Talk:Midnight Syndicate/Archive 6

Unprotecting with warning

I'll give you all the chance to edit the page again. Do your best to collaborate peaceably, because if this unprotection degenerates again I'll open an arbitration request on the article and arbitration is no walk in the park. Durova^Charge! 00:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Understood. I will replace the old with my CITED edits and remove the false statements about label seeking and the "huge" remark. I intend to leave the rest. Thank you. GuardianZ 00:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

OK. I have made some edits using some of the text I wrote above and some from the earlier protected version. All I have to say is that this article is NOT a press release for the band, so keep that in mind and don't inflate anything. All the credits and awards and everything is there. It's all truthful and cited (I cannot control the order of the references, it automatically falls in order of where a statement is cited). What could not be cited was removed. I removed one reference that did not support anything (ie: it was an interview in The Scene in which Douglas claims credit for the work done by Vargo). Because it was part of this whole mess and due to the fact it is disputed by earlier statements made by Douglas before the fallout, it cannot be used to support any of the statements in the article. I left the other refs that Skinny posted as parts of them could be used to support his statements. GuardianZ 02:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The active editors on this page all appear to have a current or former affiliation with the band. That's problematic, yet it also places you in a unique position to improve this article through cited material and media samples. Be aware that Wikipedia's standard for inclusion is verifiability. So if we assume for purposes of discussion that one band member made a false statement at a published interview (or even if the reporter got the statement wrong), the appropriate way to handle that is to dryly state such-and-such a publication reported this fact in an interview... with a line citation. If other publicly available material disputes that claim then include that and the citation as well. Wikipedia doesn't take sides.

If you get this right, including the unaddressed NPOV issues, then I could see this gaining acceptance as a good article or even a featured article. That would be of greatest benefit to all concerned: current and former band members, fans, Wikipedia, and the public in general. I tend to assume good faith longer than most editors and in that interest I'm giving this a genuine chance to work.

I've lurked this article and talk page much more actively in the past couple of months than my contributions suggest - giving this whole matter a very long leash - and it's on the short leash now. I might as well state candidly that if I post an arbitration request part of that request will include the very high probability that the disputants are embittered former business associates. You may weigh for yourselves the chances of whether the committee will accept the case and end it by restricting editing privileges. Durova^Charge! 04:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

HUGE MISTAKE!!! Unprotecting this page will quickly return us to these lenghty tirades from Mr. Vargo & his other chat names. In the beginning of November there was a loose agreement reached between Skinny & Oroboros/Guardian. In less than 36 hours, the Vargo team reverted back to their old ways. Look for more of that to come! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Indigo1032 (talk • contribs)

Well, now you see how Skinny and his cohorts try to make this article into a press release and promotion for the band and it's business partners. He removed my cites. He previously argued that Linfaldia was the label and now admits it isn't, then sticks in his Entity company when it was the distributor not the label or the publisher, and all that after I tried to be fair and list Linfaldia and Entity and Monolith together because they were on the album credits together, and I further specified the dates to avoid confusion. He promotes his distribution company Entity to the top of the article in a manner that is obviously a self-promo as opposed to being at the bottom in chronological order, when Entity finally became a full-time distributor. I am unsure of what "other" distributors he means but obviously this is not the place for such.

He removed a link to an audio file (not a website mind you, but a simple audio file) that features a very significant interview with all three members and which was used to cite the statement that the band created music based on Vargo's gothic works (Skinny also removed that statement). That interview is in no way defamatory, and yet he continues to remove it because it tells a very different story than anything being told to the Press today. Note: While Skinny removed the radio spot, he also linked to the Haunted Attraction article that is inaccurate in crediting the appropriate band members with their work.

And finally, we see Indigo pop up here making false accusations. I am not Vargo, nor am I affiliated with him. In fact, I didn't even get around to emailing Vargo's company like I said I would. Now I don't have to, Skinny just admitted that Linfaldia wasn't the label. In case anyone still can't believe that I am just a concerned citizen, just look on Amazon. There's many people there who have been the victims of the same propaganda, censorship and misleading press. I agree that opening this to further editing will incite more of Skinny's meat/sock-puppets, but protecting an inaccurate and misleading version is just as bad.

We COULD cite that "magazine A" reported such-and-such and "magazine B" reported this-and-that. I would be just fine with that, since it just proves what's been going on. But I forsee doing that would only incite even more edit wars. Plus, I think it was already attempted. I too have spent a lot more time on this than I had originally thought possible. I think my first edit was merely to start a request for a page for Nox Arcana, then I found the MS page and added all the other previous members of MS including Vargo. Then the band's promoter User:Lizstjames signed in and removed all the names. After that it went back and forth until the band finally decided to partially credit the other people they worked with. But then it went into major promotional overdrive. It's just nuts. All I could do was try to give the article some balance. It should have been removed at that point as self-promoting one's own band is an abuse of Wiki. I think someone else pointed out that it doesn't even meet the standards for a music article. Anyway, when it started up again (the promotion of all that false PR) I came back here to see what was happening, and sure enough, Douglas' gang were at it again. So, again, I tried for something accurate and balanced. I never even knew of the policy that Peacemaker quoted, but I suppose that was my goal all along. I don't agree with what been going on, but I do like some of their cds and I think the work should be fairly and honestly credited, and if the history is to be reported it should be honestly and fairly reported. (Has anyone checked Indigo to see if it's Skinny? or to see if it's a Chardon IP? I'll bet a million it is.) GuardianZ 22:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Response from Skinny McGee to GuardianZ

I am so sick of all your lies, it is quite literally driving me crazy. Here we go again…. I’ll copy what you’ve stated above and then explain why I disagree. By the way, I'm not Edward Douglas. I can only assume you keep asserting that to somehow lend more validity to your arguments, but you are mistaken.

YOU: He previously argued that Linfaldia was the label and now admits it isn't, then sticks in his Entity company when it was the distributor not the label or the publisher, and all that after I tried to be fair and list Linfaldia and Entity and Monolith together because they were on the album credits together, and I further specified the dates to avoid confusion.

ME: I never argued that Linfaldia was the label – they were the publisher. I just corrected the information (replacing Linfaldia with Entity and leaving Monolith). I also corrected the dates.

YOU: He promotes his distribution company Entity to the top of the article in a manner that is obviously a self-promo as opposed to being at the bottom in chronological order, when Entity finally became a full-time distributor. I am unsure of what "other" distributors he means but obviously this is not the place for such.

ME: It is not a self-promo. I just thought it fit best there. You had it stuck in a very odd place in the middle of the article where it made no sense. Oh no, I remember. You want people to think Entity was not the distributor right from the beginning, so you inserted it after Vargo and the band split. Not true. I would have no objection to moving it closer to the end of the formation section, but the 'full-time' thing has got to go.

YOU: He removed a link to an audio file (not a website mind you, but a simple audio file) that features a very significant interview with all three members and which was used to cite the statement that the band created music based on Vargo's gothic works (Skinny also removed that statement). That interview is in no way defamatory, and yet he continues to remove it because it tells a very different story than anything being told to the Press today.

