Talk:Miriam Makeba

Suggestion for Earlier Picture

I was thinking that since Miriam Makeba is dead, often Wikipedia has an older main picture of that person, so in other words when that person was younger. Of course there are exceptions like for example Mother Teresa who was more relevant in her older years. But I think in this case Miriam Makeba achieved considerable fame in the 1960s, so it would be nice if the main picture was from around that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.201.50 (talk) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Miriam Makeba/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Midnightblueowl (talk · contribs) 18:47, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I'll field this one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:47, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

A lot of great work has clearly gone into this article. I'm mostly concerned with minor prose issues, of which there are a fair few. Feel free to argue with me on any of them if you disagree! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: Just so you know, I think I've covered everything so far. There's no big rush, but after the next 24 hours or so I will be travelling for a little bit, and my time here will decline a trifle. Vanamonde (talk) 13:09, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks User:Vanamonde93; will try and make my way through the entire article tonight. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:08, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: I think I've responded to everything that's been currently raised. I will do my best with further concerns/responses, but for a few days my participation will be intermittent. Vanamonde (talk) 10:07, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• @Vanamonde93: - that's fine, there's no hurry. Have a good time, whatever you may be busy with! Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:37, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

On the lede

• I like shorter, punchier opening paragraphs, but I think that having an opening paragraph consisting only of a single sentence might be a little too brief. Maybe add a second sentence describing the musical genre(s) that Makeba operated in, etc. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• I've given this a shot

• We mention the (US) civil rights activism in the opening sentence, but not the anti-apartheid activities that she was involved in. Perhaps we could go for a separate sentence "An activist involved in the African-American civil rights and anti-apartheid movements, she reflected these sentiments in her work". How would that work? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:21, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Actually that's just an incorrect link on my part. When the sources say "civil rights activist" they refer to the global movement, so I've changed the link to Civil rights movements.

• "UN goodwill ambassador" - I would definitely use "United Nations" rather than the acronym here, and a link to goodwill ambassador would probably be in order. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Done

• After "Born in Johannesburg,", I would mention that she was of mixed Swazi and Xhosa parentage. I have always included the ethnicity of Southern African figures at this juncture (Nelson Mandela, Steve Biko, Robert Mugabe, etc) and think that it works well. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• That's a good point, and one I usually pay attention to. I do wish, though, that other folks would apply this to white historical figures as well...

• Very true; but I don't think that we will see a shift in that direction any time soon. Although it is a pervasive issue when covering white figures it is probably true of coverage of all individuals who are from the dominant majority ethnicity of their nation-state (for instance, Han Chinese individuals from China itself are rarely referred to as such; there is the assumption that because they are Chinese then they will be Han). Obviously in most of Southern Africa there are no dominant majorities, but in most Western (and indeed many Asian) countries, there are, which affects the coverage of individuals from those areas. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:22, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• "an episode of cancer" - maybe just "cancer" would work? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• I tried it, but when I read it I didn't like it. I feel like just "cancer" would be fine if we were talking about her whole life, but we're talking of a specific year here, and it just seems a little odd to say "survived cancer in 1950".

• "Apartheid" is capitalised here, but I do not think that usual; am I wrong? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• You're right. fixed.

• "who would become" to "who became". Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• " the controversial Black Panther Party" - I would scrap "controversial". I know what you are getting at, but that is probably a WP:Weasel word. Besides, is there a single socio-political activist group that has not been controversial? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• I would agree. This was a later addition, it's not my prose.

• "she lost support among white Americans, and faced hostility from the US government" - I would scrap the comma in the middle here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• I tend to put commas where I can, but okay :)

• "She continued to perform, mostly in African countries, including at several celebrations of independence, and began to write and perform more explicitly political music critical of the apartheid regime, such as Soweto Blues, written in 1977 about the Soweto Uprising by her former husband Hugh Masekela." This is pretty lengthy. How about trimming it in two. Maybe "She continued to perform, mostly in African countries, including at several celebrations of independence. She also began to write and perform more explicitly political music critical of the apartheid regime, such as Soweto Blues, written in 1977 about the Soweto Uprising by her former husband Hugh Masekela." Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:57, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• When mentioning a song title like Soweto Blues, it is standard practice to put it in quotation marks. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:25, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• yes. done.

