Talk:List of professional sports leagues by revenue/Archive 1

Archive 1

Swiss Super League

this league is mentionend twice: first with country Argentina (obviously wrong) second with country Switzerland (probably correct) --87.79.175.27 (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Motorsports

I think motorsports series as F1, motoGP, NASCAR and Indycar should be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.240.113.52 (talk) 14:31, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Indian Premier League

Why isn't the Indian Premier League on this list? 114.143.120.225 (talk) 14:50, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

If someone wants to edit the list: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/stiff-clauses-leave-only-4-in-race-for-ipl-teams/articleshow/5648934.cms — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.131.23.234 (talk) 15:27, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I am going to replace the wildly overstated number currently included, which in brand value rather than turnover, with an actual turnover number. 81.99.182.245 (talk) 16:58, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Super Rugby

Is Super Rugby considered to be a league or not? If so, then I think it should be included.2.29.24.43 (talk) 14:33, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

UFC

UFC is a private company so it doesn't need to disclose revenue, but estimates have it around $450 million. IT could be interesting to include. Bigbadman (talk) 19:04, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Missing leagues

I noticed that there are a lot of leagues missing from this list. It's of course difficult or even impossible to get all the required revenue(s) (estimates), but shouldn't INCOMPLETE be added to the sentence above the table in this case? I'm mostly missing a lot of (ice) hockey leagues (see List of ice hockey leagues): The Kontinental Hockey League should certainly make the list, and be rather high on it, as should a lot of other European hockey leagues. And from the the minor leagues at least the American Hockey League should also be above the current criterion of €50m total revenue. Short explanation for the latter: There are 30 teams in the AHL, each should have ~20 players in their roster and the minimum salary is ~$40,000 per year. That gets you to a total payroll of at least ~$25m and likely far above that value. Adding other expenditures and assuming that the league is at least near to being profitable the revenue should be easily above €50m, maybe even above €100m. But we of course need to find a good source before we can add either to the list.

I'm also suggesting to raise the criterion for inclusion into the list to €100m total league revenue. The reasons are: 1. It makes it easier to complete (and update) the list as nearly all of the missing leagues should fall between €50m and €100m in total revenue 2. Some of the leagues with an average per team revenue below ~$5m may not even be (fully) professional - depending mostly on the definition of being (fully) professional - and a lot of the leagues with a total revenue between the current cut-off and my suggestion have a per team revenue below $5m.

I also want to note that I do not have any agenda with this suggestion. I'm from Germany and mostly a football (soccer) fan and a number of leagues that interest me (DEL, NASL, Handball-Bundesliga, Basketball Bundesliga, Indian Super League and A-League) would be removed with my suggestion as long as their revenues do not increase. --Sirius3100 (talk) 09:49, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I looked at additional data and now I'm pretty sure that the AHL has a revenue well above €100m per year. The average attendance is ~5700 and a typical season ticket price seem to be ~$600. So the revenue from ticket sales alone is at least ~$100m (likely above as game day tickets are more expensive). Still couldn't find a source though and thus can't add the league. The leagues that I miss in this list, that also should almost certainly have a yearly revenue above €100m are: Kontinental Hockey League, American Hockey League, Pacific Coast League (baseball), the International League (baseball) and the ECHL (hockey). The Canadian Hockey League may also be included, but that depends on whether you see it as professional league and as one league or three leagues. As mentioned it's hard to get actual verifiable numbers to put those leagues into the list, but I may add the 2 baseball leagues mentioned above to the list in a few days. Forbes only published revenues for a few of the teams in those leagues (http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45ggjk/1-sacramento-river-cats/), but even those are enough to push the revenues of both leagues to well above $80m, far above the current inclusion criterion of €50m. --Sirius3100 (talk) 13:35, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

United Soccer League

22:25, 6 August 2015‎ addition by User:Stadiumhopper appears to be improperly sourced. Nothing in the reference article says anything about revenues. Propose deletion of that line unless a credible source is provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BalanceUT (talk • contribs) Edit made to remove United Soccer League entry --BalanceUT (talk) 21:10, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Euros?

