Talk:Martha Gellhorn

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Blacklisted[edit]

I understand that this article has had its issues, but why is it blacklisted? Pookiyama (talk) 15:50, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled[edit]

Martha Gellhorn first met Ernest Hemingway in Key West according to her conversations with John Simpson reported in his book A Mad World, My Masters.

Cause of death[edit]

As far as I know there are no wikirules against stating cause or manner of death. I have reverted to earlier copy: "At the age of 89, ill and nearly completely blind, she ended her life by taking a poison pill." Bardwell 16:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cause of death and marital indiscretions[edit]

Gellhorn herself asserted that Hemingway slept with only five women in his entire life, counting his four marriages. These remarks can be found in the book on Hemingway and Gellhorn's trip to China in 1940, "Hemingway on the China Front."

Also, "poison pill" is misleading. Supposedly she took an overdose of sleeping pills. HolySh!tIAmOnFire (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Utan Vax's "clean-up"[edit]

I lodged a mild protest today about what I consider less than useful edits on Utan Vax's discussion page, particularly his/her call for a citation in immediate juxtaposition with a properly sourced quotation. He/she is not willing to budge, and I don't go in for edit wars. Any other watchers of this page intereste--El Ingles (talk) 19:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)d?[reply]

Erm, if you are referring to this edit [1], Utan made a good call there. Removing a deleted image and removing idle speculation as to someone's love life is a good thing. A random authoring saying "he could've slept with her" is not a well sourced or encyclopedic fact. MBisanz ^talk 22:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am referring to that edit. The facts of Gellhorn's sex life are far from idle, and are an important part of her personality, as Moorehead correctly realised. The fact that she remained friendly with de Jouvenal is also of legitimate interest to the reader of an encyclopedia. "Sexual desires" is not an improvement on "sexual conquests" in the context. Actually it's a bit weasely. But my main complaint is that Utan Vax calls for a citation when one is given in immediate juxtaposition with his fact tag. Cheers. --El Ingles (talk) 14:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, it's better than it was. "Her spectacular sexual conquests" pales in comparison to my version. Of course, there's always a "better" alternative, but, anyway, please read WP:NPOV. We can't write WP:OR or WP:SPECULATION. Utan Vax (talk) 15:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, to reflect the main problem with the sentence (that, for some reason, you reinserted here amongst other things despite its many faults), I have changed it to an {{or}} tag. Utan Vax (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note the following chronology difficulty "The pair celebrated Christmas of 1937 together in Barcelona. Later, from Germany, she reported on the rise of Adolf Hitler" How so, he became chancellor in 1933 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.210.69.34 (talk) 19:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Changing "Marriages and Love Affairs" heading to "Personal Life" and removing Hyperbole, etc[edit]

The respectful and consistent heading regarding someone's intimate relationships based on wikipedia style standards is "Personal Life." Looking at other wikipedia pages of the most notable men for infidelity and sexual liaisons (such as John Kennedy, Pablo Picasso, Wilt Chamberlain, Warren Beatty, etc. etc.) not one of them has a section singled out for "love affairs." I think the heading of "love affairs" betrays a bit of a sexist style bias in how we frame the sexually free women of history vs. the sexually free men of history. Also, I've removed the phrase "countless lovers" which is unverifiable hyperbole and also that her lovers "tended to be married men." Even though that may be true, again it is an inconsistent bias as the great male "Lotharios" of history undoubtedly bedded many married women, yet that edit is not seen fit to be included in their pages. I have also removed the phrases "briefly devoted mother" and "not maternal" for two reasons. First, there is no citation to support this. Second, again, although many men of history left their children in the care of others while pursuing their careers, wikipedia does not describe any of them as "not paternal." This is a double standard with respect to how we judge men's vs. women's parenting. Even Frank Lloyd Wright, who notoriously abandoned his wife and six children to live in scandal with his mistress is not described in his article as "not paternal," for example. It is a sexist, biased observation to say that Gellhorn was not devoted or not maternal because others cared for her child while she pursued her career. Amyluna13 (talk) 07:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

characterizing the removal of sex bias from an article as "bowdlerisations"[edit]

StuHarris characterized my revisions based on this article's inconsistent style regarding women's vs. men's sex and parenting lives as bowdlerisations. My understanding of the term is that to bowdlerize means to remove something because it offends personal taste. I removed the passages not because they offended my subjective personal taste (which they did) but because they represented an objective bias with respect to the gender of article's subject, which compromises the standards of wikipedia. Just because something is subjectively distasteful does not mean that it is mutually exclusive from being objectively inappropriate, as this material was. In fact, to attack the motives of the person making an argument, instead of evaluating the merits of the argument is the "ad hominem" fallacy of argumentation. The characterization in this case resembles the common tactic of characterizing a logical argument as being "emotionally" or "personally" driven because it came from a woman. :) Amyluna13 (talk) 00:52, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The file Martha Gellhorn stamp.jpg on Wikimedia Commons has been nominated for deletion. View and participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 18:06, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography[edit]

I have commenced a tidy-up of the Bibliography section using cite templates. Capitalization and punctuation follow standard cataloguing rules in AACR2 and RDA, as much as Wikipedia templates allow it. ISBNs and other persistent identifiers, where available, are commented out, but still available for reference. This is a work in progress; feel free to continue. Sunwin1960 (talk) 01:07, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sandy and Sandy?[edit]

"In 1949, Gellhorn adopted a boy, Sandro, from an Italian orphanage. He was formally renamed George Alexander Gellhorn, and widely called Sandy." "her stepson, Sandy Matthews"

Were there then two Sandys, an adopted son and a stepson? That might explain these, which otherwise seem contradictory:

"She left Sandy [the adoptee] in the care of relatives... for long periods as she travelled, and he eventually attended boarding school. Their relationship was said to have become embittered." "Her supporters include her stepson, Sandy Matthews, who describes Gellhorn as 'very conscientious' in her role as stepmother." Dgndenver (talk) 10:08, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I should have looked around more before I posted. "Sandy Matthews (Martha's stepson and literary executor) and Sandy Gellhorn (her adopted son) gave Moorehead access to Martha's papers and letters."

https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA139521248&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=02763362&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon~859e810 Dgndenver (talk) 10:12, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Record[edit]

It is a fact that Gellhorn ran over and killed a small boy in Mombasa, when he ran in front of her car.During her marriage to Hemingway, she aborted a pregnancy which she never told him about. It is also true that she was raped, in Kenya, at the age of 79, and never physically recovered. These were essential realities of her life. She herself wrote and talked about them. They were important to her. They should appear in the article, and it's peculiar that they didn't. Younggoldchip (talk) 19:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]