• "written in 1977 about the Soweto Uprising by her former husband Hugh Masekela." - I'm not sure that this is really important enough information for the lede. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• I'd disagree here. The fact is she is very well known for political music, particularly related to apartheid. But in most cases it's difficult to give that context to her songs in the lede; this is the one example that is prominent enough by itself to do that, so I thought it worthwhile.

• I'm not convinced by the structure of that fourth paragraph. Half of it deals with her final years and half with her legacy. I would take the stuff on her life and merge it into the third paragraph, trimming any prose as necessary. Then I would leave the fourth and final paragraph purely to a discussion of her legacy. That way the paragraph structure is a little neater and cleaner. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:58, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Again, not certain I agree; the collapse of apartheid, and her return to south africa, are very clear markers in her life.

Childhood and family

• "was born in Johannesburg on 4 March 1932, in the township of Prospect" - I think that we could rearrange this so that it runs more smoothly. How about "was born in the Johannesburg township of Prospect on 4 March 1932"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:02, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Rephrased

• "Her mother Christina Makeba was a Swazi traditional South African healer" - "Her Swazi mother, Christina Makeba, was a traditional South African healer". Adding those commas and moving "Swazi" improves the sentence structure quite a bit, IMO. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• I've changed this to "Swazi traditional healer", piping the link, because the source gave the impression that the "traditional" was associated with "Swazi" rather than "South Africa"

• We bring in Stokely Carmichael at a very early juncture here and I worry a little about the reader being thrown around chronologically. Perhaps this section would be better were we to mention "Makeba later said..." without specifying that Carmichael was the source of that information? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Again, not my prose :) Done

• Since it was mine, I'll just say here that I wasn't too happy with it either (it was sort of a rushed job) ... I mentioned Carmichael there out of an abundance of caution about using primary sources. I approve of the current arrangement. Graham87 07:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• "spent her first six months of life in jail" - was she in jail or in prison? The two words are often used synonymously although they also carry different associations in some countries. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:10, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• I think the sources too use the terms interchangeably in this case

• "Methodist primary school" - I would ensure that there is a link to Methodism. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:10, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "she would say later" - "she later said". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:10, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "protestant" should be capitalised. Do we know which Protestant denomination that she was baptised into? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:10, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Afraid not. I've noticed that specific protestant denominations seem to receive less attention outside the west. I'll look, though

• "Makeba lived for a while with her grandmother, and a large number of " - again, I think that this comma is unnecessary. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:10, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "also taught Makeba songs. Her father also " ... "also... also". Bit repetitive. I'd be rid of one of them. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:15, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

Early career

• "Makeba began her professional musical career with the Cuban Brothers," Given that we lack an article on the Cuban Brothers, I would be explicit that they were a band (and if possible state the genre that they worked in). Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• added, and I've said "South Africa band" because there seems to have been a Scottish band of the same name.

• "the South African jazz group the Manhattan Brothers," - "the... the". Bit repetitive. Better as "a South African jazz group, the Manhattan Brothers". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "a mixture of South African songs and songs from popular " - "songs... songs". Again, a bit repetitive. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• replaced one with "pieces"

• "the all-woman group, The Skylarks". Ditto. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "alongside Zimbabwean musician" - Zimbabwean? If we are talking about the situation pre-1980 (as we are here) then I would probably use "Rhodesian". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Good point. I've made it "Rhodesian-born" as there's some doubt over her citizenship

• "Mandela would later remark" - "later remarked". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "In 1956 Gallotone records" - comma after the year; also would probably capitalise "Records" here, given it is a company name. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done, and I managed to find the link this time.

• "in the US" - "in the United States", as this is the first usage of the acronym in the main body of the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "the first record from South Africa " - "first South African record"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• Link Broadway theatre and white South Africans. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "Also in 1959" - add comma. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "be short in secret" - I'm guessing that "shot in secret" is meant, although "filmed in secret" might be better. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Hah yes.

• "managed to organise" - "organised"?