This article contains leagues around the world, and generally Wikipedia articles covering international monetary values display these values in US dollars, not Euros. Euros are more proper if the article is specifically regarding European affairs alone, but as the article contains leagues globally (and 4 of the top 5 are North American), it would be more fit to use US dollars. 2601:C2:4003:6580:D1E0:FEC4:5910:5A1D (talk) 01:26, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Euro Dollar Conversion

Why is the Euro dollar conversions in this chart so unreliable? That needs a fix. It's unencyclopedic as it stands.

Also; where are Formula One and NASCAR? --Falcadore (talk) 15:23, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Why are the monetary numbers not in dollars?

The Top 3 leagues are all US leagues yet Euros are shown. Why is a currency being used that has a sports league that is not in the number 1 spot or even 2 or 3. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.69.250 (talk) 03:46, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Another thing NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL never use Euros. Why would numbers be shown in that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.69.250 (talk) 03:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Added the country flags

That was a tedious task but I suppose it was worth it! The countries look so much prettier with their flags. --Coconut1002 (talk) 21:40, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

UEFA Champions League

I think the Champions League has to be included. There's no reason to not include it.95.144.243.167 (talk) 19:44, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I've added it. They report the revenue together for both Europa League and Champions League. The ratio they use to distribute the earnings is 3.3:1 so I used the same to estimate the revenue from the Champions League / Europa League. 76.10.0.20 (talk) 20:52, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Where is Formula One?

There are some very large numbers passed around for Formula One and I'm sure NASCAR is impressive too. Where are they? F1 revenuve I've seen as 1.8 billion in 2014. --Falcadore (talk) 22:18, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Whether it should delineate it or not, this article is only talking about "Team" league organizations I believe. I know that there are "teams" per se in motor sports, but, not in the traditional "team sports" sense. NASCAR and F1 are like the PGA, WTA/ATP, etc, and are considered individual "tour" sports organizations.

Faulty Numbers

At least for "Minor League Baseball" as a whole (which is how it is being listed here), the article used to get the number ( http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2016/06/13/Leagues-and-Governing-Bodies/MiLB-merchandise.aspx ?) is ONLY talking about merchandise sales.... that isn't counting tickets, advertising, etc. That revenue number is WAY low for MiLB, I am not saying I have the "right" number, but, just saying, that number is a fraction of what it really is. Dletter (talk) 15:39, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Expanding on this, this article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2016/07/08/minor-league-baseballs-most-valuable-teams/#56271e0c43b2) gives the revenues for 2 of the top minor league teams, and they are around $16-18 million each, so, the number given here is ridiculous for all 160 teams in MiLB. One could argue that the MiLB leagues should be split out by individual league, and only the leagues whose teams make over the $50m mark for this chart should be listed(?) Dletter (talk) 15:47, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

NFL/NBA

The first entry on the list is NFL, but the rest of the information in that row seems to be for the NBA (US/Canada, 30 teams, ~$5.9 billion revenue, reference is to a Forbes article that discusses the NBA and not the NFL). The NFL has 32 teams, all based in the USA (though some games each year are played in Canada, the UK, and Mexico) and something on the order US$13 billion in revenue to my recollection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:9440:6E5C:C46F:8F4F:7D64:9689 (talk) 09:38, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Other Sports Competitions

I see no reason not to include FIFA World Cup and other competitions. A league is basically just a tournament with more matches per team (For example in NFL the champion played only 19 matches, in MLB 180 matches, so 7 matches for FIFA World Cup winner should also be included). If you don't think all of them fit on the same place, the least is to create a separate page for them. I still like to see all of them on the same page for better comparison. Perhaps after we include other competitions, we can list only the top 100 competitions with the most revenue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SimTheWorld (talk • contribs) 23:00, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

NASCAR

should be included on this list. Over $3B annually in revenue, and while there's team variation -- heaven knows the Yankees and Brewers don't make the same amount of money in baseball -- that shouldn't be a bar to the league being included. If an average is struck with a note at the bottom with specifics, that would be useful. But NASCAR should be here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/285136/racing-teams-of-nascar-ranked-by-team-value-2013/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.32.62.205 (talk) 08:55, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 5 January 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure) Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 19:13, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

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List of professional sports leagues by revenue → List of sports competitions by revenue

