Talk:MCMXC a.D./GA1
GA Review[edit]
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Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 09:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
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Starting this review today; hopefully I will have it wrapped up by the end of the day! --K. Peake 09:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Infobox and lead[edit]
- Is the Nowrap template really needed in the infobox?
- "by the German musical project" → "by German musical project"
- "which is headed by the Romanian-German musician" → "led by Romanian-German musician"
- "The album was released in" → "It was released in"
- "Michael Cretu became fascinated with mixing archaic sounds with" → "Cretu became fascinated with mixing archaic sounds and"
- Not done – Since there are both Michael and Sandra, I tended to (as GOCE copy editor) distinguish by including first names. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:34, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- She is not properly introduced as his wife though; change "Following Michael and Sandra's marriage" to "Following Michael and Sandra Cretu's marriage" and check through other instances to fix MOS:SAMESURNAME issues. --K. Peake 22:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not done – Since there are both Michael and Sandra, I tended to (as GOCE copy editor) distinguish by including first names. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:34, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- "in which he experimented" → "for which he experimented"
- "Michael developed the idea" → "the former developed the idea"
- "recorded the album in eight months" → "recorded the album over the course of eight months in 1990"
- Target dance to Dance music
- Remove wikilink on Gregorian Chant
- "resulted in the Munich-based choir suing" → "resulted in the choir's label Polydor Germany suing" with the target, as it was the label that launched the lawsuit
- "of personality"." → "of personality.""
- "after Michael Cretu agreed to pay compensation." → "after Cretu agreed to pay compensation to Capella Antiqua München."
- Next sentence of this paragraph should be about the reception: "The album received generally positive reviews from music critics," adding what was praised
- "The album became a worldwide success," → "Commercially, MCMXC a.D. became a worldwide success," to avoid starting all three paras of the lead with "MCMXC a.D." or "the album"
- "reaching the top ten on record charts in ten countries," → "reaching the top 10 of record charts in 10 countries," per MOS:NUM
- "number six in the United States, where it stayed on the" → "number six in the US, lasting on the country's"
- Next sentence should mention that "It was certified quadruple platinum in the US by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA)."
- Target single to Single (music)
- ""Sadeness (Part I)" topped the singles charts worldwide" → "The lead single topped charts worldwide" with the wikilink and removing "singles" to avoid repetitive wording and removing "the" to make it clear the song didn't top EVERY chart
- "Enigma's most successful single." → "Enigma's most successful song." but where is this sourced in the body?
@Dhtwiki: Thanks for dealing with the infobox and the lead section of the article. I will let you do the Development and release section, the Critical reception section, the Commercial success section, and the notes; and I will do the rest of the article. Lazman321 (talk) 04:16, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Lazman321: OK with me. The "Background and release" section (ex "Development and release") has three citation-needed/failed verification templates that possibly need addressing by someone with better access to sources than I have. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC) (edited by Dhtwiki (talk) 05:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC))
Development and release[edit]
- Retitle to Background and release
- Wikilink Michael Cretu because this is his first mention in the body and he is only the head of the musical project, so can be linked here as well as the lead
- "Michael experimented with" → "Cretu experimented with"
- It is not sourced that the chants appeared at the beginning of the song
- "Michael would become fascinated" → "He would become fascinated"
- "Michael married Sandra in" → "Cretu married Sandra in"
- "Michael's studio located" → "Cretu's studio located"
- "Michael conceived the album" → "He conceived the album"
- "He produced the album with" → "Cretu produced MCMXC a.D. with"
- It is not sourced that he produced the album with creative input from them; that is only backed up for one song
- "Michael Cretu told Sandra, that" → "Cretu told Sandra,"
- Target single to Single (music)
- "Michael wanted to be anonymous and for" → "Cretu wanted to be anonymous and wished for"
- "believing that consumers..." this is not fully backed up
- "So, he was" → "Due to this, he was"
- "with Frank Peterson credited" → "while Peterson was credited"
- "and Fabrice Cuitad being credited" → "and Fabrice Cuitad was credited"
- "Virgin promoted the song by" → "Virgin Records promoted the song with" with the wikilink
- [8][6][9] should be put in numerical order
- Remove wikilink on Virgin Records
- "Michael Cretu still wanted to remain" → "Cretu still wanted to remain"
- "again believing that the consumers would buy" → "believing that the consumers would buy" because the previous instance is in reference to a song
- "on the album the same as on "Sadeness (Part I)": Michael Cretu as Curly M.C., Frenk Peterson" → "on MCMXC a.D. under the same monikers as on "Sadeness (Part I)", with Cretu receiving credit as Curly M.C., Peterson"
Composition[edit]
- Retitle to Composition and lyrics
Overview[edit]
- Title of the audio sample should be surrounded by speech marks, plus wikilink lead single and Gregorian chant
- "that delved into themes of sexual violence and domination." → "delving into themes of sexual violence and domination."
