acceptable to an Encyclopedia and supported by documented facts?

For such lists including Nick Adams, see, for instance, http://www.umsl.edu/~pope/famous.html or http://www.youthfirsttexas.org/famous_gay_people.html – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

• -- Before he got into acting, Adams was known as a "Hollywood hustler" who had a reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town. -- Who specifically knew him as a Hollywood Huster and what reliable source provides proof that he was so labelled? Please explain what is meant by "pieces" and how this terminology is 1) relevant to the biography and 2) is acceptable language in Wikipedia.

Nick Adams is mentioned in Boze Hadleigh's book Hollywood Gays. The author writes that the diminutive yet reputedly well-hung actor Nick Adams may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." I would agree to rewrite the passage relating to Adams's "reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town". However, this information is taken from an internet source announcing the birthday of Adams. – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

• -- Actress Natalie Wood frequently dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray. -- Provide proof from credible sources acceptable for an Encyclopedia that these were romantic dates and not just a friend she worked on a film with and that she spent free time with during film production and proof that the men she dated romantically were "Gay".

In his review of Natalie Wood: A Life, Brandon Judell writes, "Wood's insecurities led her later to date bisexual and gay men including director Nicholas Ray and actor Nick Adams." See http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_308/recliminganactress.html – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

• -- There is also the claim that Elvis Presley romanced young Nick. -- What credible source made this claim and what proof did that source provide? -- After his "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean The King is said to have seen Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams who was the roommate of Dean. -- Who said it? And, are they a credible source and what proof was provided that The King (assume this refers to Elvis Presley) had a "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean and that "The King" had an affair with Adams.

This has been written by David Bret in his book, Elvis: The Hollywood Years, an author you are constantly casting aspersions on. See Talk:David Bret

Beyond all of the above, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. fabricated information and inserted "fraudulently doctored text" into the David Bret article as follows:

• Revision to David Bret article [4] as of 21:14, 26 Apr 2005 80.141.206.211
  • Judy Spreckels, who was like a sister to Elvis, a companion, confidante and keeper of secrets in the early days of his career, also remembers going out with Elvis and his boyfriend Nick Adams.

• Please note what the article actually states as to what Ms. Speckels said on the website:
  • [5] - "In Los Angeles, where Elvis made movies, Judy remembers going out on a Sunday with him and his friend, actor Nick Adams."

• (More comments on the disnformation in the Elvis Presley article by USER: 80.141.etc.etc. to follow shortly with User:Ted Wilkes comments to be placed on the Presley talk page.)

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. represents the most dangerous sort of vandal whose actions provide Encyclopedia Britannica and other legitimate information sources with the precise ammunition needed to condemn Wikipedia as unreliable and show its inability to monitor itself properly. They have wasted the time honorable contributors would normally devote to creating good articles and doing valuable editing. These people can't get a legitimate platform anywhere else so they come to Wikipedia to push their agenda. They are here on a mission, and as seen on this small article they will make dozens of reverts and write endless words on the talk page as well as con others into believing that they are legitimate.

Signed and certified as factual: Ted Wilkes 00:13, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: USER: 80.141.etc.etc. continues with their tactics "wear them down" tactics by masive insertions of text into my statement of facts which is nothing but ramblings and with zero defense of their vandalism and "fraudulently doctored text". Note that like before, when caught in a lie, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. changed their fabricated text about Dee Presley's book on the David Bret talk page that they asserted had the title The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis. They stated that the book was "proof":

From: Talk:David Bret :

• this accusation is proved by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, and by his platonic girlfriend Judy Spreckels. In her book The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis Dee Presley says that Elvis had sexual encounters with men and that he had an affair with Nick Adams.

After I (User:Ted Wilkes) called them on their fraud by asking for the ISBN number, they admit it doesn't exist but have now "introduced" a new "proof" they call a manuscript. Give me a break!

Sorry. I didn't know that the book may not yet have been published, as it was mentioned in several articles and in Greil Marcus's book, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000). Here is the source which proves that a manuscript written by Dee Presley exists: http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?DOCID=1G1:16884628 I think it is of little importance whether the book has been published or not. More important is that most Elvis fan clubs condemned the accusations to be found in it, although it was written by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley. See also Talk:Elvis Presley. To my mind, it is to be supposed that Ted Wilkes may be one of those people writing in the vein of the worldwide Elvis industry which has a tendency toward supporting only a 'favorable' view of Elvis and therefore tries to suppress the opinion that Elvis may have been bisexual or gay. This would explain why he is constantly accusing me of "vandalism", "deliberate misinformation", "outright fabrication", etc. -- 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.179.168

Please note, I will refrain from further comments on this page pending insertion of my other facts on this matter on the David Bret and Elvis Presley talk pages and then will wait for the review by the Wikipedia:Mediators. Ted Wilkes 15:35, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't help but insert another comment even though it aids their "wear them down" and overwhelm them with writings tactic. What we have here is another admission of a lie by Anonymous' who knew all along no book was ever published and after being caught fabricates a second lie that a maunscript says what he claimed was in a book. The link our anonymous user inserted to prove such a manuscript exists is a great joke. Look at it! Just how stupid does this person think Wikipedians are? This link to the PR Newswire is a 1995 story. In the ten years since, no such book was ever published and its contents are unknown. 99.9% of all the Elvis books claim astonishing new information never before revealed. Yeah, right. But User:80.141.179.168 first inserted his outright falsehood that the book existed and that it was proof Elvis was gay. Caught in their lie, they then asserted this so-called manuscript was proof. And now they claim that book publishers revealed the content to Elvis fans before they published it? What utter nonsense. Repeated lies and distortions go nowhere at Wikipedia, they just dig a deeper hole. Ted Wilkes 17:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry. Did you mention that there are newspaper articles summarizing the new facts included in Dee Presley's book? The contents of the manuscript are well known and the details were even discussed by several members of the world wide Elvis fan clubs. Information from the manuscript was also used for Greil Marcus's book, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000). David S. Wall has also written an article in which he states that Dee Presley "wrote a supposedly whistle blowing account of Elvis’s last years" and that "The fan clubs refused to endorse the book and condemned it in their editorials". So it is of little importance whether the book has been published or not. You cannot deny that the manuscript exists and its content is known. Don't call me a liar! 80.141.193.106 18:35, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nick, do you still want my help? If so, let me know. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:13, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Ed Poor: Your help is greatly appreciated and I look forward to your report on the matter. Ted Wilkes 15:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

disambig tag

{{disambig}} Can I remove it? It's not a disambiguation page after all. -- User:Docu

Family stats

- the names of his children: Allyson Lee Adams, born in 1960, and Jeb Stewart Adams, 1962.

- his divorce from actress Carol Nugent. Adams won the case, since it was proved that his wife had an affair with another man.

- that Adams lived a reckless life and was arrested for speeding nine times in one year. He was placed on probation, but the larger studios ignored the young actor.

Removed tag

I've tried to resolve this by presenting the information in a more encyclopedic manner. Never mind the controversy, let readers and viewers of his movies decide as they wish. Wyss 29 June 2005 10:21 (UTC)

Stabilizing?

I'm pleased with the article now and only tweaked the most recent edits for syntax and pitchy adjectives (understandable when someone edits with strong belief in a PoV, but not encyclopedic). There is no documented evidence Nick Adams was gay (but mentioning kiss-and-tell gossip books is acceptable as long as the context is clear). I must say that the logic of the Natalie Wood assertion is amazingly weak... should one therefore infer that any male she hung out with was gay? (I only put it that way to make a point) The Elvis rumour is ok to note as a rumour, the "Hollywood hustler"/"pool hustler" thing works as interesting trivia and regardless of one's interpretation, communicates a bit of insight into his character. Wyss 30 June 2005 04:42 (UTC)

Sorry, the book Hollywood Gays (mentioned in the article) which states that Adams was gay is based on interviews with gay Hollywood stars. So it is based on primary sources. I don't think that the Natalie Wood assertion is amazingly weak, as she was primarily interested in Hollywood's gay scene. 80.141.219.175 30 June 2005 22:39 (UTC)

Sorry, none of your edits are supported by documented evidence cited in peer-reviewed, secondary sources (please see the next section). Wyss 1 July 2005 10:19 (UTC)

