Talk:Major Arcana/Archive 1

Revert query

How can the damage done by User:24.153.197.191 be restored? User:Wetman

Go to "Page History" and click on the date for the revision you want to revert the article to. When this version loads (the top of the page will say that it is not the current revision), click to edit it, then save the page with the comment "rvrt" or something appropriate (if it's a more complicated problem than simple vandalism like this, a brief reason or "see talk" is good). Tuf-Kat 05:04, Oct 16, 2003 (UTC)

Mnemonic

Anyone else notice that XIV: Temperance is missing from the mnemonic card list at the end of the article? I'm not sure how to add it as I don't know the source of the rhyme.

List of Cards

The list of Major Arcana cards was removed months ago, and replaced with images which were later removed due to Fair Use concerns. As it stands, there are only ten cards listed, ignoring the (unsourced) mnemonic which only shows up on one non-Wikipedia based website.

I'm (possibly contentiously) replacing the pictures with mere text, with the logic that it's better to actually link to The Tower (Tarot card) than just have images of half the cards. If someone is able to finish adding fair-use images, obviously it should be switched back.

>>> I added new cards. By the way, I´ve been informed that wikipedia no more recognizes the Rider Waite Tarot copyright of US Games Company.Don Leon 12:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

noncompliant tags on card articles

In January, User:Parsa and User:Smiloid tagged each of the Major Arcana articles as noncompliant, and added the following explanation to each talk page.

The article is just personal opinions from an occult enthusiast about the nature and meaning of a particular tarot card. No peer reviewed books or journal articles are cited. No references or footnotes are given. When a new statement is added, the source needs to be cited, and the source needs to be verifiable, and reliable. Waite is not an unbiased, factual source on the history or evolution of tarot cards. The work can be cited properly, however: "Waite's opinion in his book The Pictorial Key to the Tarot ... etc" The other sources are definitely of questionable academic weight.

The card in question has a history of over 500 years in European card games in which it is used as trump card (see Tarocchi). The article is unbalanced in that it only features the recent uses of the card for divination. This makes the article biased due to its recentism. Since the article ignores use of the card for game play in Europe and other parts of the world, it offers an anglo-american perspective that raises NPOV issues. There are academic sources and sources from international organizations discussing the history and evolution of the "World" card as well as its use in games. Such sources need to be utilized. - Parsa 08:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have removed these non-compliant tags and replaced them with copy-edit requests, which I feel are more appropriate. Additionally, I hope to centralise any further discussion here instead of having it spread across the 22 relevant articles.

The main concern with the articles is with there "recentism", which is valid. There will, however, always be more information regarding the various possible interpretation of the card in divination; any special attribute of the card in various games should be mentioned briefly and discussed in detail in an article about that game. --jwanders^Talk 22:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• I disagree with this removal. Every statement I made still holds true. The card articles are simply lists of every possible occult interpretation that anyone cares to place on them. There is no order to the articles. There are no reliable and verifiable sources cited. No scholarly works on tarot history such as those by Michael Dummett are used. Even historical occult interpretations must be cited. Both Dummett and Ronald Decker cover occult meanings in their books. Almost the entire article is original research in nearly every instance, and thus goes against all the principles Wikipedia tries to uphold. - Parsa 20:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, now all the tags have been removed and the various articles are still a mish-mash of hearsay and unverifiable sources. I might as well join in and add my own unverifiable and unsourced interpretations of each and every card. Lets, see... the Moon means that a small meteorite will crash through your roof tonight and destroy your computer. Who's to say my interpretation is any more incorrect than the ones on the article pages? --Parsa 06:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

House of the Dead references...

