Talk:Michael Moorcock/Archive 1

Archive 1

New Worlds reference

"A spoof obituary of Colvin later appeared in New Worlds." Can anyone provide a reference to the issue number and date? Anjouli 05:36, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC) Poo-poo!

The 'obituary' appeared in New Worlds #197 (January 1970) entitled 'The Man who Nobody Knew' and credited to 'William Barclay' (another of Moorcock's pseudonyms). Demos99 18:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to add to my previous comment, Moorcock has confirmed that the Colvin obituary was actually written by NW's art editor Charles Pratt (using the Barclay pseudonym) and that he didn't know anything about Colvin being 'killed off' until the magazine appeared. Demos99 00:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Collaborators

Howard Chaykin did an authorized Eternal Warrior graphic novel in the 1980s.

Walter Simonson has collaborated with Michael in the past and the pair have an Elric book due soon. - Sparky 22:11, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is that the "Making of A Sorcerer" series? As far as I can remember, the first two parts have been published, and the third (of four in total) is due out soon.D J L 16:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The 3rd & 4th issues of Elric: MOAS were finally published in Summer 2006. Demos99 00:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I would like to change the small reference to Alan Moore's use of Moorcock's characters in LoEG. It says "several" characters are used. Yet I only know of one officially, namely Michael Kane. Gloriana is a possiblility but the original Gloriana was written well before Moorcock's version. FourtySixNtwo 04:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Young versions of Jerry, Katherine and Frank Cornelius and their (in)famous mother, Mrs Cornelius all appear in LoEG:The Black Dossier, as does Josef Kiss from Mother London. I believe the adult Jerry will appear in the 1969 chapter of LoEG:Century as well though that's not due out until 2010. Michael Kane is named only (doesn't appear) in LoEG Vol.2, I think Queen Gloriana is referenced in one of the text pieces that appeared in the back of the monthly issues. Demos99 (talk) 12:38, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Moorcock also had a long running collaboration with James Cawthorn producing graphical versions of "jewel in the Skull" and the "Mad God's Amulet". Cawthorn produced some of the original illustrations for Jerry Cornelius stories in new Worlds. Dfmac2001 (talk) 16:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Elric and Túrin Turambar

"Ironically enough one of his characters Elric of Melnibone also shares certain characteristics with Tolkien's Turin Turamabar."

I'm going to have to remove this line from the article. It's irrelevant and in no way undermines any of Moorcock's arguments against Tolkien, especially since Túrin Turambar and his cursed sword don't appear in any significant form until The Silmarillion (1977), years after Elric had been created (Stormbringer was published in 1962). I don't believe it was a rip off, however. The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson features a remarkably similar story, and predates Elric (and, naturally, The Silmarillion) by several years. MM himself admitted The Broken Sword was an inspiration for Elric, along with Monsieur Zenith and the tortured characters of gothic literature. On the other hand, Tolkien based his story on Kalevala's Kullervo, and it's possible that Poul Anderson did too, since both authors were Celtic/Norse/Finnish mythology buffs. --Goblin 07:42, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

Epic Pooh misquote

"Epic Pooh" was specifically MM's dismissal of Richard Adams's Shardik (ursine messiah) and not Tolkien. Reread "Wizardry and Wild Romance"...

There is a link to the chapter on Epic Pooh in the article. Here is a relevant quote: "The Lord of the Rings is much more deep-rooted in its infantilism than a good many of the more obviously juvenile books it influenced. It is Winnie-the-Pooh posing as an epic." (it's pretty clear-cut) BernardL Aug 4,2005

Bibliography

It would be helpful if these were dated...' --K D F

I've added dates to the books listed and updated the Bibliography to include Moorcock's more recent EC sequences: Second Ether and Oona Von Bek. Demos99 23:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Shapeshifting in Moorcock's fiction?