Gavin Lambert, a reputed biographer who also coedited the film magazine Sequence with Lindsay Anderson, edited Sight and Sound and wrote film criticism for The Sunday Times and The Guardian, has known Nathalie Wood and Robert Wagner for 40 years. His book, Natalie Wood: A Life includes interviews with the people who knew Wood best, for instance, Robert Wagner, Warren Beatty, Paul Mazursky, and Leslie Caron. The author writes about the sexual dalliances of the actors and their friends, both gay and straight, and clearly says that Wood frequently dated gay men in Hollywood including director Nicholas Ray and actors Nick Adams, Raymond Burr, James Dean, Tab Hunter and Scott Marlowe. See also http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0375410740/ref=sib_vae_pg_199/102-5978120-2064931?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=nick%20adams&p=S063&twc=10&checkSum=n8sgFjsI6jSyboZAQHaMbIefSki5R7oQPmVSC1x4o6w%3D#reader-page There are further statements by biographer David Bret and Elvis Presley's stepmother, Dee Presley, that Elvis had an affair with Nick Adams. As several other sources prove, the whole gay scene of Hollywood seems to have known that Nick Adams was gay. Therefore, I have reinstated a revised version of the deleted passage. 80.141.214.158 1 July 2005 22:32 (UTC)

Peer review required

• Wikipedia doesn't build articles from primary sources, but from peer reviewed secondary sources: Hollywood Gays is a secondary source lacking in scholarly Peer review. Most reviewers bluntly accuse Hadleigh of inventing much of his material and the book is not accepted as credible history. Citations from it don't qualify for this article.

Are you sure? Here are some reviews of Hadleigh's book:

"A series of 10 interviews with dramatic actors, romantic heros, comedians, and performers, three of whom died of AIDS; all prominent in the Hollywood/entertainment scene. The interviews are by turns frank, and depending on the comfort level of the interviewee, evasive and suggestive. Prominent features of the interviews include Hollywood's various constructions of masculinity, efforts to mask gay realities, studio response to homosexuality, and discussion of gay relationships. Many interviews include commentary on Hollywood figures not themselves in this collection. Each interview is preceded by a biographical sketch including relationship information and usually comments by friends and acquaintances. Index to persons mentioned in the interviews concludes the work." (Gays and Lesbians: Reference and Bibliographical Resources Annotated")

That's not a review, that's an ad. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)

Are you sure? See http://faculty.washington.edu/alvin/gayref.htm 80.141.210.38 2 July 2005 11:14 (UTC)

Some university websites will publish any GLBT book blurb (and some publishers know this). Wyss 2 July 2005 18:56 (UTC)

You should know the differences between ads and bibliographical annotations. 80.141.222.113

"In this collection of interviews, each preceded by a chatty introduction, that Hadleigh has conducted over the years with 10 Hollywood stars, the author continues his probing of the ever-popular topic of the sexual proclivities of Hollywood actors. There's nothing very surprising about his choice of subjects--Paul Lynde, Liberace, Randolph Scott, et al.--all of whom, conveniently for legal purposes, are deceased. And though hearing about these stars in their own words often proves entertaining, most of the book's gay readership will find little here they haven't heard before. Two exceptions are the touching interview with producer David Lewis, who talks freely about his longtime companion, James Whale (director of the classic 1931 Frankenstein and of The Invisible Man), who committed suicide in 1957; and the talk with William Haines, whose career was destroyed by Louis B. Mayer after he was caught with another man in his cot at a YMCA. The book's style is suitably straightforward, though Hadleigh's banter often verges on the cute or leering. Readers will find much cocktail-party repartee here and will relish the references to other stars of dubious sexual orientation." (Publishers Weekly)

Hadleigh's been accused of making up most of those "interviews".Wyss 2 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)

Where is the reviewer accusing the author of making up most of those interviews? 80.141.210.38 2 July 2005 11:14 (UTC)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1569800839/ref=pd_sxp_f/103-8581889-7388617 for starters. Wyss 2 July 2005 18:56 (UTC)

So this is what you call a peer-reviewed source? I am amused. 80.141.220.134 2 July 2005 22:42 (UTC)

• You're trying to confuse the issue by using false logic again. It's your source that's lacking in credibility, and this Google search link is a quick way to demonstrate that. Wyss 2 July 2005 22:48 (UTC)

Sorry. This is what you and some fans of the Hollywood stars think who still believe that their idols were 100% heterosexual and refuse to accept what has been said by the stars themselves. 80.141.222.113 3 July 2005 14:23 (UTC)

"Hadleigh ... seeks to provide firsthand reports. An entertainment journalist since the 1960s, he conducted volumes of off-the-record interviews with celebrities reputed to be gay or bisexual such as Cary Grant, Paul Lynde, and Anthony Perkins, as well as less well-remembered actors like Randolph Scott and William Haines. In these interviews, often given only with the understanding that they would not be published during the star's life, Hadleigh attempts to get normally secretive actors to speak about their sexual lives. .... Cary Grant and Anthony Perkins ... proffer revelations about co-workers and peers. Like his earlier volumes Conversations with My Elders (St. Martin's, 1988) and Lesbians in Hollywood (Baricade, 1994), Hadleigh's work is somewhat suspect. He claims that for most of these interviews, he was not allowed to tape record or take notes, and frequently the questions seem stiltedly reconstructed. Still, the interviews are highly entertaining and provide an important, mostly undocumented view of the film industry's social history. Recommended for both general readers looking for dish and scholars of gay history and film studies." (Library Journal)

"Boze Hadleigh has been publishing gossipy books about gay celebrity and cinema for nearly two decades. Two of his best-known books, Hollywood Gays and Hollywood Lesbians are collections of his interviews with gay and bisexual stars in which they basically out themselves and others in their circle. Some have questioned the accuracy of his printed transcripts, but there's no denying they're impossible to put down..." (Gay & Lesbian Review Worldwide)

Note that this one questions the veracity of the interviews. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)

The reviewer only says that some have questioned the accuracy of the interviews. This means that many others think that Hadleigh's interviews are accurate. 80.141.210.38 2 July 2005 11:14 (UTC)

No, it doesn't mean that (one can't invert the statement). Wyss 2 July 2005 18:56 (UTC)

Surely you can invert the statement. Otherwise the reviewer would have said that most readers have questioned the accurcy of the printed transcript. It is understandable that some fans refuse to accept the truth. 80.141.222.113 3 July 2005 14:23 (UTC)

Last not least, here is an excerpt from the book: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/7537/gay.htm

80.141.188.51 2 July 2005 01:55 (UTC)

Significantly, User:Wyss has again deleted my contributions to the articles on Nick Adams and Natalie Wood without discussing the additional sources I have quoted. His only argument seems to be that reviews in Publishers Weekly, the Library Journal and other journals are no peer-reviewed sources and not in accordance with WP policy. 80.141.226.214 2 July 2005 09:43 (UTC)

Significantly? Sigh. The issue here is Hollywood Gays, which is not a reliable source of anything. Those "reviews" are blurbs. The actual reviews are uniformly horrid. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)

So you think that reviews in Publishers Weekly or the Library Journal are blurbs? Very interesting indeed. 80.141.210.38 2 July 2005 11:14 (UTC)

They're blurbs, some work, some don't. Wyss 2 July 2005 18:56 (UTC)

Sorry. Reviews published in reputed journals are not blurbs. 80.141.222.113 3 July 2005 14:23 (UTC)

Therefore, I have deleted all content in the article derived from non-peer reviewed publications, in accordance with WP policy.

Because widespread rumours do affect the legacy of a public figure, I have retained a summary of them as such in a Rumours section.

None of this has anything to do with "defending" Adams. For all I know, rumours of gay liaisons with Elvis Presley may have generated more interest in his filmed work and had a positive effect on the value of his estate, which could be financially advantageous to his children, whom he obviously cared about. My posts here only relate to writing the article according to WP policy and encyclopedic principles. Wyss 1 July 2005 08:07 (UTC)

To clarify, I looked into the source for that Elvis rumour. It arose from a single story in the Globe tabloid, which is not a peer-reviewed historical publication. Wyss 1 July 2005 09:03 (UTC)

The source for the Elvis rumour is David Bret's book, Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2002). The Globe article only published some details from this book.

