Talk:Mercat cross

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Listcruft[edit]

I can't help thinking "listcruft" when I see the list here, it's probably permanently incomplete, a lot of it fails WP:V and the mercat cross is so ubiquitous to Scottish towns that I'm not sure we should define places by it. If it was a separate list I'd be very interested to see if it passed AfD, and ditto for CfD if it was a category. If an town's article mentions the mercat cross then great, link to it, or if it's famous and verified by external links then great but otherwise a lot of this could be deemed OR and, imo, adds nothing to the article with just a list of place names. Deizio 21:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What are AfD and CfD? Please clarify listcruft. Rosser 11:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AfD - Articles for deletion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion); CfD - Categories for discussion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion); listcruft - indiscriminate or trivial lists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Listcruft). Personally I think the Mercat Crosses should be listed, but reference should maybe be made to RCAHMS that holds historical information of not only the crosses listed, but also those that previously existed/were replaced! I also believe this article should be expanded with some of the (verifiable) information in this discussion)! Brewphilip 13:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Medieval Burghs – the Market Cross

When early medieval burghs were planned, a high ridge of ground was plotted out at the site of a future burgh with enough breadth for a market place. The high ground aided in runoff of water and animal droppings. In old Scots, this high street is Hie Gate or Hie Gait.

Three constructions were common to all burghs: the mercat cross, tron (a beam balance scale from which standardizations for Scotland's weights and measures evolved), and a tolbooth (a stronghold for valuables common to the community, such as the charter from the monarch).

Most burghs were established from the reign of King David I (1124-53) onward. A burgh has written royal permission to trade (the days on which trade could take place are specified in the charter), to have city walls and gates, a mercat cross and a tolbooth. A town is not a Royal Burgh until granted one by the king. It seldom happened, but this privilege could be revoked and then any trade was done illegally until the charter was regained.

A market cross (mercat croce) is a column with some finial at its top and it is erected upon a stepped base. Only some of them resemble Latin crosses. Proclamations were made from the market cross, annual horseback ridings to survey town boundaries began and ended there, the new year was heralded there, and crimes were punished there. Sometimes jougs chain was attached a few feet above the base to hold a miscreant.

A market cross is not commemorative. It symbolizes authority.

As a town grew, the market cross was generally upgraded to something showy and reflective of the taste of the times.

Finials of early crosses were often plain stone balls, symbols of the sun, like the brass balls atop flag poles today. These gave way to sundials—a newer technology. Many crosses bearing sundial blades can still be seen. Often, a heraldic animal is the terminal, sometimes holding a shield or plaque bearing the town heraldry.

In more recent centuries, elaborate understructures were added. These drum-like little rooms contain a stairway for reaching the flat roof from which proclamations were made. Some towns later included a water well spout; very rich places provided wine from this spout on a day of great national celebration (a royal marriage or birth of a royal heir).

Very large burghs might have more than one market place and more than one market cross—there might be a separate market for fish, for example.

Around 1900, a young architect named Small traveled through Scotland and sketched most of the market crosses—112 of them—and wrote descriptions of what he saw. Only 500 copies of the book of his illustrations and notes were printed.

There are similar columns throughout Europe, but they’re not the same as those in Scotland, i.e. Roland’s columns (Rolandsäulen) in Germany and Jupiter columns in Italy.

People still get together for celebrations at the market cross, such as revelers welcoming in the New Year. And land surveys relay on the placement of this marker for unchanging orientation.

Violet 16:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Violet wrote: "Around 1900, a young architect named Small traveled through Scotland and sketched most of the market crosses—112 of them—and wrote descriptions of what he saw. Only 500 copies of the book of his illustrations and notes were printed."

Most of the information (including some of the sketches) from Small's book Scottish Market Crosses can be found on the RCAHMS Canmore database (http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/search.html#canmore) and that database also lists the locations of about 176 crosses. ScotSites also contains a list of 109 of the 112 crosses Small visited including details of some of these (http://www.scotsites.co.uk/historicbuildings/mercatcrosslistc1900.htm). Apparently Small also redesigned the cross at Culross in 1902! Brewphilip 11:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge article with Market Cross[edit]

It seems this article covers the same subject matter as the article on Market Cross. The information here would be useful there, and the images could be added to the gallery there. This page could then be changed into a Redirct to Market Cross. MishaPan 22:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Oppose another anglocentric move. --MacRusgail 16:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Oppose another anglocentric move. Rosser 21:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"'Support'" another anglocentric move. Scarymonstersandsupercreeps (talk) 07:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Market Cross + Mercat Cross + Mercat Croce[edit]

References between Market Cross + Mercat Cross + Mercat Croce = a sensible suggestion. Good idea! How many other cross-references should be considered, i.e.: Tron, Tolbooth, Royal Burgh, Medieval Scotland...? Violet 16:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why not just keep it as it is? The photographs alone illustrate the cultural differences. Would you consider combining the crosses of France and Germany? Rosser 11:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rosser, I thank you for your comment. Your interest rekindles mine on this topic and I see that I have not expressed at least one thought that seems essential: these columns were erected before clocks were placed on some prominent structure as the standard for time in the town. A column such as a market cross, placed on an open paved area, would serve as an overly large sundial needle. I believe this thought is supported by the later addition of sundial blades near the tops of them. I mentioned the blades in my text above, but not the earlier benefit of the 'needle's shadow creeping across the market square during the course of each (sunny) day.

Just as a note, during the Victorian era, large mechanical clocks were added to the exterior face of several remaining tolbooths, which would mean that they are close to the market cross. The center of town, where business is conducted and where people are inclined to meet by appointment, is an obvious place for a large timepiece.

I would like to agree with you that photographs alone illustrate cultural differences, but I feel that the two photos which accompany the Mercat Cross original posting do not adequately represent even those in Scotland. As you may have read above, crosses in Scotland sometimes evolved from that simple shaft with ball finial type to a column with a large and elaborate superstructure.

I will await an explanation of AfD/CfD with you. I will answer your question about accepting crosses of France and Germany as being one style (with a similar history) when I have had the chance to find out more about them. If I cannot find photos, do you have any? Violet 14:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See above for explanation of AfD/CfD! Brewphilip 13:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Cockburnmercat.jpg[edit]

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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