ME: So not true it’s funny. It was a link to a defamatory website, not an audio file. Also, the audio file was citing a statement that the band released “Born of the Night” in September 1998, just in time for Halloween. That, for whatever bizarro reason, was cited twice, when I don’t think even one ref is necessary. But, I left one in. I see now that you have already added the ref back in, but moved it to the statement you mention above. I’ll look for the audio file to be up soon so we can change the reference. Finally, I removed the statement that the band created music based on Vargo's gothic works because I don't believe it's true. We'll see if your file proves it.

YOU: Note: While Skinny removed the radio spot, he also linked to the Haunted Attraction article that is inaccurate in crediting the appropriate band members with their work.

ME: I did not add a link to the Haunted Attraction article. I just beefed up the reference you already had in the article.

YOU: We COULD cite that "magazine A" reported such-and-such and "magazine B" reported this-and-that. I would be just fine with that, since it just proves what's been going on.

ME: Yes, we could do that. I suppose it would probably prove that Joseph Vargo is a despicable human being who has been defaming Midnight Syndicate every chance he gets.

YOU: I am not Vargo, nor am I affiliated with him.

and later

YOU: I think my first edit was merely to start a request for a page for Nox Arcana, then I found the MS page and added all the other previous members of MS including Vargo.

ME: Your first edit to the article as GuardianZ is here [1]. Vargo promotion right from the start. Given the similarity in the style and theme of your edits, I would submit that you used to go by the name Blooferlady who admitted to being Vargo’s business manager here [2]. I also notice that Blooferlady only turned her attention to the Midnight Syndicate article after her Joseph Vargo and Nox Arcana articles were deleted due to lack of notability.

YOU: Anyway, when it started up again (the promotion of all that false PR) I came back here to see what was happening, and sure enough, Douglas' gang were at it again.

ME: The only reason this whole thing started up again is because someone, probably you, added a link to the defamatory site that’s causing us so many problems here. All I did was remove the link to that site. Then you decided to take the opportunity to cause a whole lot of trouble once again.

YOU: I don't agree with what been going on, but I do like some of their cds and I think the work should be fairly and honestly credited, and if the history is to be reported it should be honestly and fairly reported.

ME: I agree. That’s why I’m here.

YOU: Has anyone checked Indigo to see if it's Skinny? or to see if it's a Chardon IP? I'll bet a million it is.

ME: Indigo1032 is not me. Quite frankly I don’t even know what that individual is talking about in his/her most recent edit.

Finally, I think if you honestly looked at my edits you would see they were fairly minor. I removed the reference to that site as I have been doing for months because I do not think it has any place here. I removed a few phrases that I have been disputing on the talk page and which I think serve only to promote Vargo and/or put down the band. I made a million small edits rather than one huge one so that I could clearly explain what I was doing in each step. I really didn’t think there was going to be much for you to dispute, but you continue to amaze me with your appetite for conflict. - Skinny McGee 00:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You're insane. Firstly, the sound file is http://www.legionofthenight.com/sounds/Interview.mp3 That is not a link to a page in a website; it is a link directly to a MP3. Nothing opens but a sound player (Windows Media player or Quicktime). Secondly, the link is not defamatory. You simply so not like the fact that it proves that Douglas lied to the press. Finally, in the interview Douglas states clearly that the cd is based on Vargo's gothic works, and that Vargo wanted to do a Halloween cd so that Douglas could focus more of his cinefusion thing. Douglas states the two things separately. I'll spend some time typing up a transcript for you since you refuse to acknowledge it. And I'm not the Blooferlady either. And from what I read, I think that she "turned her attention" to actually removing the Vargo page when it was attacked by the folks from Midnight Syndicate. She made no attacks. She only requested the page be removed. And, at least she didn't hide who she was. I will have the file uploaded soon. I emailed for permission and got it. Also, you did a heck of a lot of "moving" of things. Nothing I wrote put down the band. But I did not write anything that was as blatant of a self-promo that you did. I only stated the facts that were verifiable and I didn't over-inflate them like you have done all along. I guess we'll see what arbritration is like. GuardianZ 05:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I did not mean the interview was defamatory - just that it was housed on a defamatory website. Also, can you prove that the Vargo article was attacked by the folks from Midnight Syndicate? That's quite an accusation. - Skinny McGee 18:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Per Dionyseus and Skinny removing my citation and statements, I uploaded the interview to a free hosting website. Now you should not have a problem. Anyone may listen to it and the only decription is that of the people being interviewed. I also uploaded the cd cover under fair use. Also, the citation for the publishing stuff was previously removed so I put that back in. I did not previously use that to cite the release date (duh) but only placed it at the end of the sentence as is recommended by the guidelines. In this case I had no choice but to place it right after in the middle of the sentence because you guys are being so difficult. GuardianZ 17:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not certain Wikipedia allows referencing audio clips of radio interviews, especially one that was uploaded to a free hosting website. I'll ask those who are experienced with fair use policies. Dionyseus 18:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You cited the radio interview at the end of a sentence which read "Published by Vargo's Monolith Graphics and distributed through Douglas' Entity Productions, Born of the Night was released in September 1998, just in time for the Halloween season." (see here [3]) The interview does not support that statement at all and the statement was cited twice, so I took that one off. - Skinny McGee 18:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't play stupid. The radio interview supports the statement that it was Vargo's concept and suggestion to do a Halloween CD. Also the other articles state that (1) Born of the Night is a "graveyard smash hit" and in Douglas' own words he states it selling almost 14,000 cds during Halloween. The citations are VALID. And if you don't approve of the interview being hosted elsewhere, it just proves you don't like the truth being made available to readers and listeners. There is not policy against a free hosting service and it contained no pop-ups. GuardianZ 20:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Douglas claims that "Born of the Night" sold 14,000 CDs during it's first Halloween? Where? The figures I've seen are closer to 1,800. - Skinny McGee 00:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

As for the publisher/producer credit, not only is is verified by the album booklet, as we already discussed, and Vargo's copyright, and by the interview in which the DJ states that the project was directed by Vargo, but also by the cite you removed for the Plain Dealer. I see it was placed in again, so that's fine. Like I said, the cites are supposed to go at the end of a sentence. It supports part of that sentence while another might support the other half od the sentence. I am going to have to start citing every single word it seems. As for BMI, as I understand it, Douglas failed to credit Vargo on BMI just like he failed to originally include him on the original copyright form, which was later ammended copyright in 2002. GuardianZ 20:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, you are wrong on every count. - 23:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Quotes from press and radio

Last sentence in a photo caption (Plain Dealer, October 30, 2000) reads:

"In 1998 Monolith Graphics produced the cd Born of the Night which streamlined 
the music of local band Midnight Syndicate to appeal to a gothic audience. The success 
of Born of the Night spawned Midnight Syndicate's latest release, Realm of Shadows. "

The 1998 radio interview for the release of Born of the Night: Edward Douglas states:

"Joe suggested we do a Halloween CD...  Joe wanted to create a Halloween CD that 
would have music that would reflect his artwork... to conceptualize a CD that would go 
along with the gothic artwork that you create... am I right Joe?"