I believe we should consider moving this page to a new page called "List of sports competitions by revenue" (since the professional part is redundant See this page for example). That way the list could be more comprehensive, and include other competitions that their comparison with the leagues in this list would gve better prespective to the financial impact of the leagues (for example FIFA World Cup, Olympic Games). In addition, some leagues are quite short (UEFA Champions League, NFL), and although I consider them as legitimate leagues, other people may disagree, and moving this page would make the distinction more clear. Please write what you think, I plan moving it next week unless I get too many objections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SimTheWorld (talk • contribs) 19:08, 30 December 2017 (UTC) 00:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 18:48, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Please use the procedure at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves. Using {{subst:requested move}} will cause a bot to place a requested move template at top of the article where it's seen by more users. I have reverted your move for now and used {{subst:requested move}} above. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:44, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Comparing completely different types of events may be confusing. If it's moved then I think there should be a "Type" column. Possible values may include "League" for leagues of teams playing eachother during a season, "Multi" for multi-sport events like the Summer Olympics, "Single" for one event with one sport like Wimbledon, and "Series" for a series of events in one sport like Formula One. The table is sortable so users could click the Type column to compare Leagues and so on. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:58, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter: I apologize, didn't realize there is a procedure in place for making the move. Returning to subject, I completely agree with PrimeHunter's suggestion of adding a "Type" column to the table when the page is moved. SimTheWorld (talk) 01:18, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

If we're going to include non-league competitions, then yes, a move is appropriate. I do have a question of scope creep though: Is it even desirable to include things like the Olympics, World Cup or Wimbledon in the first place? Resolute 18:23, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

• Support, per PrimeHunter's version, i.e. we'll need to reorganize it a bit to avoid confusion, as there really is a difference between venues for, e.g., American football leagues versus those built for the Olympics or whatever. We just don't need a bunch of fragmentary separate list articles for them. Sublists in the same article will do. Nominator is correct that "professional" is redundant; we're not going to have a list of venues for amateur competition, by revenue (such venues do exist, e.g. high-school football stadiums, which do charge an entrance fee, but they're not notable and we're not going to have RS info on their revenue anyway, where it even counts as revenue rather than costs-offsetting).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  12:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. It’s comparing apples and oranges. There is a good reason why the wiki pages on sports attendance break out separately leagues from other types of competitions. There is already a lot of information crammed into the table on this page. We do not need to add more columns. Feel free to start a new article for sports tournament revenues, if reliable information is available (probably had to come by for a number of competitions). CUA 27 (talk) 13:44, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose: It's a stupid idea — Preceding unsigned comment added by LOS DOVAKINS (talk • contribs) 17:44, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

• Question: I don't understand why you say that this is comparing apples to oranges more than now? Some league are already very short, and are not a round robin competition anyway (NFL for example). Why are they more of a league than UEFA Champions League, or the FIFA World Cup? SimTheWorld (talk) 06:43, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Faulty Numbers

At least for "Minor League Baseball" as a whole (which is how it is being listed here), the article used to get the number ( http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2016/06/13/Leagues-and-Governing-Bodies/MiLB-merchandise.aspx ?) is ONLY talking about merchandise sales.... that isn't counting tickets, advertising, etc. That revenue number is WAY low for MiLB, I am not saying I have the "right" number, but, just saying, that number is a fraction of what it really is. Dletter (talk) 15:39, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Expanding on this, this article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2016/07/08/minor-league-baseballs-most-valuable-teams/#56271e0c43b2) gives the revenues for 2 of the top minor league teams, and they are around $16-18 million each, so, the number given here is ridiculous for all 160 teams in MiLB. One could argue that the MiLB leagues should be split out by individual league, and only the leagues whose teams make over the $50m mark for this chart should be listed(?) Dletter (talk) 15:47, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

IMO, this hasn't been dealt with, but should. Can we have some discussion here? I think we should at minimum remove "Minor League Baseball" as a line item... that isn't a "specific" league, it is an "overhead" organization of all of the "official" Minor Leagues in the Major League Baseball "Minors tree". Each individual North American baseball minor league that has a value that meets the minimum of the page should be listed separately. Dletter (talk) 16:30, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Major league Soccer

The table of total revenue doesn't seem to be sorting Major League Soccer properly. It always gets placed at the bottom.Rowei99 (talk) 17:25, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Fixed by using the same code as the other rows.[1] PrimeHunter (talk) 16:12, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Moto GP and Golf is missing