- "The original release of MCMXC a.D. is 40 minutes" → "MCMXC a.D. is 40 minutes" since there is no different length mentioned for any other release
- ""The Principles of Lust" track contains" → "The track "Principles of Lust" contains" with the wikilink
- Is it "Sadeness" or "Sadeness (Part I)" that the song should be identified as?
- Comment: The album refers to the song as "Sadeness", but the single refers to the song as "Sadeness (Part I)". Most of the sources refer to the song as "Sadeness (Part I)" and as such, I refer to the song as "Sadeness (Part I)" when talking about the single or the song outside of the "Principles of Lust" track, but refer to it as "Sadeness" when I am talking about the song inside the "Principles of Lust" track, even though they are the same song. I will make it more clear in the singles sub-section that "Sadeness (Part I)" and "Sadeness" are the same song. Lazman321 (talk) 15:28, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah that all makes sense, and thank you for the last bit. --K. Peake 22:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: The album refers to the song as "Sadeness", but the single refers to the song as "Sadeness (Part I)". Most of the sources refer to the song as "Sadeness (Part I)" and as such, I refer to the song as "Sadeness (Part I)" when talking about the single or the song outside of the "Principles of Lust" track, but refer to it as "Sadeness" when I am talking about the song inside the "Principles of Lust" track, even though they are the same song. I will make it more clear in the singles sub-section that "Sadeness (Part I)" and "Sadeness" are the same song. Lazman321 (talk) 15:28, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Wikilink "The Rivers of Belief"
- Change trip-hop to trip hop, plus replace the semi-colon with a comma
- [15][5][16][17] put in numerical order
- "It is well known" → "The album is well known"
- Remove wikilink on Gregorian chant
- "with sexuality,[19] its lead single, "Sadeness (Part I)" being" → "with sexuality;[19] lead single "Sadeness (Part I)" is"
- Target "Mea Culpa" to "Mea Culpa (Part II)", or are you sure the song shouldn't be listed as the latter title throughout?
Songs[edit]
- "by Michael Cretu[14] and" → "by Cretu,[14] and"
- Wikilink foghorn
- "Sandra Cretu[19] starts talking and invites the listener to relax and" → "Sandra starts talking and invites the listener to relax as well as" but is [19] really needed at all?
- Are you sure all of this sentence is backed up the refs?
- "employs throughout a drumbeat" → employs a drumbeat throughout" with the target
- Target R&B to Contemporary R&B
- Mention the release year of the song and what artist it is by
- Target synth to Synthesizer
- [5][12] should be solely at the end of the sentence before [22]
- "that mark the song breaks." → "that mark the song's break." with the target
- "is the highlight of this track." → "is the first part of the track."
- Remove wikilink on Gregorian chant
- [23][15] put in numerical order
- "Fabrice Cuitad and Frank Peterson." → "Fabrice Cuitad and Peterson."
- Target French to French language
- "by Michael Cretu[14] and samples Maria Callas's singing." → "by Cretu,[14] and samples Maria Callas' singing." with the target
- "was written by Michael Cretu and Fabrice Cuitad[14]" → "was written by Cretu and Fabrice Cuitad,[14]"
- "from the Capella Antiqua München[1]" → "from Capella Antiqua München,[1]"
- ""Mea Culpa's" theme "centers" → "The song's theme "centers"
- "written by Michael Cretu and Frank Peterson," → "written by Cretu and Peterson,"
- "was written solely by Michael Cretu." → "was written solely by Cretu."