Thanks for clarifying that. Bret has a reputation for sloppy history, lack of scholarship, being obsessed with sexual topics (almost to the exclusion of other aspects of his subjects' careers and lives) and lastly, making up interviews to sell tabloid-style books to the downmarket. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:33 (UTC)

What you are doing is casting aspersions on David Bret, the author of this biography. The fact is that the claims I have quoted could be found in the book. 80.141.222.113 3 July 2005 14:23 (UTC)

I've put some time into researching this and have found zero documented evidence to even thinly support any assertion under WP standards that Mr Adams was a homosexual, or ever demonstrated such behavior. Furthermore, all of the edits on this subject in the article seem to have been made by a single persistent anon editor. For these reasons I have deleted all references to the rumours, have placed the article on my watchlist, and will routinely delete any such references unless documented evidence cited by peer-reviewed sources emerges. Wyss 1 July 2005 09:46 (UTC)

Peer reviewed? How many peer reviewed sources are there for minor Hollywood actors? The only sources that I know of that are "peer reviewed" are academic journals and books. Wikipedia does not require peer reviewed sources. Wikipedia is dedicated to fairly summarizing with a neutral point of view whatever verifiable sources are available. Certainly unpublished manuscripts do not qualify. But printed books that are in libraries or on the internet are verifiable, secondary sources, whether peer-reviewed or not. See Wikipedia:sources. Cheers, -Willmcw July 1, 2005 10:20 (UTC)

You clearly haven't read that link yourself. Why didn't you bother to check it? Maybe because you're so busy as a new Wikipedia:Admin? Anyway the book cited by the anon has not been verified by the sort of peer review one would apply to entertainment oriented biographies and journalistic reports. Wyss 1 July 2005 11:10 (UTC)

Thanks for the (not so gentle) correction. That should have been Wikipedia:cite your sources. Now then can you please give some examples of "peer-reviewed" sources for information on the personal lives of minor Hollywood actors? Thanks, -Willmcw July 1, 2005 21:26 (UTC)

Hollywood Gays is not among them. Wyss 2 July 2005 08:17 (UTC)

This is your personal opinion. There is enough evidence that the information on Nick Adams published in this book is true, simply because it's supported by several other independent sources. Did you read the reviews quoted above? I have cited my sources according to the Wikipedia quidelines. Where are your "peer-reviewed" sources proving that Adams wasn't gay? 80.141.226.214 2 July 2005 09:43 (UTC)

The documented evidence provides overwhelming consensus that your source in this case is not reliable. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:17 (UTC)

This is your personal opinion. I think that all sources I have quoted are reliable enough to be used to support the fact that Nick Adams was gay. They should be mentioned in the article. 80.141.210.38 2 July 2005 11:14 (UTC)

No, it's a fact that your sources as discussed above are almost uniformly dismissed by the independent, third-party reviewers who bothered to mention them. Wyss 2 July 2005 11:26 (UTC)

This is what some fans of the Hollywood stars may think, as they don't like their idols being "outed", and you already know that. Where are your "peer-reviewed" sources proving your claim? 80.141.222.113 3 July 2005 14:23 (UTC)

There is zero documented evidence to even thinly support any assertion under WP standards that Mr Adams was a homosexual, or ever demonstrated such behavior. Wyss 2 July 2005 11:20 (UTC)

The many independent sources I have quoted clearly show that you are wrong. 80.141.222.113

Discussion of edits

"Be respectful to others and their points of view. This means primarily: Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it. Provide a good edit summary when making significant changes that other users might object to." (See Wikipedia:Resolving disputes)

User:Wyss repeatedly made a simple revert thereby deleting a whole passage I have rewritten.

Only "Disputed statements for which a credible source has not been provided may be removed from Wikipedia articles. The disputed material should generally be moved to the article's talk page, to give an opportunity for editors to identify sources for the material." (See Wikipedia:Cite sources)

User:Wyss has deleted important additional information that was supported by several independent sources cited on the discussion page.

"Disputed information which, if verified, would remain in an article, should be placed on the article's talk page. Potentially useful information ought to be retained — and by placing disputed information on the talk page, you give other users the opportunity to find sources to support it, in which case the information could be re-inserted into the article proper. This guideline does not endorse or mandate that all unsourced information must be removed: it is recognised that some information is self-evident and that a source for it might not be necessary, or that something may be true and accurate but as-yet unsourced. However, it does make clear that users who, in good faith, dispute information to an article may remove that information and, where, if verified, the material would be suitable for the article, paste it to the talk page." (See Wikipedia:Cite sources)

User:Wyss did not place the disputed passage on the article's talk page. He totally deleted it.

"If you should be inclined to delete something from an entry, consider whether or not it may be profitable to check the facticity of the content first. Of course, if material is factual, i.e. substantiated and cited, be extra careful about deleting. An encyclopedia is, inter alia, an organized collection of facts, so consider each fact provided as potentially precious. ... If another editor provided a fact, there was probably a reason for it that shouldn't be overlooked. Of course, it is not true that everything an editor adds must be preserved. But be careful about deleting substantiated, relevant material." (See Wikipedia:Check your facts)

User:Wyss deleted material which was substantiated and cited (i.e. proved by several independent sources such as books, reviews, articles, websites). He was not extra careful about deleting. His only argument was that I did not cite from peer-reviewed secondary sources. For this weak argument, see also the statement by administrator Willmcw above.

"Those who write articles likely to be deemed in need of fact checking, for whatever reason, should expect to assist by providing references, ideally when the article is first written. Because of this, it's important to make it easy to verify the accuracy and neutrality of your content." (See Wikipedia:Verifiability)

"For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable. ... anything we include should have been covered in the records, reportage, research, or studies of others. In many, if not most, cases there should be several corroborating sources available should someone wish to consult them. Sources should be unimpeachable relative to the claims made..." (See Wikipedia:Verifiability)

User:Wyss did not provide any "peer-reviewed" reference that Nick Adams wasn't gay. Instead, he deleted a substantial paragraph including several references to independent sources which undoubtedly support the view that Adams was gay, and questions, without sufficient reason, the accuracy of these sources.

• Here, the anon again uses flawed logic: It's the anon's positive assertion that requires verification through a reliable source. I'm under no obligation to "prove" or even support the opposite of that assertion (besides, we all know one can't prove a negative, yet another example of the anon's flawed logic). Wyss 3 July 2005 00:46 (UTC)

"Sometimes a particular statement can only be verified at a place of dubious reliability, such as a weblog ("blog") or a tabloid newspaper. ... then attribute it to the source in question." (See Wikipedia:Verifiability)

I have cited what is written in published books and many other sources to support my argument. User:Wyss deleted these quotations and is unable to provide sources such as published books or articles in periodicals which unacknowledge the usual assumption that Adams was homosexual.

User:Wyss should also read what is written on the Wikipedia:Reliable sources page:

"If you can provide useful information to Wikipedia, please do so, whether or not you have a reliable source."

"... the idea that a certain person or group of people holds a certain opinion is a verifiable fact."

"A primary source provides direct evidence for a certain state of affairs. This may mean that the source observes a state of affairs directly, or that they observe indirect evidence of it. In other words, a primary source is a source very close to the original state of affairs you are writing about. An example of primary-source material would be a photograph of a car accident taken by an eye witness, or a report from that eye witness. A trial transcript is also primary-source material."

"A secondary source summarizes one or more primary sources."

"When reporting on objective facts, Wikipedia articles should cite primary and secondary sources whenever they exist."

"When reporting that an opinion is held by a particular individual or group, the best citation will be to a direct quote. If there is text, audio, or video available of someone expressing the opinion directly, it is preferable to include or transcribe an excerpt (very much allowed under fair use)."

"It's always appropriate to ask other editors, "How do you know that?", or "Can you cite your source?" If they didn't have a particular source in mind when they wrote the material originally, someone will have to find a credible source. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit in question."

"If multiple independent sources agree and they have either no strong reason to be biased or their biases are at cross purposes, then you have a reliable account."

"Editors may only use information that has been published in some form already by a credible publisher, so that we can offer that publication as a citation."

As every reader can see, I have cited several independent and published secondary sources. There is no need to delete a whole paragraph proving that Adams was gay.

Anon, you might want to have a look at the section entitled These Trolls are Vexsome on my talk page. Then have a look at the section called Sway Me. Meanwhile there is zero documented evidence Nick Adams ever demonstrated homosexual behavior. Wyss 2 July 2005 22:02 (UTC)

What's wrong with including the following paragraph in the article?