Moto GP and Golf is missing — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaisonshereen (talk • contribs) 09:44, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@Jaisonshereen: The list is for leagues with teams. Golf does not qualify. I don't know how Moto GP is organized. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:25, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

All motorsport is based around team structure. Regular edittors of this article have invented a criteria that a sporting league can only be contested by sports where two teams playing against each other in a single match are the only sports allowed to be included and reject all arguements to the contrary. So no NASCAR, no Formula One, no World Rally Championship, no World Endurance Championship and no MotoGP. --Falcadore (talk) 00:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

There have been disagreements about what to include. Formula One was added in December 2017 [2] and NASCAR in March 2018 [3]. I don't think they belong but haven't removed them. Talk:List of professional sports leagues by revenue/Archive 1#Requested move 5 January 2018 had no consensus to increase the scope and move to "List of sports competitions by revenue". PrimeHunter (talk) 08:26, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

esports

ESL / Faceit now have major events in sports arenas, paid teams. Are they not classified as professional?

Before I go gathering all the stats to add ESL One/Faceit Majors/etc, is this suitable for this article or? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TechieJack (talk • contribs) 14:12, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

They are, but it has to be a league with the same teams, not just a tour like ESL One - see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esports#:~:text=Esports%20(also%20known%20as%20electronic,players%2C%20individually%20or%20as%20teams. If you could gather the information it would be amazing. Already added Overwatch league. SimTheWorld (talk) 01:56, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Box Lacrosse

The National Lacrosse League (indoor box lacrosse) has revenues of about $40,300,000 according to https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/national-lacrosse-league#section-lists-featuring-this-company, but it's unclear how recent or accurate that data is.

Doesn't seem like a good source. See: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/24/national-lacrosse-league-continues-sponsorship-streak-with-att-deal.html#:~:text=The%20agreement%20is%20expected%20to,from%20%242%20million%20in%202016. SimTheWorld (talk) 01:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Euros?

Wtf? Why are the dollar amounts listed in Euros? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:80CE:A200:E527:9690:166E:135E (talk) 15:53, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

This was done, since most of the amounts are reported in Euros (most are European Football Leagues) SimTheWorld (talk) 02:23, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

La liga numbers misleading?

The La Liga numbers seem to be a combination of both the first and second divison revenues, is it not misleading to compare the revenues of 2 leagues to one? They were announced by Javier Tabas who oversees both the first and second divisions. This list lists both the english premiers and the football league as 2 seperate comptitions so why dont we do the same for the Spanish? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:7019:0:580E:210D:6137:2642 (talk) 07:17, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok i found a better source that lists ONLY the revenues of the first divisons, which is a fairer comparison to many of the other leagues as they are just the top level https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/sports-business-group/articles/annual-review-of-football-finance.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:7019:0:580E:210D:6137:2642 (talk) 07:28, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Indian Premier League (IPL) not sorting correctly

Sort by Reve­nue(€ mil) ascending and the IPL is first when it shouldn't be. I don't lnow how to fix this.

fixed--Simbadwiki (talk) 07:02, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

IPL Revenue

Referenced article for IPL revenue states IPL earned ₹4,000 crore which would convert to 455,000 Euro. DimbleFiddlefin (talk) 22:22, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

References

List Inaccuracies

I think there are several errors in this list, my apologies if I am misunderstanding what is being measured here but, I think the other commenters are correct, additionally the NFL is not included on this list which seems to be an error. I’m sorry I am not entirely sure on how to correct these errors. Thank you. Upmostlizard (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:17, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Upmostlizard: The page history [4] shows that vandalism replaced NFL with Indian Premier League yesterday. I have reverted it. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:03, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Champions League figure isn’t comparable

The revenue figure for the CL is what UEFA makes mostly sponsors and TV rights and this money is given out in prize money. It is not the combined revenues of the 32 teams who compete in the Champions League. The revenue figure for all other leagues are the combined team revenues. 86.165.153.185 (talk) 19:41, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

It's not true, it includes tickets from the matches and such, just look at the reference SimTheWorld (talk) 00:53, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

It doesn’t. The ticket revenue in the source shows ticket revenue of only €26.9m in 2018/19. That clearly isn’t ticket revenue for all 32 participants.