We're not going to need this, are we? There're too many for it to be coincidence, but then again it has absolutely nothing to do with the actual cards. 211.30.212.36

Presentation of Cards and NPOV

that particular list of tarot major arcana includes distortions by bohemians, Romans, Christians, The Golden Dawn, and New Age.Prometheuspan 01:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

This represents an assertion bereft of knowledge of the facts regarding the modern development of Occult Tarot (1890s-today). We should be referencing sources like Decker and Dummett's "History of Occult Tarot: 1870-1970", Duckworth Press, 2002. "Distortions" is a loaded word. It would be better to speak of the crafting of an occult tool out of a gaming deck.-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 17:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is the most common version of the Arcana, no, it isn't the most accurate, not by a long shot.Prometheuspan 01:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Again, these are loaded terms of evaluation. We should be selecting the most popular and well-known OCCULT deck or decks (these being the Smith-Waite or 'Rider-Waite' cards or the Harris-Crowley 'Thoth' deck or possibly a Golden Dawn or BOTA deck; probably sustainable references will be from the Kaplan variety published by his US Games and detailed in his encyclopedias at least). The rest of the decks are less important to the general occultist and moreso with readers. These classes should be distinguished on other pages, and the most popular sustainable card sequence identified so as to produce the list on this page, or some quasi-alternative as may be found in such text as Kaplan.-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 17:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

How can we ameliorate this by including other points of view, and perhaps, a version history?Prometheuspan 01:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The ideal is admirable, but we should not strictly attempt to include all points of view, only those of relevance and notability. Where the phrase 'Major Arcana' applies is not to the card game from which the cards arrive (in which they are called 'Trumps'), but in OCCULT Tarot, which has a developmental history since the late 1800s. We should discuss this history and acknowledge it in the exposition of the cards, as well as select the major decks of relevance to that history (notably one of a number such as the Majors by Wirth (artist), Smith (artist), or Harris (artist).-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 17:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

What these articles need

Here's a good example of an edit I did for the Antoine Court de Gébelin article "An essay by The Comte de Mellet included in Court de Gebelin's Monde primitif is responsible for the mystical connection of the Tarot's Major Arcana with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet." What this does is establish how tarot cards became associated with Kabbalah. I think something similar should be done regarding alchemy and astrology and other associations. How did these associations came about? It may be a tradition but who started the tradition? Also, how did the terms "Major Arcana" and "Minor Arcana" originate. These are facts we should include in our articles.Smiloid 08:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a good start, but the article will need secondary or tertiary sourcing to substantiate the encyclopedic character of Wikipedia, lest it become effaced by cite challenges. Building them in to the analysis of the development of Major Arcana imagery would be important to the sustainability of any articles on them. Not many have done this kind of analysis, however, so you're either stuck with what has been done (diversified survey of card meanings on the order of Butler or O'Neill or others) or need to find some fairly novel source who adequately details the imagery symbolism as it develops through time and becomes associated with occult ideas. Original research won't last in Wikipedia, though it may be beautiful to behold.-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 17:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, i would respectfully suggest that Joseph Campbell has little authority in the area of either Tarot or of occult symbolism, though he did author one essay on Tarot Major Arcana graphic symbolism and its relation to myth. His extreme and syncretic perspective once had favour but should be placed on a plateau with numerous other symbolism expositions where they are discernable. There are few sources with standing in this region of knowledge, but a few that come to mind include Dummett, Butler, O'Neill, and even Kaplan. If we focus on form rather than meaning that will be initially helpful in arriving at consensus, especially if we are able to restrict to specific and most popular decks for selection (it will minimize the naming and sequence variation).-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 17:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Robert M. Place

Paul Christian is the originator of the phrase "Major Arcana" Place is at least one author I've read to mention this fact. I'm new to some of the Wikipedia syntax on footnotes etc. I am attempting to use his book as a source for that information.Smiloid (talk) 07:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

These Articles Are Awful

They tend toward nonsense and are totally unencyclopedic. As interested as I am in Tarot, Wikipedia is not the place for New Age babble. A trump is not "a reminder to be true to ourselves," etc. etc. Please communicate only the essential, preferably historical fact. It is acceptable to say, "Arthur Edward Waite identified the card with ---(Key to the Tarot, 19--), while others state, etc.' It is entirely unacceptable to say 'The card means you will have a baby, etc.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.106.137 (talk) 07:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The article on The Fool is a serviceable template that interested editors may follow. 173.21.106.137 (talk) 07:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)