Rumours of his private life and death Adams's friendship with James Dean (a cultural icon who also died tragically young) and his reckless lifestyle have made his private life the subject of various tabloid reports and rumours. Once Adams was arrested for speeding nine times in one year. Though he was placed on probation, the larger studios ignored the young actor. According to some accounts, before his success as an actor Adams was a male prostitute catering to men. The book Hollywood Gays (Hadleigh, 1996) includes interviews with gay Hollywood stars, presents various examples of what it was like to be gay in twentieth century Hollywood and depicts an industry replete with double lives and convenience marriages. In it, a young Nick Adams is described as a Hollywood hustler and the author concludes the actor may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." However, characterizations of Adams as a "Hollywood hustler" may be a later confusion with the term pool hustler (which by his own admission he had been, as a teen in Pennsylvania), combined with the energetic tactics and various exaggerations he used in his efforts to get acting work in New York and Los Angeles. There are also assertions Adams was gay because he dated actor Natalie Wood, since the book Natalie Wood: A Life (Lambert, 2004) states she frequently dated gay men in Hollywood including director Nicholas Ray and actors Nick Adams, Raymond Burr, James Dean, Tab Hunter and Scott Marlowe. The book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (Bret, 2002) even claims Elvis Presley developed a crush on movie star James Dean, viewed Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams (presumably since he was Dean's roommate). Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, also says that Elvis had an affair with Adams, and the singer's platonic friend Judy Spreckels remembers going out with Elvis and his friend, Nick Adams. Although the assertions that Adams was homosexual are not based on a public "outing" on his part, he regularly appears on lists of famous gay people. Adams's death at a young age were also the subject of several tabloid reports and unconfirmed rumours. Some actors (notably Forrest Tucker and Robert Conrad) speculated he had been murdered, but no motive or suspect was ever established.

There is zero documented evidence Nick Adams ever demonstrated homosexual behavior. Wyss 3 July 2005 15:04 (UTC)

Zero documented evidence? There are several independent sources (books, reviews, articles, internet sources) I have quoted which support the view that Adams was gay. See above. 80.141.240.158 4 July 2005 18:54 (UTC)

Correct, the sources you've cited are undocumented interviews published decades later for the tabloid market. Wyss 5 July 2005 07:54 (UTC)

This is not true. In his biography on Natalie Wood, Gavin Lambert has included the most striking information that Nick Adams was gay. The book clearly is a reliable source. The author coedited the film magazine Sequence with Lindsay Anderson, was the editor of Sight and Sound and wrote film criticism for The Sunday Times and The Guardian. He is the author of four biographies (On Cukor, Norma Shearer, Nazimova and Mainly About Lindsay Anderson) and seven novels. He's known Natalie Wood and Robert Wagner for 40 years. The facts he presents are based on statements by Adams's contemporaries. His book, Natalie Wood: A Life (2004) includes interviews with the people who knew Wood best, for instance, Robert Wagner, Warren Beatty, Paul Mazursky, and Leslie Caron. Many of these stars are still living and would have protested if details published in the book were wrong. The author, himself deeply involved in Hollywood's gay scene, writes about the sexual dalliances of Wagner and Wood and their friends, both gay and straight, and clearly says that they "had many gay friends" throughout their life and that Wood frequently dated gay men in Hollywood circles including director Nicholas Ray and actors Nick Adams, Raymond Burr, James Dean, Tab Hunter and Scott Marlowe. The book clearly states that Adams was the first person among the Hollywood gays she met. Wood even did her part for gay history by supporting Mart Crowley in a manner that made it possible for him to write his Broadway play, The Boys in the Band (1968), which was praised as "the first truly honest portrayal of the lives of contemporary homosexuals". 80.141.184.254 5 July 2005 14:01 (UTC)

Looks to me like you got the inclusive statement regarding Nick Adams (listed in a string of people Wood reportedly socialized with) not from Lambert's book, but from this [6] article in the Advocate. This text is somewhat ambiguous as to what Lambert actually said about Adams and regardless, I don't imagine most of the book's subjects who are still alive are going to complain much about Adams' name being thrown into a long list like that, whatever the accuracy. My point is that the only documentation you've provided so far is a line from an article in the Advocate which provides an ambiguous reference to something in Lambert's book, both published over 35 years after his death. Since there is not so much as a shred of documented evidence from his lifetime that he was homosexual, this is rather a stretch.

Can you provide a direct quote from Lambert's book? If anyone can, I'm willing to try and incorporate it into both the Adams and Woods articles (to be sure, qualified as what it is, a passing remark packed with other names, published four decades after the event). Wyss 5 July 2005 14:27 (UTC)

See, for instance, http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0375410740/ref=sib_vae_pg_199/102-5978120-2064931?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=nick%20adams&p=S063&twc=10&checkSum=n8sgFjsI6jSyboZAQHaMbIefSki5R7oQPmVSC1x4o6w%3D#reader-page

Unfortunately, access to the content behind that link requires that I submit a credit card number which is sensitive, verifiable personal information I don't wish to disclose. However, I'd like to see the quote. You can email it to me privately from my talk page if you like (please do use a hotmail or other blind account if you wish to remain entirely anon). Wyss 5 July 2005 14:56 (UTC)

Google searches

These are for "Nick Adams homosexual" and "Nick Adams gay"

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Nick+Adams+homosexual&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

All I really see here are back references to Wikipedia, not encouraging...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Nick+Adams+gay&btnG=Search&meta=

More references to Wikipedia, and some mentions of David Bret's Elvis allegations. Bret is widely dismissed by critics as inventing material for his tabloid-oriented, downmarket books. Wyss 5 July 2005 15:01 (UTC)

Amazon Search of Lambert

Adams doesn't seem to be mentioned often in Lambert's bio of Natalie Wood but I found the following brief quote from the book...

Her first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams...

However, while the trade reviews seem glowing, most of the reader reviews are dismissive, mostly characterizing the book as "boring" with many saying it's basically a puff piece written for Robert Wagner (and according to the book's publicity, Lambert did write the book at Wagner's invitation).

So I can confirm that, over 35 years after his death, we have a passing reference in Lambert that Adams was gay, but the book's credibility has been questioned. Any other references to Adams as gay are even less credible, tabloid-type hearsay accounts which again, have emerged long after his death. As for Nick himself, we have no letters, no witnesses, no public outing, no court testimony, no gossip from the era that I'm aware of, only bits of hearsay published decades later in questionable sources (and seemingly none of those are first hand accounts of specific incidents or behavior). Was Nick gay? Given all the reading I've done about him lately, I'd like to know. If he was, that's ok with me. I still see no evidence of it and I truly can't parse out a way to work fragments of hearsay which seem completely apart from the documented record of his life into an encyclopedia article about him. For an example of an article I've edited extensively and which clearly depicts its subject as gay by referring to the documented record (although the subject himself publicly denied he was gay throughout his whole life), please see Liberace. Wyss 5 July 2005 17:27 (UTC)

Outing

I'm not really interested in outing celebrities or "defending" them from "false outing" campaigns. I think Wikipedia should just say that X wrote a book which claims Y is homosexual / bisexual / whatever. One or two lines ought to be enough.

If anyone wants to write an article about the book, fine. Uncle Ed July 5, 2005 20:04 (UTC)

Maybe the anon should write an article about the book Hollywood Gays. Wyss 6 July 2005 14:17 (UTC)

A quote from Lambert

I have added a confirmed quote from Lambert (which I managed to snare yesterday from a search excerpt at Amazon, fair use). Lambert's book has been criticized as "a boring puff piece for Bob Wagner." Adams seems to have known Natalie Wood rather well but going by an Amazon search for his name in the book's text, he's not mentioned too often. I suspect Lambert picked up on a rumour somewhere and went with it without checking it out. I think Lambert's likely mistaken but that's my opinion. I can assert for a fact that Lambert's remark is unsupported by any external, documented evidence and I've noted this in the article. I have no interest in "outing" Adams or "defending" him from that. I am keenly interested in maintaining an article based on secondary sources drawn from the documented record. Wyss 6 July 2005 08:58 (UTC)

This is what you are suspecting. It could well be that Lambert was in close contact with both Natalie Wood and Nick Adams and therefore exactly knows about what he is writing. The article should also mention the claims that have been published by the other independent sources. 80.141.222.34 6 July 2005 14:42 (UTC)