Singles[edit]
- This should be kept in the same position, but make the section one of its own because writing about the single releases is not comp info\
- Remove wikilink on "Sadeness (Part I)"
- "of the "The Principles of Lust" track, was released on" → "of the "Principles of Lust" track, was released as the lead single on"
- "7 million copies worldwide" → "7 million copies worldwide,"
- [8][6] put in numerical order
- "The Los Angeles Times reported that the single reached" → "The Los Angeles Times reported that the song reached"
- Remove wikilink on "Mea Culpa (Part II)"
- "was released on" → "was released as the second single on"
- "on the German charts[30] and on the" → "on both the German charts and the" plus move [30] solely to the end of the sentence before [31]
- "number four in France" → "number four in France,"
- Add (SNEP) for the certifier
- "Michael Cretu considers "Mea Culpa (Part II)" his" → "Cretu considers "Mea Culpa (Part II)" his"
- Remove wikilinks on "Principles of Lust" and "The Rivers of Belief"
- "were both released in" → "were both released as singles in"
- "in the United Kingdom at" → "in the UK at"
Critical reception[edit]
- "received generally positive reviews" → "was met with generally positive reviews from music critics." with the target, removing what was praised since that should only be in the lead for album articles
- [20] should not be at the end of the section because the reviews that follow make it clear that reception was generally positive
- Not done – Don't understand where it should be moved to, because NY Times is behind paywall at the moment. Dhtwiki (talk) 09:55, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- I meant the ref should not be invoked at the end of the sentence because it is not needed to back up the reception info; keep the ref in the article being invoked in the others areas though. --K. Peake 13:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not done – Don't understand where it should be moved to, because NY Times is behind paywall at the moment. Dhtwiki (talk) 09:55, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- ""[Michael Cretu had] redefined" → ""[Cretu had] redefined"
- "at number one of "The Top 10 albums from Germany", saying" → "at number one on his "The Top 10 albums from Germany" list, saying:"
- Remove uDiscoverMusic review per discussion
- Merge the two paras now because the first is only three sentences when uDiscoverMusic has been removed
- AllMusic should not be italicised and cut the level of quoting from the review since it is very heavy at the moment
- "Marisa Fox said, on" → "Marisa Fox wrote, for"
- "didn't have as many accessible hits as other albums," → "doesn't have as many accessible hits as other ones,"
- "that he called "irritating"," → "that is "irritating" in his eyes,"
- "said that "Sadeness (Part I)"'s "mellow electrobeat and Gregorian fog provide[s]" → "asserted that the "mellow electrobeat and Gregorian fog" of "Sadeness (Part I)" "provide[s]"
- "and that the other songs" → "and the other songs"
Commercial success[edit]
- Retitle to Commercial performance, as the current title definitely comes across as biased in favor of Enigma
- Should the worldwide sales be here, or would the appropriate placement be at the end of the section instead?
- "entered the record charts at number 60 the week of" → "entered the German Albums chart at number 60 for the week of"
- "at number three the week" → "at number three on the week"
- "the week of 8 July 1991." → "for the week of 8 July 1991."
- "the charts at number 68" → "the chart at number 68 on"
- "at number 69 the week of" → "at number 69 for the week of"
- "The album again re-entered the charts," → "MCMXC a.D. re-entered the German Albums chart,"
- "at number 73 the week of" → "at number 73 on the week of"
- "In the United States, MCMXC a.D. entered" → "In the US, MCMXC a.D. entered"
- "at number 169 the week" → "at number 169 on the week"
- "peaking at number six" → "peaking at number six for"
- "On the Top Catalog Albums chart," → "On the US Top Catalog Albums chart,"
- "at number four the week" → "at number four on the week"
- "it peaked at number 17" → "it peaked at number 17 for"
- "has been certified four-times platinum" → "has since been certified quadruple platinum" with the target
- "the week of 20 January 1991," → "for the week of 20 January 1991,"
- "has been certfied triple platinum" → "has since been certified triple platinum"
- "for shipments in excess of 900,000 copies." → "for shipments in excess of 900,000 copies in the UK."
Controversies[edit]
Satanism rumors[edit]
- "has themes about the balancing of" → "has themes of balancing"
- "Michael Cretu has been accused" → "Cretu was accused"
- "content into MCMXC a.D. " → "content into the album." with the excess space being removed
- "were concerned with the chanting being satanic. This resulted" → "were concerned with Gregorian chant being satanic; this resulted"
- Target Catholic to Catholic Church
- "did not think that the album" → "did not think MCMXC a.D."