The interview does not state that Douglas "approached" Vargo with the Born of the Night concept, nor any concept for that matter. It only states that Douglas gave Vargo his first self-titled Midnight Syndicate cd upon hearing the music that Vargo had chosen to play in his art gallery.

Again, Skinny, you are twisting the facts. Also, because this is all recorded long before the band breakup and before Edward started making false statements to the press, it trumps the statements made by Douglas in his 2006 interview in Haunted Attraction. GuardianZ 20:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the source for statement "instant success" and sales of Born of the Night:

Plain Dealer, March 3, 2000,  "Born of the Night was a hit at haunted houses. 
It sold more than 14,000 copies according to Douglas." 

I would consider the 2000+ sales between Sept and Nov 1998, plus the 12,000+ sold in 1999 to be considered "instant success" when compared to the sales of any other band that does not play out. GuardianZ 22:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue you on this, but I think 'instant success' would imply a much shorter timeframe than 14 months to most people. - Skinny McGee 23:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Request for arbitration filed

I have submitted a request for arbitration for this article. Active editors may wish to prepare a request statement. An arbitration clerk will probably place the request on the active page shortly. Durova^Charge! 04:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Plain Dealer articles referenced by GuardianZ

Given GuardianZ's penchant to exaggerate the truth and the rather unbelievable items she was attributing to two Plain Dealer articles, I decided to do some research of my own. I went online and pulled the archives. The results, below, show that GuardianZ will just make things up to support her claims.

"Music to Chill By" by Larry Aylward, The Plain Dealer, October 25, 1998, Sunday Magazine, Page 6 (transcript of entire article is below)

"Born of the Night" is a graveyard smash.

The CD from Midnight Syndicate, a Cleveland area band specializing in gothic instrumentals, is heard at Dover Lake Valley of Terror and Bloodview haunted houses, as well as during performances of "Dracula" by the Tree City Players, a Kent community theater group.

"Born of the Night" ($9.99) is the second CD for Midnight Syndicate, which was formed last year by Edwrd Douglas, a 26-year-old receiving clerk from Willoughby Hills. Douglas and Gavin Goszka, a 28-year-old music salesman from Mentor, wrote and performed the keyboard-heavy music, what Douglas calls "cine-fusion," or "music to spark the imagination."

Cleveland artist Joseph Vargo, 38, contributed the voice-overs, designed the artwork for the album and acted as executive producer.

Midnight Syndicate plans another Halloween CD next year. The band also wants to record an album with a lighter sound. But Douglas, whose CD collection includes artists from Barry Manilow to Nine Inch Nails, says any music will be created with "cine-fusion" in mind.

"We want to stimulate people's imaginations," he says.

Caption: Edward Douglas, Joseph Vargo and Gavin Goszka" recorded "Born of the Night" at Goszka's home studio. It quickly sold out it's first pressing of 1,000 copies.''

GuardianZ is claiming the above article supports some portion of this sentence: Published by Vargo's Monolith Graphics[3] and co-distributed through Douglas' Entity Productions, Born of the Night was released in September 1998, just in time for the Halloween season.[4] Nothing in the article even remotely supports this sentence.

"Haunting tunes are Goth band's specialty" by Julie E. Washington, The Plain Dealer, October 30, 2000, Section E, Page 1

The article is too long to recreate here. However, I can point some things out:

• GuardianZ claims the last sentence of the photo caption reads as follows (see above for her original comment):

In 1998 Monolith Graphics produced the cd Born of the Night which streamlined the music of local band Midnight Syndicate to appeal to a gothic audience. The success of Born of the Night spawned Midnight Syndicate's latest release, Realm of Shadows.'

I’m looking at the photo right now. Here is the entire caption:

Gavin Goszka, left, and Edward Douglas write music independently and later combine their work to create the tracks on Midnight Syndicate’s latest CD, “Realm of Shadows.” The group is at work on a new recording that will use a turn-of-the-century asylum as a theme.

Thus, GuardianZ is clearly lying again.

• GuardianZ is using this article to support the claim that Monolith Graphics published “Born of the Night.” The article does not contain that information. Monolith Graphics is not even mentioned in the article, let alone credited as the publisher.

- Skinny McGee 23:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Skinny: You are talking about the wrong article and trying to MISLEAD. The caption for March 3, 2000 for the article on the release part y for Realm of Shadows reads as I quoted.

Featured in the photo are Midnight Syndicate. Gavin Goszka (left, 30 yr. Mentor) and Edward Douglas 
(right, 28 yr. Chardon) write music independently and later combine their work to create the tracks for 
their latest release Realm of Shadows. Photo by Christine Filipak. Cleveland-based Monolith 
Graphics has been creating and distributing fantasy artwork since 1991. Their line of merchandise 
includes posters, t-shirts, calendars and postcards. In 1998 Monolith Graphics produced the cd  
Born of the Night which streamlined the music of local band Midnight Syndicate to appeal to a gothic 
audience. The success of Born of the Night spawned Midnight Syndicate's latest release, 
Realm of Shadows.

It is below a picture of Gavin and Edward in front of a castle setting. I added the reference to the article. GuardianZ 23:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it is your inability to keep your facts straight that is causing all this trouble. When you first cited this caption above, you referenced the article dated October 30, 2000. Thus, the mistake was yours, not mine. - Skinny McGee 23:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I just pulled the archived article by John Soeder that appeared in The Plain Dealer on March 3, 2000. The article I'm looking at does not have a photo - let alone the caption you're quoting. Once again, there is no mention of Monolith Graphics anywhere. Here's the article in it's entirety -

Halloween in March

You've heard of "Christmas in July" sales?

Get ready for "Halloween in March" when Midnight Syndicate celebrates the release of its new "Realm of Shadows" CD with a listening party at 9 p.m. tomorrow at the Chamber, 11816 Detroit Ave., Lakewood.

"This one is a bit more haunting and eerie atmospherically," says Edward Douglas of his gothic-minded group's fourth [sic] collection of minor-key mood music. The finished product features 20 compositions by Douglas and bandmate Gavin Goszka, as well as a song by recording engineer Tim Blue and artwork by another local talent, Joseph Vargo.

"I would call 'Realm of Shadows' a gothic horror soundscape. Our goal is to create music that will transport listeners to a world of their own creation. We want to fill their heads with images," says Douglas, 27.

Midnight Syndicate's last release, "Born of the Night," was a hit at haunted houses. It sold more than 14,000 copies, according to Douglas, who plugged the album at trade shows geared toward the Halloween entertainment industry. No tricks are planned for tomorrow night, but there will be treats. Limited-edition CDs, posters and T-shirts will be given to the first 60 guests at the Chamber. Admission to the "Realm of Shadows" bash is free until 10 p.m.; later, the cover is $5 for party-goers between the ages of 18 and 20, $3 for those 21 and over.