Your first remark refers to my opinion that Lambert may be mistaken (that's original research so I didn't put it in the article, although note that even though I think the quote is inaccurate, I put it in the article because it comes from an at least somewhat credible, published source). Your second remark is your own original research but no matter, I've included the quote as above. Your third refers to undocumented hearsay, independent or otherwise, from widely dismissed published sources... as I have noted before, just because someone printed and distributed something doesn't make it suitable as content here, there is a question of peer review. Again, readers are invited to look at the Google searches above. Most references to rumours that Adams was gay come from Wikipedia and its mirrors. Wyss 6 July 2005 14:50 (UTC)

What has been published on Adams should be mentioned. That some of these sources may be unreliable is said in the article. Let the reader decide which argument to accept. 80.141.220.73

Please have a look at what an Encyclopedia is. Also please refer to my remarks above regarding peer review and the credibility of sources. Wyss 7 July 2005 19:45 (UTC)

I have cited my sources on this page. You say that some of them are not reliable, I say that they are reliable enough. By the way, where are your peer-reviewed sources concerning the facts you have included in the article? 80.141.244.39 7 July 2005 23:12 (UTC)

Your request for peer-reviewed sources regarding factoids like Adams' expenditure of $8000 promoting his academy award nomination or consulting with John Wayne for acting tips is, for me, rather transparent as a disingenuous debating tactic. Your sources regarding any allegations Adams was gay are not credible with the exception of Lambert (who may have been mistaken but no matter, it's in the article). None correspond with the documented record. I'll continue to edit this article according to my humble interpretation of WP policy until consensus is reached. Wyss 8 July 2005 08:33 (UTC)

James Dean reference

Can whoever posted the statement that Adams and Dean were roommates please provide their credible source with their proofs. Thank you. 20:39, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

I'd been leaving that in because I thought it was sourced. Checking into it, I can't find any reference to it anywhere. I'm removing it. Wyss 20:59, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

For what reason did you now delete this passage, which is proved by the following reference?

From Boze Hadleigh's interview with Sal Mineo:

Hadleigh: James Dean and Nick Adams were roommates, as I'm sure you know. Were they also lovers?

Sal Mineo: I didn't hear it from Jimmy, who was sort of awesome to me when we did Rebel. But Nick told me they had a big affair- I don't know if it was while they were living together or not. But there's always the roomie thing in Hollywood- Brando and Wally Cox, Brando and Tony Curtis, Cary Grant and Randolph Scott- and there are always rumors about them, even if they aren't true. I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true... See http://www.salmineo.com/news/inter_hadleigh.html 80.141.243.74 21:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

and there are always rumors about them, even if they aren't true. I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true. Wyss 21:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, rumors about "the roomie thing" of the other actors. Sal Mineo clearly states: "Nick told me they [Adams and James Dean] had a big affair- I don't know if it was while they were living together or not." This is another source supporting the view that Nick Adams had homosexual leanings. 80.141.243.74 22:08, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm curious

Anon 80.141.xxx.xx, your IP address suggests you're in the Amsterdam area and your editing pattern strongly suggests you have the articles Nick Adams and Natalie Wood, among others, on a watchlist. The only way to have a watchlist is to have a WP account. Do you have a Wikipedia user account? I mean, you don't have to answer but I thought I'd ask. Wyss 21:27, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not have these articles on what you call a watchlist, but nearly every day I am looking what has happened to my contributions, and frequently I am confronted with repeated reverts you did. 80.141.249.174 02:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

You seem so familiar with WP policies and are so quick to react to changes in the few articles that interest you (especially in restoring the word homosexual wherever you possibly can) that this seems to me to fit the pattern of an otherwised registered WP user who logs on anonymously to pursue a wantonly misleading PoV agenda. This is why I asked. I do notice you didn't actually deny having a user account :) Wyss 10:40, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Just for your information. Apart from the endless and boring edit war with you and your alter ego, Ted Wilkes concerning the articles on Nick Adams, Natalie Wood or Elvis Presley, I have contributed to several other articles using my dynamic IP address, 80.141.xxx.xxx. One of my recent edits is the new page on TrustRank. I think you should keep personal remarks such as that I am allegedly logging "on anonymously to pursue a wantonly misleading PoV agenda" and some other accusations to yourself, for these suspicions are completely unfounded and such attacks do not help matters at all. There is one interesting fact. You are the person who frequently tries to delete any references to the possible homosexuality of Nick Adams or Elvis Presley, although there are several independent sources which support this claim. 80.141.245.101 15:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Rebel music

I removed the following text:

• "The theme song for The Rebel was originally recorded by Adams' friend Elvis Presley but the show's producer was unhappy with the result and instead hired Johnny Cash, who made it a hit."

Unless someone can document this, it makes no sense. Getting Presley to sing the theme song for a TV show is not consistent with Colonel Parker's management philosophy but for any TV producer, it would have been an enormous boon to get the biggest star in the world. The music for The Rebel was written by Richard Markowitz who was not connected to Presley nor was the show's producer, Andrew J. Fenady. Of course, if someone has the documented facts, they should elaborate. Ted Wilkes 15:30, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

The only reference I can find to Presley being involved is at http://www.womenwritersblock.com/ourfavwest7.htm. It's a bit thin. It's well-confirmed that Cash did the theme song so I've restored that (minus any mention of Elvis). Wyss 16:58, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Some quotes:

"Music: "The Rebel" theme song written by Richard Markowitz and sung by Johnny Cash. The original Elvis Presley version recorded for the pilot was not approved by producer." See http://aa.1asphost.com/CTVA/US/Western/Rebel.htm

"An interesting note to the series is that Elvis Presley was originally scheduled to sing the theme song. Elvis and Nick were fast friends, but the producer didn’t like the way Elvis sang and used Johnny Cash instead." See http://www.womenwritersblock.com/ourfavwest7.htm

I've seen these. They're unsubstantiated by any credible source, and seem to have been picked up from the tabloid gossip stuff that's appeared over the last ten years or so. Wyss 10:43, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

There are two independent internet sources claiming that an original Elvis version was recorded for the pilot of the TV western series. It should also be taken into account that Adams and Elvis were close friends at that time. 80.141.217.82 13:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

There is much evidence that Nick Adams was gay. In a 2004 biography of Natalie Wood, Gavin Lambert emphasizes that Wood was in close contact with many gay men in Hollywood circles, among them Nick Adams. See Talk:Natalie Wood. David Bret and Elvis Presley's stepmother, Dee Presley, claim that Elvis had an affair with Nick Adams. See sources cited on the Talk:Nick Adams page. Further, it is an undisputed fact that Elvis and Adams were close friends. Red West, member of the Memphis Mafia, says: "...Nick Adams - I don't know if you remember Nick Adams - did a series called "The Rebel". He was a friend of Elvis's and I went to Hollywood and met him. He helped me get into the first door..." See http://www.elvisnews.com/output/print.asp?section=art&id=512 80.141.249.174 02:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

For more information on why your edits are not encyclopedic, please re-read this talk page. Wyss 10:43, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

By the way, Adams was friends with Elvis, doesn't mean they had sex with each other, though. Wyss 11:49, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

If both men had homosexual leanings, it could well be that they also had a sexual relationship. 80.141.217.82 13:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, and if pigs could fly they might have wings. Wyss 13:42, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

What a significant contribution to this discussion page. I am impressed. 80.141.245.101 15:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! :) I think it does a rather thorough job of illustrating your false and circular logic. Wyss 15:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Can anybody explain why User:Wyss has totally deleted the following passage:

At about the same time Adams was also a close friend to Elvis Presley. Red West, member of the 'Memphis Mafia' (pals and employees of Elvis), states: "Nick Adams ... was a friend of Elvis's and I went to Hollywood and met him. He helped me get into the first door..." Judy Spreckels, the platonic girlfriend of Elvis in the early days of the singer's career, also remembers going out with Elvis and his friend Nick Adams. 80.141.245.101 15:46, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I may have. What does it have to do with anything other than your agenda to insert the word homosexual as many times as you can into the Elvis Presley article? Please re-read this talk page if you have further questions as to why your edits are not encyclopedic. Wyss 16:00, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Are there any sources which contradict the fact that Elvis and Adams were friends? Of course not. Thus you have deleted relevant information from the article. 80.141.187.74 16:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I've never said they weren't. Truth be told, I've confirmed it. Most successful Hollywood actors have famous friends. There is no documented evidence Nick Adams was gay. Please re-read this talk page if you have further questions as to why your edits are not encyclopedic. Wyss 17:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

In 1972, Sal Mineo says, "...Nick told me they [i.e. Adams and James Dean] had a big affair- I don't know if it was while they were living together or not..." See above and http://www.salmineo.com/news/inter_hadleigh.html

Yeah, Mineo (who is desperate for work) then without interruption immediately goes on to mention a string of old "Hollywood homo" rumours and ends the same comment with:

and there are always rumors about them, even if they aren't true. I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true.