If you look up the Deloitte Money League report you can see Real Madrid, Barca, Man City and Liverpool alone have combined greater revenues than the €2.4bn the Champions League makes which makes no sense as they all played in the CL that season. The revenue figure isn’t the combined revenues of all teams like it is in all the other leagues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.153.185 (talk) 04:37, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

NCAA revenues

As mentioned, NCAA are now considered professional, since players may get compensation. I do think we need to have some guidelines on what to present here, since march madness for example is not a league but a tournament. This article has summed the revenues for the 130 teams in all sports: https://www.businessinsider.com/college-sports-football-revenue-2017-10 I believe we should use it to present the number for all relevant leagues, instead of only the power five conference for example, since any team may become champion there in theory. The number of matches would be hard to find, although they can be summed form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NCAA_Division_I_FBS_football_season (but they might as well be left empty if necessary), but other than that, we have all the values we need. SimTheWorld (talk) 16:52, 20 November 2021 (UTC) @ DavidESPN (talk · contribs) "DavidESPN" here, the Power Five conferences best represent the "2nd Division" of American Football. There's a clear distinction between those 5 and the rest. Frankly I think each Conference could be listed individually, including the AAC, Mtn West, Sun Belt, MAC (each Conference has it's own Champion each year). I'll review the link you posted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidESPN (talk • contribs) 03:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Indian Premier League Revenue as opposed to Valuation

There have been many edits to the IPL figures that cite sources which show the IPL's "Valuation" rather than the league's actual "Revenue." This has lead to very distorted data on this list and many erroneous edits. The "Valuation" of IPL is $5 or 6 Billion, the "Revenue" of IPL was $680 Million (2019). For comparison, the NBA's "Valuation" would be about $66 Billion (30 teams), but the NBA's "Revenue" was $7.4 Billion (2018-19). Listing the IPL's "Valuation" distorts things. -- posted by DavidESPN — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidESPN (talk • contribs) 03:25, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

List of professional sports leagues AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS by revenue; UEFA, Libertadores, UFC, NASCAR etc

The page title should probably be changed. The team "League" might be too limiting, or perhaps the purpose of this page should be expanded to "Sports Entities" or "Sports Organizations."

@ SimTheWorld, on the matter of the NCAA Basketball/March Madness, whatever applies to that Tournament, also applies these other Tournaments on the list (which are also not "Leagues"): UEFA Champions League, Copa Libertadores, UEFA Europa League, Super Rugby(?), Copa Sudamerica, United Rugby Championship, etc.

Also, Sports Entities on this list, like Formula 1, NASCAR, MotoGP, are not "Leagues." They are a collection of events.

Further, the sport of Mixed Martial Arts does not have "Leagues," per se, but rather has Promotion Organizations such as the UFC, Bellator MMA, and ONE Championship. Recently, information about the UFC and Bellator's Revenue became publicly available as the result of an anti-trust lawsuit. I could put together those figures and add them to this list soon. Also, Boxing has it's own Promotion Orgs, there's also the World Boxing Super Series, which holds lucrative pro boxing tournaments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidESPN (talk • contribs) 02:10, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Nwsl..

Do we bot have numbers for women's soccer in USA, NWSL 2601:1C2:1300:38E0:9408:7C5C:C494:F135 (talk) 20:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

OLD DATA REFLECTING

The data is quite old (by 2 years). Please update new information — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam.mysteryshopper1 (talk • contribs) 14:33, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

NFL league revenue for 2021

Sportico estimates NFL revenue at $18 billion for the 2021 season.

DimbleFiddlefin (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

References

English Premier League

Hey y'all, maybe I'm just missing it, but I can't seem to find the English Premier League on the list anywhere. It would seem to me that this would probably be in the top 5 highest revenue teams, but for the life of me I can't find it on the list. Navarre0107 (talk) 06:41, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

It's there in 4th place. Spike 'em (talk) 06:51, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

NCAA inclusion is incorrect and OR

Not only does it rest upon a line of thinking that is not supported by the sources but requires drawing a conclusion based on synthesizing multiple sources, which is utterly unacceptable and a total violation of Wikipedia policy, but even the conclusion drawn is straight up wrong and misinformed. No NCAA player is paid for playing by the schools, so they do not fit the definition of professional. One editor, who has edit warred while logged out, is insisting on routinely and cluelessly inserting an completely incorrect interpretation of the results of a court case that said the NCAA's old rules banning players profiting off their name and likeness were unconstitutional, so the NCAA issued new regulations permitting that. That does not make the players professional, as they are not paid for playing. The conclusion is not only SYNTH, it's incorrect SYNTH. Please stop changing the scope of this list based on being completely wrong. oknazevad (talk) 14:41, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Nasty Tone