• done

• There seems to be a mix of "US" and "U.S." That needs to be standardised (I prefer the latter, but really it's up to you which to go with). Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done: I prefer the former, but I can switch if you like

• "gave her international recognition" - "brought her international reputation" would perhaps read more smoothly? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Changed "gave" to "brought" but I prefer "recognition", which conveys the sense of the source (single moment of recognition, rather than longlasting reputation, at least at that time) better in my view.

• Oops, yes, I always meant "recognition", not "reputation". That was just a silly error on my part. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:27, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• "recognition, and led to her travelling" - superfluous comma. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "and a cover of "The Click Song" first performed with The Skylarks.[" - perhaps the latter bit could be "which had been first performed with The Skylarks"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

• While in London she had met" - probably scrap the "had". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• done

Exile

• I would rearrange the quotebox and image somewhat. For instance I would move the image to the left and ensure that the quotebox is positioned after the "United States" sub-section rather than just after the "Exile" section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• It seems to me that the quote makes more sense before the picture. So I've moved the picture.

• "outside South Africa, she learned that her mother had died. When she tried to return to South Africa for the funeral, she found that her South African passport" - "South Africa... South Africa... South African". Bit repetitive. Maybe replace the middle example with "home" or something. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• replaced one

• "and the incident left her worried about her family, and a" - "and... and". Needs rewording. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• reworded.

• "Several of Makeba's family members were still in South Africa" - this largely repeats the information already in the sub-section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Shuffled a little: is this better?

• "the apartheid government" - apartheid was more of a policy rather than an accurate description of the government itself. Maybe "white-minority government" or "National Party government" or something like that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Gone with "apartheid and the white minority government"

• "the US continued to flourish. She released many of her most famous hits in the United States" - "US" and then "United States". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• switched.

• That second paragraph is very lengthy. I would consider cutting it in two, perhaps just after "no royalties for her debut album". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• split.

• "However" makes a few appearances in this paragraph. Maybe remove one or two. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• I would also split that third paragraph in two. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• split

• "her presence in the civil rights movement" - "US civil rights movement" or "African-American civil rights movement" (probably the latter). Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done: in this case it's the former.

• "together with Harry Belafonte" - we've already introduced Belafonte in the article so we don't need the forename. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Struck harry :)

• "asking for economic sanctions against Pretoria" - this could be interpreted as meaning that she was calling for sanctions against a particular city, rather than as against the SA government. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• I suppose. Changed.

• "embargo against South Africa stating that weapons" - definitely need a comma after "South Africa". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "with the Civil rights movement in the" - no need for this link as it has already been mentioned. Also, why the capital C? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Shifted the link

• "in an authentic setting" - I'm not fully sure what is meant by this. Could it be expanded or reworded? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Well, I imagine it means with a musical backing that was culturally appropriate: however, that particular prose is not mine, and the source is impossible to find: I tried quite hard.
• What I could do is to remove that frament, and replace it with something like "her use of Sotho, Xhosa, and Swahili lyrics led to her being perceived as a representation of an "authentic" Africa by American audiences." which is what Sizemore Barber, used for the rest of the sentence, says. Vanamonde (talk) 06:59, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• I would go with the change that you suggest. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:48, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• done.

Guinea

• Again, rearrange the quotebox and image so that they don't cluster and bunch up in that top corner. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "Her marriage to Trinidad-born civil rights activist and Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee leader Stokely Carmichael". Carmichael has already been introduced, so scrap all this additional detail here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• We haven't mentioned those details before, though...

• I'm not really sure that they are worth mentioning. I mean, we have a whole article dedicated to Stokely Carmichael if readers want to learn more. Alternately, this additional information could be incorporated into the prose at the first mention of Mr Carmichael. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:17, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• "and placed hidden microphones in her apartment,[32]and the" - deal with the bunching of the citation and the "and". Also "and... and" is a bit repetitive. Restructure. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "not return to the US again" - the "again" is superfluous to this sentence. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "Makeba would later state" - "Makeba later stated". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "of racial policies of the US" - the racial policies? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "FESTAC" - what does this acronym mean? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• It's a funny acronym: I think it comes from FESTival of Arts and Culture, but nobody quite explains it like that, and the full name is "Second World Black and African Festival of Arts and Culture" which is unwieldy. I've linked the term, which I should have done before.