Mineo's "cover my flanks" disclaimer is sparkling clear. He's telling the interviewer what he wants to hear, so the interview will get published, so SM might get some badly needed publicity. Er, that is, if the interview even happened. Hadleigh is widely criticized for publishing interviews which seem to be made up. There is no documented evidence NA was gay. Wyss 22:04, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Now everybody can see that your usual strategy is to disparage any source you don't agree with. Thanks. 80.141.243.74 22:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm just reading the reviews. The anon may have seen reviews of Hadleigh like this one on Amazon:

I so completely disbelieve his interviews that he almost succeeds in making me think Liberace was straight, if Boze Hadleigh says he wasn't. - Jim Beaver, Hollywood CA Wyss 22:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

This may be Jim Beaver's personal opinion, as he apparently don't like what is written in Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays. Others think that the Hadleigh interviews are accurate. For instance, the reviewer of the Library Journal concludes that "the interviews are highly entertaining and provide an important, mostly undocumented view of the film industry's social history. Recommended for both general readers looking for dish and scholars of gay history and film studies." It should be taken into account that Hadleigh's interview with Mineo appeared in another book, Conversations with my Elders, first published in 1972, shortly after Adams' death. 80.141.194.108 22:53, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

The anon, in his words, "apparently likes" Hadleigh and Bret as sources, I don't. Wyss 10:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Facts which prove that user Wyss's claims are wrong

User:Wyss has claimed on this discussion page (see above), "So I can confirm that, over 35 years after his death, we have a passing reference in Lambert that Adams was gay, but the book's credibility has been questioned. Any other references to Adams as gay are even less credible, tabloid-type hearsay accounts which again, have emerged long after his death."

1. The credibility of Gavin Lambert's book which states that Natalie Wood dated gay actor Nick Adams has not been questioned. The reputed author (80) was a Wood friend for 16 years. He has had access both to official papers and to Natalie's own writings including her day book and has interviewed members of her family and her husband, Robert Wagner. Certainly the biography supplies an insider's look at Wood and chronicles everything concerning her life. Wagner gave Lambert full cooperation for the book, telling his friends to share their memories as well. Without that help, the book would not have been complete. Natasha Gregson Wagner, daughter of Natalie Wood, calls Lambert's book "a wonderful biography on my Mom ... that we are all involved with - everybody that knew my Mom and was close to her - and that will really be the one I hope everyone reads. It will be the definitive biography on my Mother."

2. In a book which was published in 1972 (certainly not an account which has emerged long after Adams's death), gay actor Sal Mineo, still alive at that time, undoubtedly confirms that there was a sexual relationship between Adams and James Dean. He says, "I didn't hear it from Jimmy, who was sort of awesome to me when we did Rebel. But Nick told me they had a big affair." 80.141.187.27 10:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• It is well established in scholarship that a biographer's friendship with his subject, along with fullsome praise by the family of any finished work, is a reason for skepticism rather than confidence. Wyss 11:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Mineo immediately qualified his remarks by adding, and there are always rumors about them, even if they aren't true. I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true. Hardly a ringing endorsement of his own words.

Sorry, Mineo's additional remarks refer to some other Hollywood stars. You cannot deny that it is a fact that Sal Mineo says that James Dean and Nick Adams "had a big affair". This statement by an actor who knew both Dean and Adams very well undoubtedly supports the view that Adams was gay. 80.141.228.96 12:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

He plainly relates those rumours to his own comments about "Jimmy", after he's been led into the question by the interviewer. The remark is interesting, but doesn't even support itelf since he adds... I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true. Wyss 12:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. Here, again, is the full quote: "Sal Mineo: I didn't hear it from Jimmy, who was sort of awesome to me when we did Rebel. But Nick told me they had a big affair- I don't know if it was while they were living together or not. But there's always the roomie thing in Hollywood- Brando and Wally Cox, Brando and Tony Curtis, Cary Grant and Randolph Scott- and there are always rumors about them, even if they aren't true. I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true..." See http://www.salmineo.com/news/inter_hadleigh.html The additional remarks clearly refer to "the roomie thing" concerning the other actors. The original quote also proves that Mineo wasn't "led" into the remark by the interviewer and then quickly qualified it, as you wrongly claim below. 80.141.223.111 12:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• However, after all these posts, this is the only (purported) statement of someone from Adams' extended social circle that the anon has come up with. Given that it's hearsay, four years after Adams' death, that Mineo (desperate for work) was "led" into the remark by the interviewer and then quickly qualified it, this hardly qualifies as documented evidence. It's documented gossip which Mineo himself puts down. Wyss 12:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Moreover, Adams was known for stretching the truth, and there is lots of documented evidence he tried to boost his own career on Dean's memory after Dean's death. Although I have no opinion either way, maybe Adams did say something like that to Mineo... and Mineo, knowing Adams, didn't believe him, politely saying as much in the interview (without disappointing the interviewer who led him into the topic): I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true. Readers are also reminded that Mineo denies having an affair with Dean. Wyss 12:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

• Adams had a messy and acrimonious divorce. He got custody of his kids after a long fight by proving his wife had had an affair. Why weren't any rumours of his being gay brought up in court? Why do we have zero published gossip (or even sniggering tabloid copy) from the era about this? Readers are also cautioned that James Dean's alleged bisexuality is disputed, and that the anon's posting behavior indicates a desire to insert the word homosexual as many times as possible into the Elvis Presley article, based on an interest in seeding Google with misleading keywords, which the anon has written a WP article about. See Special:Contributions/80.141.249.246 for more. Wyss 11:51, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Your only intention seems to be to disparage every source which is not in line with your personal opinion. 80.141.228.96 12:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Readers are reminded that when I found this page the anon was using, in the article, the term biggest piece in town to describe Adams' penis. Whatever, there is no documented evidence Adams was gay. Wyss 12:18, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Significantly, all of your statements do not prove a thing. 80.141.223.111 12:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The anon misunderstands how this works. Any burden of proof is on the editor who wishes to include material in the article. I don't need to prove anything (never mind "a negative"). I'm asking for secondary sources drawn from primary source documentation, which the anon has yet to provide. I think it's time to declare a consensus on this. Wyss 12:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Absence of evidence is not the same as presence of evidence. It is the opposite of presence of evidence. Wyss 13:24, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Sources for articles

Administrator Ed Poor says on another Talk page:

I don't mean to pick on you, but:

Please note how the anon demonstrates an utter lack of understanding of how Wikipedia and the historical sciences work. Only the anon's assertion requires proof (or at least some sort of primary source documentation cited by a secondary source). As an editor I don't need to prove anything (never mind prove a negative).

I expect a bit more from signed in users. Is that fair? Maybe not, but I've leaned that way these past few years.

Anyway, unless an assertion is utterly uncontroversial, it's going to need some back-up. Especially, if one of more contributors challenge the assertion. Then, it's better to move the disputed passage to the article's associated talk page.

A good way to deal with disputed ideas is to attribute an assertion to a source. Like:

• Nick Adams says James Dean screwed Natalie Wood while Elvis watched (note: this is a made-up example); or,
• Nick Adams says Elvis Presley paid X to cover up his homosexual affairs with Y and Z (another made-up example)

Note the common theme here. Wikipedia is not saying Adams [in the made-up example] is right, it's merely passing along his claims clearly attributed to him. Uncle Ed 18:40, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

The anon is urged to re-read this talk page if he has further questions why his edits to this article hav not been encyclopedic. Wyss 16:41, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Statement by gay biographer, David Ehrenstein

I sent David Ehrenstein, an expert on Hollywood's gay scene, this email:

Dear David Ehrenstein,

As you are an expert on Hollywood gays, may I ask you to have a look at the following Wikipedia articles and the related discussion pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Adams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nick_Adams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Wood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Natalie_Wood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bret

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:David_Bret

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elvis_Presley

There has been a dispute whether actors such as Nick Adams were gay or Natalie Wood had contacts to many gay men in Hollywood circles. Some users have repeatedly deleted contributions to these articles which claimed that Nick Adams and other stars were gay. Perhaps you can help.

