Talk:Millwall F.C./GA3

GA Review

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Reviewer: Casliber (talk • contribs • count) 21:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

• Alright then, I'll make straighforward copyedits as I go and jot down queries below: Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Millwall's supporters are synonymous with their terrace chant "no one likes us, we don't care". - a person can't be synonymous with a song, maybe "Millwall's supporters are known for their terrace chant "no one likes us, we don't care"." or "Millwall's supporters are renowned for their terrace chant "no one likes us, we don't care"." or something like it.

Millwall Rovers was formed by the workers of J.T. Morton... - "J.T. Morton" needs a descriptor to make it flow, as in "Millwall Rovers was formed by the workers of docking company' J.T. Morton..." or whatever the company does.

Good - continuing intermittently as my free time has evaporated today. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

In April 1889, a resolution was passed for Millwall to drop 'Rovers' from their name and they were now playing under the name Millwall Athletic - leaves me wondering..any reason cited why the name change?

The league expanded the radius of clubs throughout the country, which had never been further south than Birmingham City before - huh? not right as Arsenal had been admitted to the league in 1893–94..... (also the radius of clubs didn't increase, it was the radius of the league, but hte whole shebang might need an overhaul...I think dropping the sentence is prudent.

cite tags

Later in the decade, Millwall established a record of 59 home games without defeat (43 wins and 16 draws) from 22 August 1964 to 14 January 1967. - any particular outstanding players that were key to this? Maybe should be added.

This was a team that included Harry Cripps, Dennis Burnett, Derek Possee, Barry Kitchener, Eamon Dunphy, Keith Weller, Doug Allder and Bryan King. - a bit listy - maybe break it up by listing their positions or just some other facts as to why they were important- doesn't have to be much, but is worth a few more words if this was a notable segment of history. Yeah, much better.

Rejigging content - now the Millwall_F.C.#Supporters_and_hooliganism is pretty long compared to the rest of the article, so needs to be tightened up a bit (have a look at Wikipedia:Summary style for ideas) - it seems to go into more depth than one daughter article, Millwall Bushwackers (the daughter article does mention F-Troop, which is worth mentioning in the main article (???)) - so possibly some material can be transferred over. This might be a bit complicated and I will see if I can help. The main reason is that the parent article is getting pretty hefty....

This section has always been an extremely difficult subject to tackle, would you suggest any sections be completely removed? TBM10 (talk) did a stellar job trying to copyedit it. I should probably wait to touch this or transfer anything over to Millwall Bushwackers until you give it a going over with a fine-tooth comb. Cheers mate. BillyBatty (talk) 02:13, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Lemme think about it a bit. I'll look over it again and try and figure something out. Might ask some Bushwacker related questions as I go. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:35, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Found some interesting things - the 1977 Panorama documentary. I can also see some pages of the Robson book on google books and am having a read now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Damn, am getting well and truly sidetracked by looking at youtube clips. It is tricky to figure out how much space should cover the fans....I'll get a second opinion. To complicate matters, there is more commentary at No one likes us, we don't care, much of the content of which is great commentary for the bushwhackers or even main article....Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:50, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

I need to sleep on this. More later. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:25, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. The supporters are often more widely known and reported on more than the club itself. The term 'no one likes us, we don't care' is used commonly by journalists at a metaphor for staunch defiance. Many articles are often completely unrelated to sport, examples include pieces on finance, politics and religion: Economist, Guardian, Telegraph. Unlike most football club articles on wikipedia, which would just have a few paragraphs about the supporters, Millwall's should probably be a more prominant piece. Supporters are namechecked as far afield as Australia, which makes me think of the common joke among Millwall fans, that they are "the biggest 'little club' in the world". BillyBatty (talk) 06:17, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The best book I have ever read about the club and supporters is written by Watford supporting journalist, Michael Calvin, who writes for the Daily Mirror. It's called Life, Death and Football. He was given all access to the club for a whole season. You don't have to be a fan of Millwall to appreciate it, just a fan of the game. If you ever get a chance, superb read. Truly illuminating. Quote from page 5: "No One Likes Us, We Don't Care. Not so much an anthem, as a way of life. Millwall's notoriety is their birthright." BillyBatty (talk) 06:33, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip - sounds like a book that needs to be referenced in this article. The Robson book I can see segments of on google books, but it is pretty dry and more "scholarly" with alot of interpretations that are possibly too specialised for this article. I was trying to find some more info on when and why F-Troop became Bushwhackers that could be referenced. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:50, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to find references that are not youtube videos! The Panorama video also mentions Treatment, the young firm who aspire to graduate to F-Troop. BillyBatty (talk) 09:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, we can use the Panorama as a reference, but make sure it is properly cited.

In the 1958–59 season, Millwall became a founding member of Division Four.[19] The team's form was poor during the late 1950s and early 1960s, playing five seasons in the fourth tier of English football for the first time in their history. - I'd rejig this to make it more chronological, so something like: "Millwall's form was poor during the late 1950s and early 1960s, and the they were relegated into (and became a founding member of) Division Four

in the 1958–59 season. They remained in the fourth tier of English football for the first time in their history." (presuming the five seasons immediately followed this (????) NB: Make sure each bit is cited.

Thinking about the lead - I'd add two sentences - one about the fame (or notoriety) of the fans, and one along the lines of which tiers in the league they have usually played in over the years (i.e. something like "the team has spent most of its existence in the second or third tier of the Football League, with two seasons' of top flight football 1988-90)" or some overview in a nutshell like that (?)

How would you define the notoriety/infamy in the lead? There must be a better way to word "Millwall's supporters are renowned for their terrace chant "no one likes us, we don't care" and have a long, notorious history associated with football hooliganism." Should the worldwide infamy be touched upon? There are endless international sources that can be cited. BillyBatty (talk) 14:25, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree, it isn't the chant that is well known, but behaviour. Will have a think too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:57, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Some uncited paras in the Colours, crest and nickname ...I think we're nearly done here :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:34, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

There we go, I think that's a better read. Added who changed kit colour, removed what I couldn't cite and combined those pesky stubby paras for you. :) Wasn't sure if to make the kit sponsor box collapsable or to leave? BillyBatty (talk) 16:07, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Nah, tha's fine. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:07, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

Overall:

Pass or Fail:

I'll try and pick up the calvin book online and have a read, maybe then a crack at FAC. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:10, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

FA? I'd be up for helping with that. Thanks for all your pointers mate! BillyBatty (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2011 (UTC)