I've caught you lying again and again, and I'm very tired of it. I believe we are extremely close to a version of the article everyone can agree with, but I cannot sit by while you misrepresent references. No one disputes Vargo had a significant role in "Born of the Night" and his significance is clear in the article, but cannot pretend that Douglas and Goszka weren't part of it, too. - Skinny McGee 00:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

One other thing. I made sure to place my cites this time right after each phrase. Since you are playing stupid and keep balking at what they refer to, I had no choice but to place them in the middle of whole sentences, immediately after a word or phrase, so you can't possibly get confused as to the reference. Now, stop this. I have made my points very clear and they are all cited, and I practically quote it verbatim. BUT the point of writing an article is NOT to quote word for word. BUT, if you INSIST, I will quote word for word all of the material, including what the Plain Dealer and The Scene wrote about the first CD.GuardianZ 23:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that everytime I prove you're wrong about something, you threaten me with something else? - Skinny McGee 00:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Skinny, You have proven me RIGHT. To recap:

1. The reference to the album being an instant sucess is per the Larry Aylward statement that it is a "Graveyeard hit" and also to the Douglas statement that over 14,000 copies sold in just 18 months (October 1998 to March 2000), which is referenced in the March, 2, 2000 article entitled "Gothic Horror Rock Featured This Weekend."

2. The producer stuff was ALREADY established by the album credits. Produced by Joseph Vargo for Monolith Graphics. But the Plain Dealer caption from March 2000 also supports the statement, PLUS the 1998 radio interview supports the statement because the DJ addresses Joseph Vargo as the director, THEN asks him "How does one go about PRODUCING an album like this?" At which point he answers with something like "I knew how to market this kind of stuff..." "it takes talent" and "don't give up on your dreams," etc.

Skinny, WHY are you arguing my references and keep removing them? They are as black and white and clearly stated as possible? And what threat are you talking about? I feel like I am constantly being attacked for each and every little word. Meanwhile YOU are printing false statements that are PROVEN to be false. WHY are you doing this? Can you not see what you just finished typing?

Please indicate where I have left out Douglas and Gavin? How have I done that? Gavin did not create the concept. Douglas did not come to Vargo with an idea in mind for a Halloween CD. And Vargo paid for and directed the album. Saying what Vargo DID is not hurting the others, and they get credit for writing the music. WHY are you going so nuts over me crediting what Vargo did? GuardianZ 01:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Your point #1 - I already told you I disagree with calling that an instant success, but I'm not going to argue about it.

Your point #2 - That is not what the album credits say. They say "Executive Producer: Joseph Vargo for Monolith Graphics." How you can possibly think the manner in which a DJ (particularly one for whom English appears to be a second language) asks a question has any encyclopedic value is beyond me.

Your next paragraph - I'm arguing your references because the articles do not support what you claim. On the other hand, you keep removing my information from the Haunted Attraction article, but fail to mention it in your edit summaries. Why is that?

Your closing paragraph just continues to show you are not looking at all the facts. No one is trying to diminish Vargo's contributions - he is fairly credited in the article. The radio interview and the article in Haunted Attraction both indicate that Douglas was interested in focusing on a darker theme for the next Midnight Syndicate CD. Otherwise, why would he have approached Vargo? - Skinny McGee 02:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, go ahead and give me the link you have for the archive for the March 3, 2000 PD article. I will upload the photo and caption that was retrieved directly from the PD archives and emailed to me, and we can compare notes. OK? I'll return here with a link after I can figure out how to upload the PDF.GuardianZ 01:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Correction: The photo ID shows a "date input" of 10/3/2000 12:00AM". I am sorry that I said March. I was looking at the "3" and thinking March. But the photo caption DOES read as I quoted. Maybe the photo goes with the 10/30/2000 article and not the March article. In any case, all three refs support my statements. And none of that hurts the other guys. I will try to upload what the PD gave me later. I want to catch a TV show right now. GuardianZ 02:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

One last item. You keep removing the line "Published by Vargo's Monolith Graphics..." WHY? Do you have proof that anyone else published or paid for the album? Can you show proof that Entity published or paid for the album? Otherwise, it remains "Published by Vargo's Monolith Graphics and co-distributed by Monolith and Entity." GuardianZ 02:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I have told you, at least a thousand times before, the CD booklet indicates that "Born of the Night" was published by Linfaldia Records. No one disputes that Joseph Vargo/Monolith Graphics was the Executive Producer. - Skinny McGee 02:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Skinny, please don't start a new edit war

I recommend we agree at this point that the Vargo edits stay as is and that the Angus edits be left out. You have admitted to Vargo being a significant influence, but now you are trying to introduce information that you know is already disputed just to cloud the issue. If you insist on introducing disputed info that has already been proven wrong, I have no choice but to use the website you don't like as defense in the dispute. Rather than fight over that, let's just stop here. Angus was not a significant band member, had no input on the Born of the Night album or any other albums later. If he really DID say the Halloween stuff, then why didn't Edward work with Angus? His introduction into the article is only a way of clouding the issue and throwing another firecracker into the works. I think you should just leave it for the time being until we get the other issues resolved... publisher and all that. GuardianZ 15:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not starting an edit war. There has been an edit war going on here for quite some time. The version you have reverted to was never agreed upon. First of all, you continue to remove the fact that it was Douglas who made the first contact with Vargo (this is supported very clearly in your radio interview). You continue to reinsert that Monolith Graphics was the publisher despite having no evidence (I have already shown that The Plain Dealer article you are referencing (by Julie Washington) doesn’t even mention Monolith Graphics, let alone name them as publisher and the CD booklets list Linfaldia Records). You also continue to insert a Larry Aylward/Plain Dealer reference where it is neither appropriate (article does not say that) nor necessary as we agree on that fact. Finally, Amazon.com is not a valid reference – apparently anyone can put anything they want out there. Why would the band announce a CD was out of print if it wasn’t? That makes no sense.

I do not understand why you object to the information about Scott Angus. I don’t see how it clouds the issue at all. We know from the WERE interview that Douglas approached Vargo with the Midnight Syndicate debut album. Why would he have done this if he wasn’t interested in exploring darker themes? The inclusion of that information does not diminish Vargo’s contributions, but just adds more backstory. I just thought it would add to what was already in the article about how the band moved from their original eclectic style to their current incarnation.

Finally, you continue to attempt to intimidate me by threatening to bring in Vargo’s defamatory website. That website has no place here, per Wikipedia guidelines (see WP:Verifiability), as it is a “source of dubious reliability.” To quote: “Sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about the author(s). Articles about such sources should not repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources.” As this article is about Midnight Syndicate, not Joseph Vargo, the website should not be used. Even if you were to argue the article is about Vargo (which, of course, it isn’t), the material still wouldn’t be allowable under the guidelines.… “Material from self-published sources, and published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources in articles about the author(s) of the material, so long as:

· it is relevant to their notability;

· it is not contentious;

· it is not unduly self-serving;

· it does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;