There is a vague reference to Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius stories in List of shapeshifters. Can someone who's familiar with them make it more specific, or remove it? --Jim Henry 14:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't claim to be that familiar with the Jerry Cornelius novels, but there's a couple of explanations why he might be on that list. In the first JC novel, The Final Programme, at the end Jerry and Miss Brunner 'merge' to form an hermaphrodite being called 'Cornelius Brunner'. In that story, Jerry is white but in the next novel, A Cure For Cancer, not only is he back to being masculine but he's also black; whereas in the short story 'The Peking Junction' he's described as being "Six foot two inches tall, rather fat, dressed in the beard and uniform of a Cuban guerrilla...". Quite how this 'shapeshifting' occurs, or even if it's shapeshifting in the commonly understood sense I couldn't say, but Moorcock has said that Cornelius is 'more of a technique than a character', so as such he perhaps doesn't conform to the normal conventions of a fictional character anyway. Demos99 22:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Jerry Cornelius updates

I've made some changes to the paragraph dealing with Jerry Cornelius. Initially I just want to change the line "One of Moorcock's popular characters was Jerry Cornelius" to "One of Moorcock's popular characters is Jerry Cornelius", since Jerry is very much a current character for Moorcock. From that I decided to more fully detail the novellas that Moorcock has written since 1998, as well as mentioning the most recent Cornelius story, which appeared in May 2006. I also mentioned that The Condition of Muzak won the Guardian Fiction Award, but I see that that duplicates information about awards Moorcock has won further down the article. I'll rectify that - one way or another - in a short while. Demos99 15:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've restructed the paragraph detailing the various awards Moorcock's won over the years, basically presenting them in list format, also adding in a couple of new ones (ie Bram Stoker Lifetime Achievement). I've left the reference to Muzak winning the Guardian award in the Cornelius paragrah. Demos99 18:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What?

Why does it read NOTHING about him passing away, even though that date is TODAY? --nlitement ^[talk] 19:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen a reputable source for it, just an anonymous edit to Wikipedia, which may simply be vandalism.Shsilver 19:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Definitely untrue. Moorcock is back answering readers' questions at Moorcock's Miscellany as of 14th September 2006. Demos99 21:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Musical influences

 I noticed that in Music interest section the epic metal band Domine is not mentioned, their lyrical theme borrow heavily from MM's works.

I'd actually argue that the three bands mentioned - Summoning, Blind Guardian & Domine - shouldn't be in that section at all, since Moorcock has only influenced them rather than being actively involved in their music as he is/was with Hawkwind and Blue Oyster Cult. Demos99 21:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted the following section from the article:

===Bands influenced or inspired by Moorcock's fiction===

The [[epic metal|Epic]] [[black metal|Black metal]] band [[Summoning (band)|Summoning]] has also written about Moorcock on their album "Let Mortal Heroes Sing Your Fame."

The [[Germany|German]] [[power metal|Power Metal]] band [[Blind Guardian]] wrote of the Eternal Champion in the song "The Quest for Tanelorn" on their album [[Somewhere Far Beyond]], about Elric in their song "Fast To Madness". Also, a reference is made to Moorcock's character Corum in their song "[[Imaginations from the Other Side]]" on the album of the same name.

Italian [[epic metal]] band [[Domine]] bases a lot of their lyrical themes on Moorcock's tales of the Eternal Champion, 
and on Elric more specifically.

Also the Italian [[epic metal]] band [[Assedium]] wrote a song, ''Messenger of Chaos'', based on the figure of Elric.

The American [[dream pop]] band [[Elysian Fury]] released a song, "The Nomad of Time", named after a novel by Moorcock.

The Norwegian [[death metal]] band [[Blood Arkin]] got the name from the the Moorcock character "Lord Arkin". They also wrote the song, "Blood Arkin" about the character.

The American [[heavy metal]] band [[Cirith Ungol (band)|Cirith Ungol]] make use of artwork depicting Moorcock's character Elric on all four of their full-length albums.