- Wikilink press release
- "of satanism in the album. He wanted the" → "of satanism with the album, revealing he wanted the"
- [11][10] put in numerical order
Lawsuit[edit]
- "Michael Cretu claimed that the" → "Cretu claimed that the"
- "used in the album were recorded in Romania and said that" → "used on MCMXC a.D. were recorded in Romania and said"
- "that Cretu got from" → "Cretu got from"
- "and MCMXC a.D." → "and the album."
- [64][23] put in numerical order
- "in MCMXC a.D." → "on MCMXC a.D."
- [23][1] put in numerical order
Track listing[edit]
- No source at the top of this section
- The first track listing should have a title like the others
- Are the titles "Sadeness" and "Mea Culpa" definitely correct?
Personnel[edit]
- Good
Charts[edit]
Weekly charts[edit]
- Should Musica e dischi really be listed in brackets for Italy?
- Remove Top Albums Sales chart since that is not notable
- Every separate chart table should have a caption
Year-end charts[edit]
- Every separate chart table should have a caption
Certifications[edit]
- Sales certifications for MCMXC a.D. → Certifications and sales for MCMXC a.D.
- The Argentina certification doesn't show up from the dead URL
Notes[edit]
- Add a comma after copyright infringement
- but in the "Sadeness (Part I)" liner notes marks → but the "Sadeness (Part I)" liner notes mark
- Make the same change for the note below
References[edit]
- Copyvio score looks good at 28.1%
- Archive all of these by using the tool
- Target Billboard to Billboard (magazine) on ref 1
- Authorlink Stephen Thomas Erlewine on ref 2 and cite AllMusic as publisher instead
- Done for author linking; Not done for citing AllMusic as publisher as per Template:Cite web. The publisher parameter is reserved for the company that publishes the work, not the work itself. Lazman321 (talk) 19:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Wikilink Omnibus Press on ref 3
- Remove or replace refs 4 and 42 per my earlier comment
- Comment: Ref 42 has already been removed by User:Dhtwiki. Ref 4 is usable as a primary source. Lazman321 (talk) 19:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Target Gale Research Inc to Gale (publisher) on ref 5
- WP:OVERLINK of Billboard on ref 6
- Cite BBC instead for ref 7 and as publisher, with the wikilink
- The Daily Inter Lake → Daily Inter Lake on ref 10
- Target Daily News to whichever wiki is appropriate on ref 12
- Done: Linked to The Daily News (Kentucky) Lazman321 (talk) 19:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Wikilink Virgin Records on ref 13
- WP:OVERLINK of Enigma on ref 14
- Wikilink Entertainment Weekly on ref 16
- Cite AllMusic as publisher instead for refs 17 and22, removing the other one
- Target Journal of Religion and Health to Journal of Religion & Health on ref 18
- The Ultimate Guitar → Ultimate Guitar on ref 21 and remove the author
- Target Taylor and Francis to Taylor & Francis on ref 23
- Syracuse Herald Journal → Syracuse Herald-Journal on ref 26
- infodisc.fr → InfoDisc on ref 33
- Wikilink Official Charts Company on ref 36
- Authorlink Robert Christgau on ref 40
- Cite Deutsche Welle as publisher instead for ref 41
- The Official Charts Company → Official Charts Company on ref 51, citing as publisher instead
- Done for changing the name; Not done for citing it as publisher as it is the website name
- Cite austriancharts.at as publisher instead for ref 71
- Not done: austriancharts.at is the website, Hung Medien would be the publisher.
- GfK Entertainment → GfK Entertainment Charts on ref 75
- Done
- Cite swisscharts.com as publisher instead for ref 77
- Not done: swisscharts.com is the website, Hung Medien would be the publisher.