• When mentioning "Pan-African", I would link to Pan-Africanism. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "Masekela wrote Soweto Blues in" - quotation marks needed around the song title. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "15,000–20,000 students " - "15,000 to 20,000 students" or "Between 15,000 and 20,000 students" would read far more smoothly. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "Makeba would later state" - "Makeba later stated". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "songs lyrics" - should be "song's lyrics". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "described as "searingly righteous"" - by whom and what is their expertise? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Tom Cheyney, in the musical magazine "Musician". He was reviewing Welela in 1990, but says this about this song. I've added some of this: the specific reviewers name seemed less important than the publication.

• "In 1978 Makeba divorced Carmichael and married Bageot Bah, an airline executive, in 1980" - perhaps "In 1978, Makeba divorced Carmichael and in 1980 she then married Bageot Bah, an airline executive", or something of that nature. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Tweaked.

Brussels

• "Her daughter Bongi died in childbirth in 1985, after which Makeba decided" - perhaps better as "After her daughter Bongi died during childbirth in 1985, Makeba decided..." Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• " documented on music video" - what is meant by "music video" here; perhaps we could get a link? 19:49, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Not my prose, not sure what it means, and I doubt it adds anything, as video recording is quite routine. Removed.

• There is an inconsistent italicisation of "Graceland". When referencing the album itself, italics are required. When mentioning the tour, maybe not. Currently we have Graceland Tour but I would suggest "Graceland tour" as the appropriate formatting. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "who was a "sangoma" ("a healer")." - the term sangoma has already been introduced earlier in the article, when it was italicised. Maybe just "who was a sangoma". No need for the repetition of "a healer". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "the cultural boycott of the country". Do we have a link? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:45, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Afraid not. It's an article that needs writing. We have "academic boycott" and "foreign relations of South Africa" but the latter doesn't even have a section.

• "languages including" - comma between these two words. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "including German, French, Dutch, Italian and Spanish." - Definitely need a citation at the end of this sentence as it seems unrelated to the following (referenced) sentence. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Hmm, my apologies, that was a piece of information from a dodgy website which I removed: should have removed the text too.

• "and broadcast to 67 countries and an audience of 600 million" - " and broadcast to an audience of 600 million across 67 countries"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "knew of Nelson Mandela" - just "Mandela", cut the "Nelson". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

Return to South Africa

• "announced that Nelson Mandela" - again, just "Mandela". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "persuaded Miriam Makeba to return" - just "Makeba". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "combined jazz, R&B, pop, and African music, and was a hit in Africa" - link any genres not previously appearing in the article, and maybe change "African music" to something more specific; "traditional African music", "several African genres" etc? Also, "hit in Africa" might work better as "hit across Africa"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "the 1976 Soweto youth uprisings" - cut the duplink, which already appears in an earlier section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "mother, "Angelina", " - no need for quote marks around a character's name. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "she was described as playing with "immense dignity"." - who described her role in this way? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• NYT review: named the newspaper.

Musical styles and themes

• "The music that she performed has been described" - who provided this description? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Robin Denselow. Link

• A citation is needed that she was associated with Afropop. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• It's the citation at the end of the next sentence.

• I though that it might be, but the two sentences seem rather thematically unrelated. In cases like this, I would definitely duplicate the reference to avoid confusion. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:12, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• "under apartheid,[9][25] once stating "people..." - I would turn this into two separate sentences. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Done

• "which scholars have described" - maybe provide the name of said scholars. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Is this necessary? They won't be known outside their field, and their names are in the shortened footnote.

• " the skin-lighteners common among women at the time" - common among "black women" or "African women", perhaps? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Source says South African women, gone with that.

Death and legacy

• I would definitely carve this section up. The first paragraph, discussing her death, would sit far more comfortably at the end of the "Return to South Africa" section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Moved.