· there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it.” - Skinny McGee 17:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Skinny, I only referenced external material, which that site also references. Your arguement above is moot. GuardianZ 12:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The album credits on Born of the Night do not say "published by Linfaldia." What is does say is "Executive Producer Joseph Vargo for Monolith Graphics" and again as I said, the Monolith logo is listed first in the line, then the Entity logo. Linfaldia seems to be listed only for the BMI stuff. The album itself is published by Monolith and that is something you cannot prove to be otherwise. Anyway, if you would agree to stop trying to "one-up" the edits, then we could agree to say "co-distributed by Monolith/Entity," and stop there. Remove the Linfaldia reference, as it is in dispute as well. And I will agree to remove the Amazon reference that although the cds are claimed to be out of print they are not out of print. I think that's just the band trying to harm sales for Vargo anyway. Lets have at least one full day of agreement before starting into new issues, OK?GuardianZ 16:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me start by saying I would love to have a full day of agreement. However, the album credits do list Linfaldia Records as the publisher. If you look at the back of the CD down on the bottom, where the copyrights and all that stuff are listed, it's right there. The "P" with the circle around it indicates that Linfaldia Records was the publisher. Once again, in music, the publisher has nothing to do with who financed the project. And why is Vargo trying to sell Midnight Syndicate CDs if the band announced they were out of print? That seems weird to me. - Skinny McGee 17:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

If you really want agreement, why do you keep posting false info on the page after we agree on something? You are starting a whole new edit war over this Angus guy. You know that the Haunted Attraction article is false press from Douglas. It was proven false by the radio interview of 1998. You get proven wrong on one thing then start up a new fight on a new thing. As for why MS lists the cds as out of print when they are not, maybe they are trying to hurt sales for Vargo. GuardianZ 20:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

As I've said before, the information about Douglas' discussion with Scott Angus does not in any way contradict (nor is it contradicted by) the radio interview. It is entirely possible (and supported by the Haunted Attraction article) that Douglas was thinking about doing a Halloween CD and that's why he approached Vargo at his art gallery (as supported by the radio interview). Then, Vargo suggested the Halloween CD be based on his artwork (as supported by the radio interview and numerous other references). The two pieces work together to give a more complete picture, and to make the article a little more interesting. My addition of this piece in no way diminishes what appears later in the article. - Skinny McGee 20:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you are REALLY reaching. And "supposing" something is not verifiable—and this is not a guessing game at this point, not after how you've been deceptively editing from the start. You post it at the top of the article like you are trying to contradict the interview, presenting it first as if it somehow warrants that. If you want to post it then do so in order of when it was published (in 2006). According to Douglas' own words in 1998, he only approached Vargo with his self-titled CD and wanted to do his cinefusion thing while Vargo wanted to go the gothic/horror route. It was Vargo who suggested a Halloween CD, not the other way around—and that is Douglas saying that, not Vargo. If this Angus guy really did come up with the idea and really did approach Edward with that idea, why didn't Edward work with him on Born of the Night. Why hasn't the band EVER worked with him on any CD since the very first self-titled release. Why is he not thanked on any of the albums... even on Out of the Darkness? Speaking of that, while I was reading the "thank yous" on Out of the Darkness I also noticed that the band thanks Leonard and Jeanne Pickel (Leanard Pickel being the editor of Haunted Attraction magazine and the person who conducted the interview you are sourcing). Considering that the CD was published well before the interview and that the band thanks Leonard (and Jeanne, who I assume is Leanard's wife since no mention of her appears on the site), it would seem that these people are close friends and that the Haunted Attraction magazine interview may not have been conducted by an impartial reporter. Hence, anything in that interview is highly questionable in terms of verifiability. GuardianZ 08:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I have requested for the article to be protected

I have requested for the article to be protected, I don't think User:GuardianZ would stop edit warring until that happens. Dionyseus 18:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Dionyseus, you are the one inciting this war along with Skinny. You both are misrepresenting the facts and making false statements. GuardianZ 19:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Misuse of references by Skinny McGee

Skinny, according to the reference you insist upon using from Haunted Attraction (which I believe is unverifiable anyway), Scott Angus only "asked if Edward had ever thought of doing a good Halloween sound effects CD." According to that reference, it happened after the March show which Douglas states was unsuccessful. You keep removing the text referenced by the radio interview that credits Vargo with the entire concept, as quoted by Douglas. You also removed the portion that states it was Vargo (not Douglas) who suggested the idea of doing a Halloween CD while it was Douglas who stated that he wanted to be more focused on his cinefusion, and that according to Douglas' own words it was the music Vargo played in his art gallery that prempted their working together. You are purposely misleading readers by removing that text and by only crediting Vargo with suggesting the title. He did a lot more than just suggest an album title. If you would also like to credit him for all of the song titles on both albums, then that would help, but you must be truthful and stop removing the facts about how he directed the cds and came up with the concepts and themes. I suggest that your next edit should use my text [4] which was already a considerable compromise on my part. I have already compromised and allowed your unverified text about Angus remain, if dated and quoted exactly, but I will not let you change that text and remove my text to suit your purpose of discrediting Vargo. You are not attempting to compromise. You have only re-written the facts to suit your purpose. GuardianZ 00:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Not unexpectedly, I totally disagree. The information I added about Scott Angus is verified in that it was in the Haunted Attraction article - that's the reference. I am not removing text referenced by the radio interview, just restating it to give what I think is a more balanced view. My rewrite says Vargo suggested naming the CD "Born of the Night" and basing it on his artwork. I believe the Haunted Attraction article and the radio interview both support the idea that Douglas was also thinking about a darker theme. If Douglas was not interested in doing a darker themed CD, then why would he have introduced himself to Vargo (as stated in the radio interview)? Why would Douglas have been attracted to the music in the gallery if he wasn't interested in that sort of thing himself? I have not removed any of his credits for either CD and my version still states his concept of basing the CD on his art. I think if you try to look at what I've edited from an outsider's perspective (instead of just comparing it to what you wrote), you would see that Vargo is given full credit. Looking at it that way has been helpful to me. - Skinny McGee 00:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I have been reading this from an outsider's POV all along, and I'm glad you are finally realizing it is what you needed to do too. Even so, you are still placing unwarrented emphasis on Douglas. According to the radio interview and also the Ohio Online interview, Vargo did much more than simply title some songs. The concept was his, and he helped direct the musicians in shaping the sound for the albums. You make it sound like Douglas decided to go this dark music route just out of thin air, that he was never influenced at all by Vargo, moving emphasis onto Douglas who did not actually conceive of the idea, when it has already been established that it was Vargo who directed and conceptualized the albums. You still feel the need to place extra emphasis on Douglas for work he is not credited with doing. He wrote and performed the music, and that was it. According to all accounts, Douglas wanted to pursue his filmmaking career and his "cinefusion" idea, not make a Halloween-themed album, and certaintly not one that was orchestrated like the music Vargo was playing, otherwise he never would have said so in the interview.