The American [[Paisley Underground]] musician [[Kendra Smith]], has recorded a number of songs inspired by Moorcock's work, such as 'The Wheel Of The Law' and 'Valley of The Morning Sun'. One release is credited to Kendra Smith and The Guild of Temporal Adventurers.

As I said last year, I don't think this is at all relevant to an article about Moorcock since he isn't directly involved in the music the groups produce - unlike, say, Hawkwind, where Moorcock had an active participation. Demos99 13:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Glorianna

The article says that Glorianna "is not strictly a fantasy novel", even though it won the World Fantasy Award, is a very clear tribute to Gormenghast, and is set in an alternate universe which is influenced by / has contacts with ours as well. What about it is not strictly fantasy? 12:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It is political commentary. Think Jubilee or Britannia Hospital Greglocock 11:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but you can be "strictly fantasy" and allegory, political commentary, satire, or whatever at the same time. LotR was, inadvertently or not, an exonomical and sociological commentary as well. You can hardly be good art without being a commentary on your surroundings, other people and situations, ... Fram 20:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Pomo?

"Thus the criticism of metanarratives common in post-modern critical theory finds its expression in a form widely read and understood at a variety of levels."

I think I'm going to axe this line. I like postmodernism as much as the next guy, but I don't see how Law vs. Chaos is critical of metanarratives. I would think that Law v. Chaos is a metanarrative. Anyway, unless someone has Michael Moorcock quoting Lyotard or whatever, this is original research. Jordansc 00:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Photo?

Does anyone have a good photo that could be used to enhance the article? Desdinova 15:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I took some pictures at his recent book signing (23 February 2008). Feel free to edit/crop/use them for the purpose of this article, if they help. http://picasaweb.google.com/jacob.silvia/MichaelMoorcock LlamaScout (talk) 21:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

the Nature journal?

"Moorcock's most recent Cornelius story appeared in the journal Nature in May 2006 and was called 'The Visible Men'." The Nature link goes to the world-renowned scientific revue... which I can't imagine publishing short stories. Citation definitely needed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.121.47.39 (talk) 07:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I added a reference for this, and it took all of a minute to find it. This is a wiki, which means, in future, you can look things up yourself and add them to the article.

Please note that the link goes to a bibliographic page, not the full article. Only subscribers can see the full article. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Michael Moorcock and Yoshitaka Amano

http://www.nippon2007.us/GOH/Moorcock_tribute_to_amano.php

Michael Moorcock praises Amano's ability, says his Elric is his favorite representation, and even says his artwork has influenced his writing.

I feel this should be mentioned in the article, but not sure how —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.145.172 (talk) 05:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Stormbringer Lancer 1967.jpg

Image:Stormbringer Lancer 1967.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

A Nomad of the Time Streams

Why so little about Moorcock's A Nomad of the Time Streams trilogy? This trilogy not only perfectly showcases his political writing in how he decronstructs imperialism and racism, but it would also be a good opportunity to source the statement that's currently scattered across its correspondent articles of it being an "important precursor to the steampunk genre", which people obviously demand sources for. If this trilogy is so significant in shaping the genre before there even was a name for it, I'd even argue that it deserves a more prominent section here in Moorcock's biography article instead of only going on about Elric, Elric, Elric, and the initials JC. I must admit I never read any other of Moorcock's works, but in spite of being an avid reader of Science Fiction and Fantasy Reader (full of winners of Phillip K. Dick award, Hugo award, Nebula award, and others) for more than a decade I've personally never come across anything from the genres of Sci-Fi, Fantasy, and Mystery with such a lasting impression and personal impact as the adventures of Cpt. Oswald Bastable, beside maybe H. G. Wells's Time machine, its sequel by Stephen Baxter, and John Sladek's Roderick. --87.154.1.53 (talk) 06:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Math Fail?