• "Nelson Mandela called" - again, just "Mandela". Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• Remove the duplicate quotation mark just before Mandela's quote. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• done

• "the cruelty of apartheid" - I'm not seriously claiming that apartheid wasn't cruel, but I think that this sort of language may carry unnecessary baggage that Wikipedia should avoid. 20:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Perhaps you're right. Here's the quote: "When they exiled Makeba, white South African authorities created a more effective symbol of apartheid’s cruelty than she could have done herself." From Feldstein (2013). What would you suggest? Vanamonde (talk) 08:04, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• This could be solved by using quotation marks and making it obvious that Feldstein is being cited. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• I think that this was the final point, User:Vanamonde93. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: I've used the quote. Cheers, Vanamonde (talk) 14:35, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Awards and recognition

• I would definitely avoid having a list of bullet points, which may contravene WP:Trivia. Perhaps consider merging the information here into a couple of paragraphs that could be added to the legacy section (perhaps renamed "Reception and legacy"?) Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Honestly, MBO, I disagree. This is an acceptable use of an embedded list (WP:EMBED). The awards listed here are all backed by secondary sources: they are not taken straight from websites of those awards. They are also quite disparate. A prose section will not read well in my view. Vanamonde (talk) 08:00, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• That's okay. I'm uneasy about lists, but it's not a crucial issue at GAN. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:09, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• @Vanamonde93:: "On 4 March 2013 Google honored..." is attached to a bullet point on the film Mama Africa. Would it not be better to merge it with the bullet point on the 2017 Google Doodle? Also, we need to remove the double link to Google Doodle. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:44, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• True. done. Vanamonde (talk) 11:58, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Other prose issues

• "Western" is sometimes capitalised and sometimes not. Standardise (I would go with the capitalised form, but again it is up to you). Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:15, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Our article on the Western world capitalizes, so I have gone with that.

• There is a lot of alternating between "US and "United States". With the exception of the very first mention, I would always use the acronym. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:15, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Per a convention suggested to me by Simon Burchell, I've gone with "United States" at the first mention in each section, and US thereafter.

Images

• It would be nice to get some images for the early sections, if possible. I appreciate that there may not be free images of Makeba herself, but perhaps we could find some images of some of the places where she grew up or associated with? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• For instance, this picture of Belafonte (File:Harry Belafonte singing 1954.jpg) or this of Mandela (File:Young Mandela.jpg). Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
• I've added one picture of her in Israel. I'm wondering if we could use a fair-use image of her album covers, but I'm not sure if the criteria cover it; what do you think? If that doesn't work, I think I'll add a Belafonte image. Also trying to find something for the last two sections. Any ideas?
• I'm wondering if a collage of the other musicians credited with popularizing world music along with Makeba would be useful here, but I'm also ignorant of how to manufacture collages. I will give it a shot. Vanamonde (talk) 08:08, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi @Vanamonde93:; if you have a chance to look into the "cruelty" quote, then that would be great and I think that I would move along and pass this as a GA. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:56, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

All in all, this has been some really good work, @Vanamonde93:. Congratulations on getting the article up to this standard. I am content that it meets all of the GA-criteria, being a well balanced and properly sourced overview of the subject matter. I am happy to pass this as a Good Article! Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:37, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Sources

@Midnightblueowl: I've been looking over the source material here as a starting point to polishing this, and I find that there are two significant sources I have incomplete access to; the Bordowitz and Schwartz-Bart sources. Can you help with those? I've found some books and journal sources that I will add over the next couple of days, but these two do seem to be important. @Graham87: Since you're a major contributor here; MBO and I are planning to take this to FAC in the near future; as a major contributor, any input you have would be useful, and your copyedits are, of course, welcomed. Vanamonde (talk) 04:05, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Hmm, I've looked at trying to access Bordowitz and Schwartz-Bart, unfortunately I am unable to in both cases. Google Books doesn't seem a lot of help either. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:30, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have since been able to get hold of Bordowitz; and I have found that the title was actually rather misleading. It is a four page piece, by Makeba herself; the only secondary information comes from an "about the author" section somewhere in the back. So not the best source, and I have been trying to replace it. I think the issue we are going to have to deal with for Makeba is that there are fewer sources focused solely on her (the exception are her numerous obituaries, some of which are scholarly, like the Allen source) and so a lot of the supplementary detail is going to have to come from scholarly sources that examine some aspect of her career (like [1]) and/or from the obituaries themselves. Are there any major sources you think we're missing at the moment? Vanamonde (talk) 10:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Some thoughts:

• "and the all-woman group The Skylarks" - to avoid the repetition of "the", how about "an all-woman group"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:27, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• "Her talent for singing had been recognised when she was a child, and she began singing professionally in the 1950s" - "talent... talent". How about "Her vocal talents were recognised..."? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:35, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• "traditional African melodies" do we know if she was selecting melodies from across the continent or rather just South African, or perhaps Southern African melodies? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:39, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• It's a mix, I think. The sources differ. Vanamonde (talk) 10:07, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• When mentioning " anti-apartheid film" we could link to anti-apartheid movement? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:39, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• "Makeba's career flourished in the US" - maybe "United States", rather than using the acronym on the very first appearance? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• "near Johannesburg in the racially segregated township of Prospect" might read better as "in the racially segregated township of Prospect, near Johannesburg"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:03, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• All of the suggestions look good to me! Vanamonde (talk) 10:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: Please feel free to make these and other tweaks yourself: I've worked on the article so much that it becomes difficult for me to step back and look at the prose critically. Vanamonde (talk) 11:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:; do you have any great objection to the reformatting of the "Bibliography" section? There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it by Wikipedia policy, but I'm planning on expanding it and really think that we could use a cleaner, more aesthetically pleasing layout. I have my own favoured system (which I used over at Nelson Mandela and Steve Biko) but I'm not saying that we must use that system; if you really like the bullet points, I don't mind retaining them, but I think that a three column division will be much more accessible than the current four column one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:44, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oh good lord, is it really four columns on your screen? I switched from 30em to 24 because 30 was giving me just one column, but then my machine is really quite small...which also explains my slew of typos, btw. Thanks for cleaning those up. I am rather fond of bullet points, but feel free to tweak the column size. I do think, though, that the columns size should be consistent across the subsections. Vanamonde (talk) 04:32, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Graham87: Do you happen to know how to deal with with names or quotations that use non-SA English? Vanamonde (talk) 07:03, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Hmmm, I just checked and this part of the Manual of Style seems to disagree with my edit. I'll revert it then. Graham87 08:17, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Thanks. Yes, I guess it applies to your edit, but there was also the Feldstein quote in the image section I was worried about. Vanamonde (talk) 08:35, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: Thanks for the ce. I'm not completely convinced about publication location, though. It seems to me we should not assume a Western knowledge base; ie either we provide country information for all sources or no sources, not just non-US sources. Thoughts? Vanamonde (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oh, I totally agree. Despite the impression that my edit summary must have given, I was not trying to single out New York itself - I removed country names from all such sources in that list (at least I think I did). Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:00, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: Glad we're in agreement: I made a few more reference tweaks [2]. I'll go ahead and nominate this sometime tomorrow; if there's things that still need work before then, let me know, and I'll hold off. Cheers, Vanamonde (talk) 12:40, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
• I should probably also ping @Graham87: do you have any suggestions as to things that need attention before an FAC? Or, for that matter, do you wish to be a co-nom? Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 12:54, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

• @Vanamonde93: Thanks for the ping. I can't think of anything that needs to be done at this point for a FAC nom, for what it's worth, but I'm not that experienced with the modern FAC system. Primarily for that reason, I don't wish to co-nominate the page ... you've pretty much done 90% of the work here! Graham87 13:58, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

• Sure, I've done a lot of the recent stuff, but you've done a lot of work on this over the years, and you also cleaned up a lot of my untidiness. In any case, you are always welcome to comment, but no pressure! Vanamonde (talk) 16:32, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks; I'll keep an eye on it. I hope it works out! Graham87 10:41, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Miriam Makeba --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

"text questions"

@Piledhigheranddeeper: The answers to your questions are "no" and "no"; I don't see how that was in doubt, though. Vanamonde (talk) 15:54, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Pata Pata

Interesting ref from the "Pata Pata" article, which means we might need to change a few things here:

• Allingham, Rob (2009). "FROM "NOMA KUMNYAMA" TO "PATA PATA": A HISTORY". African Music. 8 (3): 117–131. doi:10.21504/amj.v8i3.1831. JSTOR 20788931.