I suggest:

According to a 2006 interview with Haunted Attraction magazine, a drummer performing in the March 1998 show, Scott Angus, asked Douglas if he had ever thought of doing a good Halloween sound effects CD. According to a 1998 interview with Cleveland's WERE radio, gothic fantasy artist Joseph Vargo suggested to Douglas that they focus on creating a Halloween cd along the lines of popular movie soundtracks such as the music Vargo had chosen to play in his gothic art gallery. Douglas was first introduced to Joseph Vargo at the grand opening of his art gallery in October 1997 and the two met periodically while Douglas was promoting his first album. When those efforts were financially unsuccessful, Douglas teamed up with Joseph Vargo, and they formulated a plan to create an album based on Vargo's gothic artwork and concepts. Douglas pulled together songs from the first Midnight Syndicate CD, which were also previously included in his film The Dead Matter. Composer Gavin Goszka, formerly a solo-artist in a project called Lore, also joined Douglas and Vargo in creating a darker sound aimed at fans of gothic music, the horror genre, and haunted attractions. Douglas and Goszka wrote and performed all the music on the album, while Vargo served as executive producer and creative director of the project, wrote and performed the vocals and narrations, and designed the cover art and packaging. All of the songs were titled after Vargo's most popular paintings. The groundbreaking album Born of the Night was released in September 1998 through Vargo's Monolith Graphics and Douglas' Entity Productions, hitting the horror market just in time for the Halloween season. It was Midnight Syndicate's first critically acclaimed gothic/horror soundtrack and proved to be an instant success, establishing Midnight Syndicate's trademark sound.

In March 2000, Realm of Shadows followed suit with the same flavor of dark instrumental music and another gothic setting. Douglas and Goszka wrote all of the music for this album while Vargo wrote and performed the opening narration and theme story. Again, the songs were titled after Vargo's artworks. Both albums were featured as offical soundtracks for Universal Studios' Halloween Horror Nights, and used in several other major theme parks during Halloween, such as Busch Gardens, Cedar Point and Thorpe Park's Fright Nights event. The heavy metal band King Diamond also featured tracks from Born of the Night as opening music for their 2000 US tour. Afterwards, Vargo and Midnight Syndicate chose to work separately of one another on future projects.

Anyway, that's how it happened from all I have read. I suggest that you avoid surmising about what Douglas might have intended and stick to what actually happened and to what Douglas admits to, rather than use of tricky sentence structure to give a different sense of what happened. If you are contending the this Angus person really said to Douglas what he said, then don't make it sound like it happened before Vargo's input and don't try to make it out like Douglas hired Vargo like some freelance artist. From all accounts, this was Vargo's concept and he managed it "from inception to completion" (per Douglas). GuardianZ 07:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I still disagree completely. You made it very clear from what you just wrote that you believe Vargo should have all the credit, and I just don’t think that’s how it happened. When you say “by all accounts” you seem to be referring to one radio interview. I don’t care to fight with you over this. I feel the current version is quite encyclopedic in that it cites a variety of sources to give an even, balanced view of what took place. It was clearly a collaboration, and that’s how the article reads now. It can be a collaboration and be based on Vargo’s artwork.

As far as Scott Angus, the Haunted Attraction article states he brought up the sound effects CD during production of the first Midnight Syndicate CD – before the multi-media show and before Douglas met Vargo. It did come before Vargo’s input, that’s why it’s there. Anyway, as I've said before, this takes nothing away from Vargo.

Also, I hope you noticed that I did make the change you suggested yesterday regarding the song titles. - Skinny McGee 15:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the H.A. article Angus is mentioned after the multimedia show. There is no indication of any other "session" prior to that. The fact that it is never even mentioned prior to 2006 is highly questionable, and frankly it screws up the entire flow of the article, but you insist on sticking it in there where it doesn't belong. Also, the other sources I referred to include the radio interview, the Ohio Online and the cd credits. Douglas is not credited at all with the concept of the cd, while Vargo is credited with the concept and direction per Douglas and Gavin in those interviews. They state "Joe has a good ear for music and helped us when we’d start to get off the track." and Douglas states: "Joe wanted to do a Halloween cd... it allowed me to focus on cinefusion while Joe created a cd based on his gothic artwork... Gavin and I did the music and that's that." I think you need to make that clear, that's all I'm saying. You are trying to word it so that Douglas is credited with more than he actually did. You already say he wrote the music, why must you also diminish Vargo's work by making it seem like Douglas was the one who made the final decisions and conceived the project. According to the credits and the interviews, Vargo made all the decisions (as an Exec Producer) and was the director for the entire project and also directed how the sound would be (ie: music producer by definition). Even Douglas said in the radio interview that he and Gavin were like the "lackies". I wouldn't put that in the article, but Douglas said it. I just think you feel like any credit for Vargo is too much for you to accept, and that no matter how I word his credits, you must re-word them to make it appear as if it were Douglas who "decided" to allow Vargo to pay for and direct the project. C'mon! If I were to write "Vargo decided to produce the album despite that the first MS cd was financially unsuccesssful" how would YOU react? Look at it from an outside perspective. GuardianZ 00:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Skinny, please avoid using deceptive terms/adjectives and removing cites

Your recent removal of the phrase "According to the 2006 interview in Haunted Attraction..." is a deceptive edit. Because that reference is contradicted by the one directly below it from 1998, BOTH must remain intact to be balanced. Also, please stop removing the phrases such as those describing concept and roles, and reducing Vargo's contributions to merely naming a few songs. His other contributions are clearly verified in the 1998 radio interview, and you repeated removal of that text is very disruptive and deceptive. Also, your continued attempts to make the first cd sound dark like the others is deceptive. The cd is predominantly pop/light-rock oriented. Of the 17 tracks, 3 are instrumental pieces that could be considered "dark" and that appeared on later albums. 3 of 17 is not a majority, and it is deceptive to say so. GuardianZ 03:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

GuardianZ, please stop accusing me of doing things I am clearly not doing

No, it is not a deceptive edit and I'm not removing any 'cites'. The sentence is referenced as being from Haunted attraction magazine, so it's repetitive to state that. Also, as I've stated several times before, it does not contradict anything. I remove the statements regarding concept and roles because I don't believe them to be accurate based on the radio interview and the Haunted Attraction article. I do not reduce Vargo's contributions to 'merely naming a few songs' and to say that is utterly ridiculous. Do you read my edits before you revert? I make no attempt, let alone continued attempts, to make the first disk sound like the others. All the musical genres on the disk are mentioned in the article. But, there were definitely several dark tracks (more than three) and to reduce it to 'light rock' is wrong and it is deceptive to say that. - Skinny McGee 01:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I just checked the CD. I would say 10 of the 17 tracks have dark themes. And two more have sci-fi/fantasy themes. That is certainly a majority. - Skinny McGee 02:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's a start.

I think this is the first time that you sort of made a compromise without having to do a "one up." You are sort of doing the "one-up" thing in reverse. Like, if you have to remove one of your edits, you still have to remove one of mine. You can't just give up one of yours and be nice. For example, I notice that while removing the Scott Angus remark of yours, you also removed the credit to Vargo for coming up with the concept of doing a Halloween album in the first place. And for some reason you feel it is neccessary to state that Edward and Gavin write the music even though both are already named as composers, yet you remove the work that Vargo did such as directing and influencing the musicians. I never removed any of the other members' work descriptions, and yet you won't compromise without some sort of reducement of Vargo, so I still have to think on that a bit. Right now, I'm thinking that it needs to be said. As long as you don't add anything later to diminish Vargo's credits, I'll let it go for now. GuardianZ 02:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Upon futher consideration, I think you did deceptively edit out a few things. Here's my thoughts:

1) The Vargo concept statement. It IS indeed referenced in the radio interview. Quotes from Edward Douglas from radio interview include: "I heard the music that he [Joe] had chosen to play in his art gallery... and Joe said, would you like to do a Halloween CD... and I thought that would be a great opportunity because it allows me to be more focused on the Cinefusion concept, while at the same time Joe wanted to create a CD that would have music that would reflect his artwork. Am, I right? You wanted to conceptualize an album that went along with the gothic artwork that you create?" It's all sort of a run-on statement by Edward, but those are the main points that support the statement that Vargo conceptualized the Born f the Night CD. Joseph Vargo is credited by Edward in 1998 with the concept. There is absolutely no doubt. Add to that the statement by Edward in Ohio Online, which he says, "Joe has a good ear for music and helped us when we’d start to get off the track," plus the creative director credit that the DJ mentions in the radio interview, and both those sources support that Vargo indeed directed the musicians in creating this darker sound. What's totally verifiable is that both statements are made by Edward Douglas, who is only now trying to change that credit that he formally had no problem with attributing to Vargo.