"At sixteen in 1957..." would put his birthdate at 1941, not 1939. Or he was the editor of Tarzan Adventures starting in 1955. I'm not sure which. The Mink Ermine Fox (talk) 22:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The same error was corrected on the french Wikipedia. Does any one have a source to be sure of which figure must be corrected ? Mirgolth (talk) 12:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

The first U.S. edition of Mother London has this author's bio: "Born in London in 1939, Michael Moorcock..." Keithlawless (talk) 00:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Unsigned

So is his name pronounced like "more cock" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.97.5.210 (talk) 22:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

According to Moorcock himself: "Moorcock, of course, is pronounced Muck." (source) Demos99 (talk) 12:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

PS I'm not entirely sure he's being serious. ;-) Demos99 (talk) 12:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Political Manifesto

Worth mentioning his "political manifesto" The Retreat From Liberty which came out in the early 80's (I think)? I remember little about it apart from its existence, like a fool I lent it to someone. WestwoodMatt (talk) 23:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The Retreat From Liberty is available as a PDF download from the Moorcock's Miscellany website. Demos99 (talk) 12:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Egan/Reagan

The example of the scoutmaster 'Egan' becoming 'Reagan' in the omnibus edition of The Warlord of the Air is cited in the article as an example of one of Moorcock's frequent revisions; this is incorrect. The scoutmaster was called 'Reagan' in the original 1971 US paperback edition published by Ace Books, but because "Roughrider Ronnie Reagan" was an alternate world version of then California Governor Ronald Reagan, the the UK publishers, New English Library, wanted the name changed (censored) to protect them from any possible libel, so the character became "Roughrider Robbie Egan". (Similar changes were made to the character of 'Michael Jagger' in the UK editions for similar reasons.) Moorcock acquiesced to the changes because he knew "the US edition was [out] there" and thought he "could soon bring out the regular edition in the UK" although it would be 1993 before the uncensored version was finally published in the UK. A better example of the sort of revision being referred to would be the protagonist of The Pleasure Garden of Felipe Sagittarius changing from Minos Aquilinas to Minos von Bek to Sam Begg in three different versions of the story over 40+ years. Demos99 (talk) 11:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Contention: Behond The Main criticizes Chritianity?

I have cut this line:

Also, some of Moorcock's work has criticized Christianity, most notably, "Behold the Man".

To be more than one uncredited internet writer's opinion, and to be worthy of entry in an encyclopedia, this line needs support. Quotation from a published review would be a start, as would a literary analysis. Moorcock may or may not have pointed fingers at specific or general practitioners or exponents of Christianity, but taken in the context of his canon, to simply say his work has 'criticized Christianity' belies a lack of sympathy, at best, and at worst, a lack of reading of the author's more famous works. Leegee23 (talk) 19:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Pronounciation

How do you pronounce his name? Is it indeed with "moor" as in "door" or is is with "moor" as in "pour"?

I was born down the road form him, and I pronounce it like "you're", as in "you're joking."Leegee23 (talk) 19:12, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Sexton Blake Library

To the best of my knowledge, he was Assistant Editor, not Editor, of SBL.

Rogersansom (talk) 08:48, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Watch Out For Herbert's Wingman, Mike!

King Solomon's Mines

69.254.165.61 (talk) 08:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC) Admiral Electric

1956/1957

We say that he (born 1939-12-18) became editor of Tarzan Adventures in 1956 at age 16 and in 1957 at age 17. --P64 (talk) 17:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Lists of works, Corum, Hawkmoon

This article and its companion Michael Moorcock bibliography need attention. The bibliography needs more bibliographic data, some ordering principle, and a clear explanation of scope in the preface. On the latter, why have a partial bibliography, meaning incomplete? Is it complete for books?

Here the Selected works should be more selective.

Corum. Despite the latter point, I added the Corum series comprising two trilogies (per ISFDB). Moorcock won three of the first four August Derleth Awards for these six books, and he has won annual book awards for only two other novels. Thus they are among his most important works of fiction that were originally published as books (in terms of the bibliography, "novels/novellas" not originally published in magazines or anthologies). I feel sure that it's some others listed here which should be relegated to the bibliography alone.