I have access to that ref, but I can't get to the Ravell-Pinto refernce on the Miriam Makeba page, which mentions that a disagreement happened between Makeba and Belafonte during the recording of "Pata Pata" (which seems rather unlikely in light of the Allingham ref). @Vanamonde93:, could you help out here? I probably won't be able to do more on this tonight (my time). Graham87 13:37, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

On it, but I'm a bit busy at the moment, it might take me a day or so. Vanamonde (talk) 14:32, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Were's Sivuca?

Please, sorry my bad English... So... After 1964, her musical director (and musician in tours) does Sivuca. This article forgot him! References:

1. L.A. Times
2. Folha de S.Paulo (in portuguese)

André Koehne (talk) 10:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Bessie Head

Given that a scholarly source mentioned this incident, it's quite possibly worth including, but I'm uncomfortable with the way in which it's currently mentioned. It doesn't have a coherent link to the content before or after it, nor does it make it clear that Makeba's prejudice was about Head being too white, not too black (which is a reasonable interpretation). Vanamonde (Talk) 23:26, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah as you can tell from my edit summaries, I was also a bit dubious about this new paragraph. There's also another possible piece of context: in the Google Books excerpt I can see it talks about Makeba's first husband being coloured and how his family allegedly treated her. Of course, we can't use that book directly as a source for all that. There's also the matter of the fact we're only hearing one side of the story ... perhaps Makeba responded to Head's allegations somewhere. Due to Wikipedia's extreme prominence and the very surprising nature of the allegations, I now think it's better to not have them in at all than to have them in there with the wrong or no context. Therefore despite me being up most of last night chasing these allegations down, I've gone and removed them. Graham87 04:24, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, much appreciated. I haven't had the time I would want to do any digging. In the absence of further detail, I think this is best kept out at the moment. Even if we are discussing this as prejudice on Makeba's part, we need to know if it was disdain for people with white heritage; prejudice against coloured people specifically; or something else, and at the moment, we don't have that. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:01, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Black Panther leader Stokely Carmichael

I don't recall Carmichael being a Black Panther, much less a leader. He was, I believe, a member of the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) until he embraced violent revolution. Curious Chicano (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

He was affiliated with the Black Panther party, including in leadership positions, for a period between his work with the SNCC and his move to Guinea. Our article about him has the details. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:27, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Oxford Research Encyclopedia of African History article

While trying to make clarifications in response to this edit, I discovered that there's a very comprehensive and apparently recent article about Makeba in the online Oxford Research Encyclopedia of African History. It's available to anyone who can access The Wikipedia Library using the Oxford Research Encyclopedias page. I used it to straighten out her childhood but there's probably more that can be done with it if I or someone else feels inclined. In particular, I don't know if the car accident she went through as a passenger (in which she was physically unharmed) needs a mention; this is the first source I've had access to that describes it comprehensively. There might be other things from her adult life that could be added at some point, both at this article and that of her daughter Bongi. I removed the bit from this page about her saying she was shy, as I couldn't find a way to make it flow well with the rewritten text; the cited ref (the Economist obituary) just mentioned that she said this to an unnamed reporter and didn't really give a timeframe. I hope I haven't messed anything up ... feel free to make any further corrections necessary. Graham87 13:10, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

A very useful article, thanks for pointing me to it. I was pleased to see at least a few instances where I read a detail, came here to add it, and found we already had; but there's also a decent amount of detail we could use. It's also a comprehensive source review, as best as I can tell, and I'm going to look up at least a couple of sources it lists. Please feel free to tweak anything I've added thus far. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:47, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

A fair point [3], Graham...I suspect on review it's better to have the loc parameter, but I was lazy yesterday. I can work through adding them later. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:45, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

No worries; I got them all, I think. I was wondering why the footnote numbers in the recent text were so high even though the ref was already used. I was using copy and paste to make the references when I made my recent edits. Graham87 04:30, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

References