2) Also, I looked and listened to the first CD again, and I find that only 3 actually SOUND darker/eerie in tone, the same 3 that appeared a bit later on Born of the Night. But that there are 7 songs that might be considered "dark" if one only looks at the titles. Words such as "Killer", "Hell..." and "Death" being in the titles could give a dark impression, but "Forklift Death" and "Hellacious Acres" are very much pop-sounding, comedy pieces. "Premonitions of a Killer" is definitely Rap/Hip-Hop. Also, the songs are all listed as "Jazz" in Apple itunes. Some sound like soft-jazzy-rock, one is a techno mix. I wouldn't even classify any as industrial. Even counting "dark" and "death" and similar adjectives as titles descriptions, 7 is not a "majority." I think you are trying to place false emphasis on the first CD to build it up like it is similar to the later albums. It's totally misleading. I would just change that majortiy statement. Maybe you could say something like, "An experimental debut of mutiple genres including... (leave the list of genres) then... which helped to support the Cinefusion concept... (then lead into the Cinefusion concept). It does support the Cinefusion concept in that Edward was trying to do a movie soundtrack to a non-exsistant movie. Perhaps a sampling of what a movie might contain. But not a horror movie. It just doesn't sound like that.

Anyway, I really don't see why you'd be trying to make the first CD sound like it was mostly dark, when it wasn't. It was an admirable effort to showcase various styles, but like it was stated in several other interviews it couldn't find an audience because it was too eclectic. Vargo provided the focus that the band needed. And my pointing out that fact is not dimishing anything that this band did later, it's just the fact. GuardianZ 00:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. Dionyseus 01:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Pardon me? I just quoted interviews, song titles and described the music as it sounds. I can also quote reviews of the first cd, one in the Scene magazize that called it "so hokey it's laughable" but I was trying to be more diplomatic. Douglas also describes it as "very eclectic" but it was not focused and not dark, and that is an opinion held by several music reviewers. It's stated that Vargo gave the band its direction and focus in several interviews, one of which I also quoted above. How is all of that original research? I am going by what was stated by the band in those interviews. I didn't write it; I'm quoting from those sources. Stop trying to cause more trouble. You haven't provided ANY research, just your own slanted opinion. GuardianZ 05:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

What's up with removing credits to Gavin?

Skinny, I know why you don't want to credit Vargo, even though the sources clearly state that the Born of the Night album was his concept. Edward is already credited with the cinefusion concept and that is also verified, but why did you remove Gavin's credit with his solo work with Lore? It's mentioned in several interviews (too many to reference each one just for that brief statement, but still verifiable) and is certainly noteworthy in the history of this band. What is your reasoning? GuardianZ 00:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I never removed any verified credits for Vargo. Secondly, I believe someone in the workshop said the information about Lore was promotional or otherwise superfluous, so I removed it since I was editing in that area anyway. It's back in now. - Skinny McGee 02:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The HA ref does not mention Vargo. I believe you are using the reference there just to place it higher in the list, as you complained before about refs placement. Only the radio interview supports those statements and also specifies that he conceptualized and directed the album. Douglas says that it was Vargo's concept to do Born of the Night, a Halloween CD, and that it allowed Douglas to focus more on his own cinefusion concept. Douglas makes a clear distinction there between both concepts: the cinefusion concept being what he did on CD1 and the more gothic/Halloween direction that Vargo provided on CD2. So, your wording is not only a bit clunky, as I said before, but is misleading. This statement: with Vargo developing the concept, which was based on his gothic artwork means that the album overall was conceptualized by Vargo and based on his artwork. Your statement: with Vargo developing the concept that the disc be based on his gothic artwork makes it sound like his only concept was to base it on his artwork. Obviously, that is not true. This, as with many of your past statements, are subtly misleading. And since this is the final statement we seem to be having a problem with, I will try propose something different. GuardianZ 01:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not care about the order of the refs. Our disagreement in the past was in the order of references before we added the citations (I thought most recent first was most appropriate, you wanted them the other way). I added the Haunted Attraction ref to support that both Vargo and Douglas wanted to do a Halloween CD. You are exactly right in what you state above - that is exactly why I'm writing it as I am. I firmly believe the references indicate both had the idea to do a Halloween CD, and I reinserted the HA ref to back that up. As I've said before, why else would Douglas have approached Vargo at his gallery? Of course he thought they could work together on something dark. Additionally, Vargo had the idea to base the CD on his artwork. Finally, I think you are misinterpreting Douglas' statement regarding cinefusion. The whole concept of creating a storyline to an instrumental CD (as has been done with all their releases) is cinefusion. - Skinny McGee 01:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Your disregard for what is stated in the sources is noted. The cinefusion concept is not in question. Edward is credited with that fully. However, Edward did not create a storyline. In fact, his idea of cinefusion is that the listener create his own story. The album concept and story arc for Born of the Night and the direction that the music took (being that it was based on his art) is credited to Vargo per several sources, radio, Paragon, Dark Realms, though it is unnecessary to repeat refs. In any case, it is clearly stated by Edward in all three of those early sources. Also, I remind you of the Halloween statements (who suggested what and when). The Haunted Attraction statements do not credit Douglas with that concept, only with following the concept but not in creating it, not directing it, nor even suggesting it, and the HA interview only acts to defer credit away from Vargo (an act to mislead), plus the supposed credit given in HA never appeared elsewhere before. It is impossible to accept some of the HA material given that 3 or more previous sources state an opposing story. We went over that and finally decided to simply leave it out rather than rehash it. GuardianZ 07:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Concept for Born of the Night

When editing this article, we are supposed to contribute information from all appropriate sources without making any judgments. Here is what I have been able to find about how Born of the Night was created:

• From Haunted Attraction Magazine

… Ed knew he had to step back and focus his approach if he wanted to keep Midnight Syndicate alive. After a recording session, drummer Scott Angus asked Ed, “Have you ever thought of doing a good Halloween sound effects CD?” While an all-sound effects CD wouldn’t provide the artistic expression that Ed was looking for, the idea of focusing on exclusively dark themes seemed like a natural progression for Midnight Syndicate. At the time there were no good, dark Halloween CDs available. The only offerings outside of the “Monster Mash”-style compilations were inexpensive sound effects tapes produced (and recycled) with little attention paid to quality. Haunted Houses at the time were stuck with the same sound effects tapes and handful of overused horror movie soundtracks. As a result, music was being underutilized in the attractions. “There weren’t a lot of good options available,” says Ed. “I wanted to try and change that.”