Here is Ehrenstein's short but precise reply to my email:

"I can't access those links you sent me. But Nick Adams was gay and Natalie Wood was Grace to any number of Hollywood Wills."

You may ask him for further information: david@ehrensteinland.com

I think this statement by an expert who had access to many primary and secondary sources undoubtedly proves that Adams was gay. 80.141.176.177 12:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

That's only an assertion, not proof. Where's the documentation? Anyway, there is no "dispute" about the sexual preferences of these people. The only issue has been the reasonable sourcing of assertions, and how to characterize unsourced, undocumented but published tabloid material (rumours) in these encyclopedia articles. Wyss 13:27, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

David Ehrenstein is author of the book, Open Secret: Gay Hollywood, 1928-2000 and has written many other articles concerning Hollywood gays. See [7] and [8] Many would call him a real authority and expert on the matter. Where are your sources which prove that Ehrenstein is wrong? 80.141.185.233 18:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

As I've mentioned previously (and plainly), the only burden of proof is on you, the editor who wishes to include the assertion, that such assertion is supported by documented evidence cited by secondary sources. You have not met this burden of proof. Please re-read this talk page for more information as to why your edits are not encyclopedic. Wyss 19:09, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me for stepping in. Emails from experts are what we call "original research" and are not allowed as sources. wikipedia:no original research. On the other hand, books, magazines, etc, are wikipedia:verifiable sources, though some may be judged by editors to be too unreliable to include. -Willmcw 19:30, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, you should also read what is written on the Wikipedia:Reliable sources page:

"If you can provide useful information to Wikipedia, please do so, whether or not you have a reliable source."

"... the idea that a certain person or group of people holds a certain opinion is a verifiable fact."

"A primary source provides direct evidence for a certain state of affairs. This may mean that the source observes a state of affairs directly, or that they observe indirect evidence of it. In other words, a primary source is a source very close to the original state of affairs you are writing about."

"A secondary source summarizes one or more primary sources."

"When reporting on objective facts, Wikipedia articles should cite primary and secondary sources whenever they exist."

"When reporting that an opinion is held by a particular individual or group, the best citation will be to a direct quote. If there is text, audio, or video available of someone expressing the opinion directly, it is preferable to include or transcribe an excerpt (very much allowed under fair use)."

"If multiple independent sources agree and they have either no strong reason to be biased or their biases are at cross purposes, then you have a reliable account."

As every reader can see, I have cited several independent and published secondary sources. They all agree that Adams was gay. 80.141.246.45 01:20, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The anon has convinced me, I don't think the rumour even reaches the bar for a mention in the article. Wyss 01:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

This is a significant statement which shows that your repeated reverts are only based on your personal opinion - not on some sources.

I am so sorry, but the edit war is going on. I have included two additional passages in the Nick Adams article, but user Wyss has repeatedly deleted this text:

1. At about the same time Adams was also a close friend to Elvis Presley. This is confirmed by Red West, member of the 'Memphis Mafia' (pals and employees of Elvis), and Judy Spreckels, the platonic girlfriend of Elvis in the early days of the singer's career.

It should be added that there are photographs showing Elvis together with Adams. So it is quite clear that Adams and Elvis had been close friends at that time. See [9] and [10]

2. According to several sources, Adams had homosexual leanings. In his 2004 biography Natalie Wood: A Life, Gavin Lambert writes, "Her first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams..." In 1972, Sal Mineo stated that Adams told him that he had a big affair with James Dean. The book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (David Bret, 2002) even claims Elvis Presley was intimate with Adams. That the singer had an affair with Adams is also confirmed by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley. However there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to Adams to support the rumours that Adams was homosexual.

The reputed biographer Lambert, who also worked for many years as a Hollywood screenwriter, was a lifelong friend of Wood's. Sal Mineo was in close contact with both Adams and Dean. It should also be noted that in the Hollywood world Adams is more widely known for his contacts and affairs with other well-known stars than his acting career. So his affairs with James Dean and Elvis Presley are of much importance and should be mentioned in the article.

In my opinion, the last sentence, written by Wyss, is not necessary as many Hollywood homosexuals did not "out" themselves, but I am willing to make this concession to user Wyss. I have only cited what is written in independent books and articles (see above). I think this is in line with the Wikipedia guidelines. In addition, gay biographer David Ehrenstein, who has written a book on Hollywood gays, sent me an email in which he confirmed the assertion that Adams was gay (see above). Further, user Wyss is unable to cite any sources which undoubtedly prove that Adams was heterosexual. 80.141.196.186 23:24, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The anon doesn't seem to have noticed that I have not asserted Adams was hetereosexual and since I haven't asserted it, I don't see why I have to prove it. However, the anon has made an assertion that Nick Adams was gay. Since there is zero documented evidence to support this (only undocumented gossip published for the tabloid market decades after he died), I've been insisting that the anon produce a cite of documented evidence in a secondary source. He has not done this. The sources he has cited are the hearsay tabloid books described above, most of which are widely discredited. We've already discussed this at great length. The anon is respectfully asked to re-read this talk page if he has any further questions as to why his edits to this article have not been encyclopedic. Wyss 00:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

This seems to be the same thing the anon copy-pasted over on user:Mel Etitis's talk page earlier. I made a longer response there. Wyss 00:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Where are your sources, Wyss, which undoubtedly prove that all the independent sources I have cited are wrong? It is only your personal opinion that these sources may not be reliable enough. Interestingly, Wyss and Ted Wilkes again seem to take turns in doing repeated reverts in order to delete what I have written, presumably to escape violation of the three revert rule. See history of the article. This supports my suspicion that Wyss and his alter ego Ted Wilkes try to suppress specific references to homosexuality in some Wikipedia articles on Hollywood's gays. Significantly, I am the person involved in this edit war who frequently cites different sources which all prove that Adams was gay, and Wyss/Ted Wilkes is the person who is constantly disparaging these sources - in lack of further evidence supporting his view. Wyss even does not tell the truth as he has stated above that I have "not provided reliable sources, only published, undocumented gossip, which has for the most part appeared only decades after the celebrities in question died." This is what I call ignoring facts. Certainly the Wood biography by Lambert is a reliable source, as the author, who died some days ago, was a reputed writer and much involved in Hollywood's gay scene during the 1950s and 60s. He must have known that Wood's friend Adams was gay. See also this photograph showing Elvis, Natalie Wood and Nick Adams: [11]. Further, there is a statement by gay actor Sal Mineo in a book which was published as early as 1972 that Adams had an affair with James Dean. And I am sure that there are further sources from the period which gay biographers such as David Ehrenstein must have used to support their view that Adams had homosexual leanings. Last not least, there is no absence of evidence as Wyss wrongly claims, because every source I have cited says that Adams was gay. 80.141.234.124 00:41, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• This may be the fifth time I've said this but that's ok. I don't need to provide any sources, the anon does. So far, the only cites offered by the anon have been either widely discredited gossip books unsupported by documentation, or similary undocumented, passing references. I'm only asking that the anon provide a secondary source citing documented evidence of the assertion. Wyss 00:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Gavin Lambert's Wood biography certainly is a reliable source.

O.K., Wyss/Ted, would you please tell me which sources you have used to write all your Wikipedia articles on other movie stars, singers, etc.? It may be extremely important to list on your User:Wyss page the most reliable of these sources that you are most likely to trust and explain why, so that every reader can see on which peer-reviewed sources your outstanding Wikipedia contributions are frequently based. Would you also be so kind as to cite on this discussion page all the reliable sources you have used for the Nick Adams article? Are you able to present documented evidence for every contribution you have made? If not, you should refrain from accusing me of having used sources of inferior quality. But I fear, most of the information you have used may also only be based on tabloid hearsay, gossip books or information picked up from some websites. 80.141.226.182 01:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• The anon does not seem to be actually disputing the accuracy of the content currently in the article. If the anon wishes to dispute the existing content point by point, on this page, I will provide secondary cites for each (for example, birth stats, marriage, filmography, the trivia items and so on) which refer to documented sources I'm sure we can eventually have consensus on if I submit this article (and the anon) to RfC.