There is an editor here named whom insists on belittling, insulting, and angrily insisting this views on certain topics are the only right ones. In the last week, he uses words like "period", "clueless" and other strong language to insist his way is the only way. Furthermore, he accuses others of being in an editing war when HE is the one whom started the edits and then undoes any revisions. His tone is unnecessary even as he accuses others of being in violation of Wikipedia's policies. Who died and made you the Wikipedia editing king? 184.185.32.182 (talk) 14:51, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Changing the scope of articles regardless of objections and lack of consensus, misunderstanding sources to push a version that contains basic errors of fact, edit warring to revert despite not addressing the errors, and editing under multiple user names and while logged out to make it appear that you are more than one editor. These are the things you've done that fail Wikipedia policies and user terms. I'm sorry, you have no leg to stand on. If you have a problem with my inability to accept what are clearly improper behaviors, take it up with an admin. oknazevad (talk) 17:13, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

You are going against policies such as NPA, AGF and OWN. Spike 'em (talk) 10:06, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Champions League

2 billion in [revenue](https://www.statista.com/statistics/279067/uefa-champions-league-revenue/) but a bit confusing to include, given the overlapping and shifting participants? still seems worth considering.

IMO, as F1 and NASCAR Cup Series are included, there should be also a place for the UEFA Champions League (and possibly also UEFA Europa League and Copa Libertadores). Grillofrances (talk) 23:26, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I disagree. Yes they're annual tournaments, but they're tournaments, not leagues. NASCAR, F1, and other motorsports groups are touring leagues. That said, I'd actually rather remove them than keep them and use that as justification for further inclusion of non-league competitions. There's a clear consensus looking at the talk page archives to exclude them. It was one editor who unilaterally attempted to expand the scope beyond the consensus that added them. I'm perfectly ok with ditching the motorsports bodies. oknazevad (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Nascar, F1, are definitely not "Leagues," they're circuits. It's questionable that those activities are even true sports, hence the qualification in the name "motor"-sports, not to mention the "E"-sports and such. The reason I initially included Combat Sports organizations and Tennis Tours, etc, was because non "Leagues" like UEFA and the Libertadores were included. Why would the the scope of this page not be expanded to include such important, notable, significant Sports Tournaments, Circuits, etc? With the distinctions being noted they way they were, what's the problem? What's the reason to reject expanding the scope of the page? It makes it more useful to the end user. DavidESPN (talk) 02:18, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Race driving is completely an athletic activity. So that's why I object to the claim it's a "pseudo sport". Again, though, I'd rather remove the motor sports circuits as out of scope, though, because they're not the same as a league.

Look, there was a rejection of changing the scope because it would be comparing apples and oranges. The proposal to move the page was rejected. Going ahead and adding the stuff anyway is clearly against consensus. oknazevad (talk) 02:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Where is there a definition of what constitutes a "league" or "tournament"? How does the Champions League differ from the NFL? Both have a league phase followed by a knockout phase. Spike 'em (talk) 10:08, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Permanent (or semi-permanent, when promotion and relegation is accounted for) vs annual qualification where participation is not based on the prior year's participation, but results in a separate competition. oknazevad (talk) 23:44, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Where was this definition agreed on, and why isn't it mentioned in the article? Spike 'em (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Baseball revenue misleading

At the time of this comment, the listed revenue for baseball is from a pre-pandemic period making it relatively higher in comparison to other sports than it likely normally would be. It needs to be updated. [[Special:Contributions, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Baseball revenue for the 2021-2022 season was between $10.8 - $10.9 billion slightly higher than what is listed. . DimbleFiddlefin (talk) 14:10, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Countries/flags used

If the number of teams is determined by the referenced season, should we apply the same policy in regards of the mentioned countries? Or is it preferred to rather list countries from the current season? Which criteria are we using? Respublik (talk) 21:46, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Most of the leagues listed have stable or even permanent memberships (no promotion and relegation in many of these leagues), so I don't think the current season has much effect on which flags are displayed.