Using material from The Dead Matter score, Midnight Syndicate, and the score to the live show, Ed put together 20 or so songs and sketches that would form the basis for a new exclusively horror-based Midnight Syndicate CD….

Although not perfectly written, I can find no evidence that Douglas and Scott Angus recorded together except during production of the first CD, so that must be when this conversation occurred. As such, we have information from a published source that Douglas concluded he had to focus his approach. Further, we see that he was thinking of a darker themed CD, based on what Angus said.

• From Paragon Magazine (quoting Douglas)

It was after that disc that I decided to do an album with a more focused theme and sound. The dark instrumental tracks on that first disc were the strongest (and my favorite) so the dark sound of Midnight Syndicate took from there. Additionally, at the time there were no good Halloween CDs.

I had originally approached Joseph because I really liked the traditional gothic styling of his artwork.

So we see that after Midnight Syndicate, Douglas decided to focus on a dark sound. Also, we see that it was Douglas who approached Vargo.

• From Krepuskulum (quoting Douglas)

After that album, I really wanted to create a CD with a more focused theme. Since a lot of the tracks on the first album were darker in nature and I have always been a fan of gothic/horror film and art, it seemed natural to do a gothic/horror album.

Combined with the radio reference you cite, I think we can conclude that both wanted to do a darker CD. There are certainly a variety of sources to support the idea that Douglas was thinking of doing a Halloween CD. While I don’t think any major changes are needed to the article, I am going to put the Haunted Attraction reference back in because I think it complements the other refs.

Regarding your mention of Dark Realms, that magazine is published and edited by Joseph Vargo. Certainly not NPOV.

On a separate note, my research has revealed several sources that prominently list “rock” as one of the genres included in the Midnight Syndicate release. As such, I will add that genre back to the article.

Thanks, Skinny McGee 20:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said earlier, Haunted Attraction is not a reliable source given that Edward seems to know the family. Dark Realms is different in that all three band members are interviewed, so it's much more reliable. It's not one person saying something that went unchecked. Where is your reference to "rock"? Also, there's no doubt Douglas "decided: to do a dark CD, after Joseph Vargo suggested it and came up with the concept and offered to pay for it. I'm sure the two were once friends and that Douglas was a fan of Vargo's. That doesn't mean you need to just make up stuff. GuardianZ 05:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I find it interesting that you are perfectly willing to accept an article published in Joseph Vargo’s own magazine, but dispute an article written by someone with whom Douglas might be acquainted. I think your logic is a little off on that one. As I mentioned, we’re supposed to provide a complete picture from all appropriate sources. The fact that you won’t accept that as a reference, even when I don’t change the text of the article, is very telling. Also, Durova already addressed your concerns in the arbitration workshop.

I’ll add rock back in as a genre on the first CD and add a reference. Hopefully that will satisfy you. Don’t know why you’re making such a big deal about it.

No, there is no doubt about when Douglas decided to do a dark CD. I just quoted several articles that show how he came up with it. I’m not making anything up. - Skinny McGee 16:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your Paragon interview:

Edward is asked:

Who was it that stood up one day and said, “Lets take some background music, throw in some eerie sound effects, and make people feel as if they are living a horror movie!?”

The answer Edward gives never answers that question. Instead he talks about the first CD and never actually says that it was Vargo who came up with the concept. But in the radio interview (when Vargo was present) Edward credits him.

Then Edward admits:

Joseph Vargo was more than just the artist for the first two discs. He was integrally involved with the production of Born of the Night from its inception to its completion.

But AFTER Joseph Vargo started Nox Arcana, Edward denies his producer the credit he once gave him. And he did so in the press and right here on Wiki.

Hmmmm. I think we DO need to evaluate the sources. The HA source is a bad one. Also the concept is already supported with the radio interview, so I don't think you need it twice. Thanks! GuardianZ 05:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the interview in Paragon, not sure what you mean to show here. Perhaps Douglas never said it was Vargo because it wasn’t only Vargo. Seems like I’ve already shown that both had the idea. Douglas did answer the question you claim he doesn’t – the question is asking about the whole cine-fusion concept, which he explains (actually, part of that is what I quoted above).

And here’s a bit more of Ed’s entire response concerning Vargo:

He was integrally involved with the production of Born of the Night from its inception to its completion. Not as much musically but as far as developing the cohesive look of the disc, adding the voice-over elements and working as a kind of Executive Producer.

I can find articles in which Vargo is not mentioned, but I cannot find anyplace where Douglas denies that Vargo was Executive Producer.

I think you’re putting entirely too much stock in the radio interview and possibly the Dark Realms article, and ignoring everything else. It’s not supposed to work like that. The radio interview only tells part of the story. The Haunted Attraction reference is necessary because it completes the story. - Skinny McGee 16:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Not surprisingly, you are putting too much stock the Haunted Attraction article. As for the Dark Realms article, it is way more reliable precisely because it was published BEFORE the fallout between Vargo and Douglas. And because it features all 3 members, Dark Realms stands as a far more accurate depiction of the history than anything else that only features Douglas as the speaker. Had the editor of Haunted Attraction contacted Vargo to ask for his input, I would feel more inclined to believe what I read there. Also, the 1998 radio interview seems to tell the whole story. Again, Douglas had every opportunity to make different statements (he talked most of the time as it was). He could've credited Scott Angus, or claimed credit for coming up with the Halloween Cd concept, but he did not. Why? I believe it was because Vargo was present... how could Douglas claim something that was Vargo's when Vargo was present? All 3 members were present during the interview, and Gavin's statements also back up Vargo as the project leader. (Gavin refers to himself and Douglas a "lackeys"). I'm sure you are only being told one part of the story by the band, or maybe you are relying on only the HA article to gather your "facts." I think you and other editors need to compare the old and new material in order to get to the real story. The article I speak of in which Douglas denies that Vargo is a producer is right here on Wiki. Go look in the Evidence page of the arbitration case. You and Douglas keep making a distinction between producer/exec producer. What Vargo is credited with doing is what a producer does too: directing how the music would be arranged, what would go into the recording itself, what would not, what instruments would be incorporated, the overall theme and concept, the titles, even the marketing. Then as executive producer he paid for it.

I think you just have to admit that your dislike for Vargo stems from his desire to start a new band, and whatever came about later is really because of what Douglas did in an attempt to discredit Vargo. I sure don't see the Legion site being posted for no good reason. I mean, Douglas had to have done something really major for Vargo to feel like he had to "set the record straight." After all these years, why now? The Legion site went up right after the Haunted Attraction article. That timing leads me to believe that the HA article is mostly incorrect, not to mention that the Legion site offers a ton of proof that can be researched, while the HA article only tells us stuff that cannot be verified. You've heard the old saying "Don't believe everything you read..." Yeah, well I don't believe all of the HA article or even some of the others. But when there's a big heap of proof such as that on the Legionofthenight.com website, stuff that I can go and look up for myself too, I believe it. GuardianZ 05:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)