- Try to add an archive for ref 81
External links[edit]
- Retitle the first link to Details of the release of MCMXC a.D. in different countries
Final comments and verdict[edit]
- On hold until the issues are fixed, after I managed to get the review wrapped up today as desired! --K. Peake 21:58, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- Dhtwiki I have responded to your initial comments where anything not done needs covering still. --K. Peake 22:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Kyle Peake I have done most of your requests. I am going to work on the template tags in the background and release section after the New Years' holiday is over. Lazman321 (talk) 19:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Lazman321 That is fine, but you have not cited publishers under references at multiple points where requested when they should be since those websites are always cited as such because they should not be italicised at all; a website can be a publisher, plus fix any citations where you have both a website and publisher by only having one. --K. Peake 10:18, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- My work seems to be complete. The issue relevant to the last remaining citation-needed template that I placed has been resolved by Lazman321. However, now I see, in the talk subsection below, that "AllMusic" is italicized, as I thought it should be as the name of a website. I had undone my italicization, under "Critical reception", when asked to do so by Kyle Peake. Perhaps that needs to be revisited. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:28, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lazman321 and Dhtwiki I am sorry for forgetting to ask this earlier, but should I take one last look through and see if this article is ready for a pass now or there any things you still wish to ask me about? --K. Peake 17:59, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- Kyle Peake You can take one last look at the article to see if anything else needs to be fixed or dealt with. Lazman321 (talk) 18:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
The work and publisher parameters[edit]
It is time I told you that some of your beliefs in how the publisher and work parameters work are wrong. I will be using WP:CS1 as my source.
A lot of citation template uses the work parameter to indicate what work the specific article or page is in. The templates pretty much tell the editors what counts as "work". For example, {{cite web}} says website is a work, and {{cite news}} says newspaper is a work. The help page even clearly says that:
On websites, in most cases "work" is the name of the website (as usually given in the logo/banner area of the site, and/or appearing in the <title> of the homepage, which may appear as the page title in your browser tab, depending on browser).
The help page defines "publisher" as:
The name of the organization that actually published the source.
The publisher parameter is recommended for being used in books, but doesn't always have to be used in other citations. It also lists three instances in citing sources when not to use the publisher parameter:
The "publisher" parameter should not be included for widely-known mainstream news sources, for major academic journals, or where it would be the same or mostly the same as the work.
Also, early on, when defining what "work" is, the help page clearly says:
Do not confuse this with the "publisher" parameter, which is for the publishing company.
Using the information gathered from the help page, your requests related to the work and publisher parameters are wrong:
- Your first request to cite AllMusic as the publisher is wrong because AllMusic is the name of the website and should be used in the work or website parameter. Its actual publisher is RhythmOne.
- Your second request to cite BBC as the publisher is wrong because BBC is the name of the website and should be used in the work, website, or newspaper parameter (depending on the template used). Plus, BBC is a mainstream news source and isn't externally owned by another company with a significant name difference, so the publisher parameter cannot be used at all.
- Your third request to removed RhythmOne from the publisher parameter and to replace it with AllMusic is wrong as RhythmOne does own AllMusic, so they do count as the publisher. Plus, using the publisher parameter for AllMusic isn't forbidden as AllMusic is neither a news source nor an academic journal. It is a music database. RhythmOne and AllMusic are significantly different names.
- Your fourth request to cite Deutsche Welle as the publisher is wrong because Deutsche Welle is the name of the website and should be used in the work, website, or newspaper parameter (depending on the template used). Plus, Deutsche Welle isn't externally owned by another company with a significant name difference.
- Your fifth request to cite Official Charts Company as the publisher is wrong as Official Charts Company is the name of the website and should be used in the work or website parameter. Plus, the website and the company that owns it is identical in naming, meaning the publisher parameter cannot be used at all.
- Your sixth request to cite austriancharts.at as the publisher is wrong because austriancharts.at is the name of the website and should be used in the work or website parameter. Its actual publisher is Hung Medien.
- Your seventh request to cite swisscharts.com as the publisher is wrong because swisscharts.com is the name of the website and should be used in the work or website parameter. Its actual publisher is Hung Medien.
I recommend before responding that you read WP:CS1 yourself for verification and understanding. Then you can make suggestions from there. Thanks. Lazman321 (talk) 20:54, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lazman321 I took a look and you are correct; the refs should not be citing publisher where I have requested for them to do so. However, for cases like AllMusic, they should not be italicised in prose though since things being written out is different from citing work or publisher. --K. Peake 08:48, 2 January 2021 (UTC)