Would you please provide, step by step, all your accurate, peer-reviewed secondary sources you have used for each of your entries, so that everybody can see how reliable these sources are. Thanks. 80.141.234.26 12:09, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

As I plainly stated above, I am requesting reliable documentation for the anon's specific assertion. If the anon wishes to dispute any specific assertions in the article, we can re-examine the sources for that assertion. When I have the time, I'll likely be submitting this article and the anon's editing history to RfC. Wyss 17:13, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• Meanwhile, the anon is urged to reread this talk page if he has further question as to why his edits to this article have not been encyclopedic. Wyss 02:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Editing-by-revert which is not acceptable

It should be noted that Wyss's last revert (see [12]) totally deleted the following relevant information:

a) From the "Hollywood career" section:

1. Dean became his friend and roommate.
2. At about the same time he was also a close friend to Elvis Presley.

b) From the "Rumours" section:

According to several independent sources, such as Gavin Lambert's Natalie Wood: A Life (2004) and Boze Hadleigh's Conversations with my Elders (1972), Adams had homosexual leanings. Gay actor Sal Mineo, for instance, stated that Adams told him that he had a big affair with James Dean. David Bret's book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2002) even claims Elvis Presley was intimate with Adams. That the singer had an affair with Adams is also confirmed by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley. However, there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to Adams to support the rumours that Adams was homosexual.

Further, Wyss himself has included material in the article which is based either on gossip books, unsupported by documentation, or on undocumented, passing references he picked up from websites. On the other hand, he accuses me of having used sources of inferior quality, although I have cited several independent books, articles, reviews, biographical websites, etc. on this talk page and in the article which prove what I have said. This is what I call unfairly applying double standards in order to support Wyss's biased view. 80.141.230.189 18:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• The anon's edits to Nick Adams and Natalie Wood have been narrowly limited to inserting the word homosexual into the text. There is zero evidence to support the anon's edits. I've plainly described my replying edits on the talk pages for these articles. The anon has rejectd all attempts at consensus or compromise. Wyss 21:14, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Mediation

• Assisting mediator Jcarrack: For mediation to continue, its necessary that User:80.141... register and log in. Its anonymous, it requires only name and password, and presents many more benefits than not having one. User:80.141 appears to be reasonable and articulate, but should he continue to remain unregistered for this debate, I recommend this be moved to Arbitration, to impose this simple request on User:80.141, or block em from editing. Sinreg -SV|t 18:10, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I have now created a Wikipedia account. I will be on vacation with my family the next two weeks. In the meantime, an administrator or mediator may decide if some details of my last edits are in line with the Wikipedia policies and may be reinstated. See [13] - [14] - [15]. Good luck and keep me postet on your progress. I will reply in detail later. Onefortyone 21:09, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

How can Onefortyone participate in mediation (which he requested), or any progress be made, if he is not available to discuss anything? Based on the groundrules supplied by user:JCarriker, I respectfully suggest mediation begin only when and if Onefortyone comes back or otherwise available and willing to actively participate. Wyss 21:22, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Please note that the manner in which Onefortyone (formerly known as "the anon") established his user and talk pages indicates prior experience as a registered user of Wikipedia. Wyss 21:28, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• As proposed, I entered this attempt at mediation in good faith and in the assumption of good faith.

• Now I've been privately emailed by a well-known and concerned Wikipedia user who has informed me that the reason the anon Onefortyone has called a "two week vacation" is likely tactical... to avoid a sockpuppet check with CheckUser, since "This data is only stored for one week, so edits made prior to that will not be shown via CheckUser."

• Given that the anon himself requested mediation, then made a sudden declaration of a vacation immediately after user:JCarriker stipulated the anon get a username, I take this as a further refusal by the anon to cooperate with WP's procedures of sourcing, consensus and dispute resolution, including a refusal to abide by the mediation process. I respectfully suggest that the anon has in effect refused mediation while attempting to thwart verification of his edit history and hope this will be dealt with accordingly. Wyss 00:18, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

POV pushers

USER:Onefortyone take note:

• User talk:Trey Stone#Mail - Our current thinking is that we will ban aggressive POV editors from the articles which they impact. This policy has been refined somewhat from our former general bans and includes Wikipedia:Probation. – Wikipedia:Arbitrator Fred Bauder

I welcome and strongly endorse Fred Bauder's remark. In the interest of full disclosure, please note that User:Ted Wilkes copied the above and placed on this page (it was not posted here by Fred Bauder). Wyss 14:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Wyss, as I have cited several independent sources to support my contributions, I am not an aggressive POV editor. Onefortyone 15:03, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Please read that post again Onefortyone. I didn't put it there, User:Ted Wilkes put it there. What I said on your talk page stands. Wyss 15:07, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Dee Presley

User:Onefortyone (including as ANON 80.141.etc.) has several variations of his claim about Dee Presley (the ex-wife of Vernon Presley who were separated in 1974 and divorced in 1977). At Talk:Elvis Presley he stated:

• First he stated: "In her book The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis, Dee Presley, the king's stepmother, also makes some astonishing accusations. She says that Elvis was with men, too, and also mentions his affair with Nick Adams."
• Then when it was proven that no such book exists he changed it to assert: "In her manuscript book The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis Dee Presley, also confirms that Elvis had sexual encounters with men and mentions his affair with his friend, Nick Adams."
• Now that nonsense about using an unpublished manuscript as a reference is a joke that was deleted, today we get version No. 3: "Dee Presley also says that Elvis had an affair with Nick Adams."

In this article on Nick Adams, this User inserted the same thing about Dee Presley many times and came up with yet more versions above including this one:

• "that he was homosexual. Indeed, this accusation (by Bret's book) is proved by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, and by his platonic girlfriend Judy Spreckels."

Seeing as this User reverted others more than FORTY times when they tried to revert this nonsense, perhaps User:Onefortyone needs to explain himself as he has reinserted this repeatedly again today both here and in the Presly article. Ted Wilkes 02:46, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Ted, my contributions are based on independent sources (books, articles, etc.) Onefortyone 12:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

We may have some minor details left to work out but 141 and I had a quick, informal mediation between ourselves yesterday and agreed that published rumours about NA could go in the rumours section. I'm going to stand by this because:

• The rumours exist in fact and have been published in multiple books

• The rumours section clearly says there is no evidence for them being true

• I've made the agreement based on these parametres. Some readers coming to the article for info about NA will have heard these rumours and it'll be helpful for them to see the sources, the disclaimer about the evidence, and the main body of the article about his life and acting career all in encyclopedic context. Wyss 05:48, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

This is fine. I have added some notes on Adams's friendship with Elvis at that time, which is also proved by a photograph showing them sitting together in a car. Onefortyone 12:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Adams's friendship with Elvis

I wonder why you have deleted the passage on Adams's friendship with Elvis. Even Ted Wilkes has confirmed that this friendship existed. Red West, member of the Memphis Mafia, says: "...Nick Adams - I don't know if you remember Nick Adams - did a series called "The Rebel". He was a friend of Elvis's and I went to Hollywood and met him. He helped me get into the first door..." There is the following statement by Ted Wilkes on the Talk:Elvis Presley page:

"Did Elvis Presley know actor Nick Adams, and Adams' wife and two children? He absolutely knew Nick Adams, along with several other men with whom he studied Karate while in Los Angeles. Adams was one of the many hangers-on who tried to build a friendship with the biggest star in the world - to enhance his own career. First it was James Dean thar Adams tried to be friends with then a few years later when he heard Presley was a big James Dean fan, he joined the Karate class and ingratiated himself with Presley."

The additional statements by Judy Spreckels and Red West and the photograph showing the stars sitting together in a car undoubtedly prove that Elvis and Adams must have been close friends for some time. Onefortyone 13:17, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

It was no secret that Elvis Presley and Nick Adams were friends. I've introduced that as a fact into the rumours section (and it's already directly quoted from a source in the main body of the article). No need to prove it. I've even seen plenty of references to it even on fan-type websites which have nothing to do with the Bret-type rumours. So... I'm sure you can see my point... mentioning it as some sort of a "revealed secret" in the article would be misleading. Wyss 13:39, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

O.K. I have now added the sentence, "It is also well known that Adams and Elvis Presley were close friends." Onefortyone 13:42, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

And I've tried to tweak it, only to prevent any chance that mentioning their well-known friendship could be interpreted as "revelatory." Wyss 13:51, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. It's O.K. now. Onefortyone 13:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)