that said, per MOS:FLAG, should we ditch that flags altogether? oknazevad (talk) 03:47, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Unrelated to the previous topics but still falls under "countries/flags used." Regarding the NHL, I argue the ordering of the flags. I believe it should be Canada ordered above the USA, irrespective of the current location of the HQ or what the majority of teams are in the NHL. I believe this as the NHL was founded in Canada. Claiming the NHL is an "American league at this point," is very argumentative and not at all "reality," as one can argue the size of franchises, fanbase sizes, originality, etc. In addition, solely because "earliest references" had USA above Canada does not make it correct. The NRL has Australia at the top (country of foundation), Swiss Super League has Switzerland at the top (country of foundation), Ligue 1 with France at the top regardless of Monaco's role, and other leagues with multiple countries follow this as well, including the NBA and the MLB. As per MOS:FLAG, it is very clear that nationalism is not condoned. Wikipedia is not a place for nationalistic pride, and I cannot see why you would continue to place the USA above Canada regardless of its current majority composition other than some perspective where you believe USA should be placed above Canada in a random text for whatever reason. On this note, I am reversing the change. Strojae (talk) 07:28, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, not a place for nationalistic pride. So being headquartered in the US and having over 3/4 of the team in the league in the US makes it an objective fact that the NHL is primarily a US-based league. All those other examples you list all follow the same idea: majority of teams and main office location. Just so happens that those are also country of foundation, but that is coincidental. oknazevad (talk) 13:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Where does it state it must be ordered based on the country where there are the majority of composing teams? It could also be argued that it is coincidental that they are also in the order of majority of teams and main office location. It literally only makes more sense to have the founding country at the top first and include the other participating countries. It seems you are attempting to imply that the founding country has no relevance and are attempting to claim that because the USA is now the majority of the teams, it does not matter where it was founded—MOS:COA, "Flags should not be used to misrepresent the nationality of a historical figure, event, object, etc."—is this an attempt to claim that the USA founded it? I still don't see why putting the founding country above doesn't make more sense. Once again, both sides could be argued as coincidence but I believe mine has more validity and value to the tables in terms of information. Strojae (talk) 00:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Another point, the United Rugby Championship should be ordered Italy, South Africa, Wales, and then Italy and Scotland using your logic of majority composition—but it is not. It is ordered, very clearly, with the founding country at the top, supporting my argument. Strojae (talk) 00:30, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Expanding the scope of this article / Creating a new article

I find myself going to the previously edited versions of this article for the information I need/want; namely, the inclusion of "Tournaments," "Circuits," "College Sports," "Promotion Organizations." It sounds like other people/users/editors also see value in those versions of this article. So what is the process for expanding the scope of an article, in general, and specifically expanding this one so as to include more than just "Pro" sports "Leagues" per se?

How about keeping the "Pro League" list as it is, and simply adding a new sub-section in the article where the "non-Pro League" can also be listed, for example?

And if that's an impossibility, how about creating a new, unique article for such a topic/list? Is that somehow prohibited or a violation or something?

Reminders to the powers that be:

- Assume good faith

- Be polite and avoid personal attacks

- Be welcoming to newcomers

- Seek dispute resolution if needed

Thanks. DavidESPN (talk) 01:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Isn't wikipedia meant to use US standards where there's a conflict? I.e. in this article it would mean converting to USD (rather than Euros). It would also make sense to use USD as it's the world's reserve currency. (I might be wrong, but thought worth mentioning.) 159.196.171.60 (talk) 19:28, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Polish speedway

Feel free to correct me because I've never seen any speedway competition in my life, but as far as I've understood from the source, each of these teams has a home venue and plays there, thus meeting the previously discussed definition of a league rather than being a traveling tour like the Formulas, Nascar, etc... The source goes on about the matchday revenue being generated by these teams.

Tagging @Oknazevad

Relevant edit [5] Respublik (talk) 17:45, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, that's interesting. Never seen a motorsport with home teams like that before. I'm not opposed to its inclusion then. oknazevad (talk) 18:06, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Polish wiki pl:Speedway Ekstraliga (2021) seems to also describe exactly such a format, so I'm being bold and reverting then. Respublik (talk) 18:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)