Hawkmoon. This article mentions 'Hawkmoon' once; the band 'Hawkwind' seven times in prose plus template {{Hawkwind}} and category Hawkwind in the footer. Is that due emphasis? Maybe so. The bibliography mentions the Hawkmoon sequence in one annotation linked to our fictional character article, but it does not identify any such works.

--P64 (talk) 21:39, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

He continues to write Elric ...

This may need update. Anyway it needs attention. Quoting section 3.1.0:

"he continues to write Elric's adventures as graphic novels with his long-time collaborators Walter Simonson and James Cawthorn (1929–2008).[a] Together, they produced the graphic novel, Elric: the Making of a Sorcerer, published by DC Comics in 2007."

This hour I provide the Cawthorn lifespan and Note. No other changes to what is quoted here.

Neither our Walter Simonson nor ISFDB supports long-time collaboration w Moorcock. ISFDB shows Simonson contribution to Elric only with the latterday Elric: Making of a Sorcerer and implies that Cawthorn was not involved [1]. ISFDB shows latterday contribution to Elric by Cawthorn only(?) in the 2010 volume --posthumous for Cawthorn-- Elric: Swords and Roses [2], and that contribution mainly reprints from 1966–1980.

--P64 (talk) 02:44, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Pen Name 'Philip James' - NOT Moorcock

'Philip James' is given as one of Moorcock's pen names in the article; I believe this is incorrect. 'Philip James' was a pen name for Moorcock's friend and collaborator James Cawthorn, who assisted with the completion of the novel The Distant Suns when Moorcock fell ill and was unable to complete the original serialisation for The Illustrated Times of India. As such, I think this (false) attribution should be removed from the Info Box. Demos99 (talk) 12:03, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done; continued below, #Pseudonyms. --P64 (talk) 23:29, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Influences/influenced

{{Infobox writer}} no longer supports the fields influences and influenced. Its template documentation now instructs (twice): "No longer supported. Please move cited/citable instances into prose."

Here are the current parameter values (cut and paste except reformat with bullet points and {{reflist}}):

• | influences = Poul Anderson, Leigh Brackett, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Lord Dunsany, Joseph Conrad, Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, William S. Burroughs, Mervyn Peake, T. H. White, J. G. Ballard, P. G. Wodehouse
• | influenced = Michael Chabon, Neil Gaiman, Colin Greenland, Alan Moore, David A. Hargrave, China Miéville, Hiroyuki Morioka, Mike Chinn, Jess Nevins, Carter Kaplan, Richard Morgan

--P64 (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for Update and Structural Edit of this article

I just came to the Moorcock entry this morning and found that the most recent element dated from October 2010, meaning that we have an article by an active and prolific major writer which is some 5 years out of date. I've begun an update process, inviting those of expertise at multiverse.org which maintains a (slightly) more up to date chronology of Moorcock's publishing history (although only to 2011, leaving out considerable activity since). This should mean that in due course the article will be interrogated by people well-informed to undertake update. However, I also note that the article as a whole is rather unwieldly and does not conform to Wikipedia's standard 'narrative' formats for Biographies, among other serious problems, including, as noted already, entire blocks of text unsupported by citation. I'd therefore like to propose major revision by all those to whom this is transparent. Some of the work required does not require expertise in Moorcock's career but rather expertise in Wikipedia formatting.Michaelk xsx (talk) 13:38, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Rocket scientists at Wikipedia

I shake my head when I read contemptuous messages like: "This section of a biography of a living person does not include any references or sources. Please help by adding reliable sources. Contentious material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately."

Everyone but the moderators knows that the source of the information concerned comes from the books themselves. They use details of what are in the stories. Don't embarrass yourself by putting up such messages in future.(84.236.152.71 (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2015 (UTC))

Personal life

This article could use more information about his personal life and relationships (if any). FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 03:22, 29 February 2016 (UTC)