Talk:List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom by length of tenure

Opening comment

Using the order by length puts 20 at 2 - should 0 be put in front of the number of years?

This ordering doesn't work at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.14.48 (talk) 19:26, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

It appears the solution for the sorting is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Sorting#Specifying_a_sort_key_for_a_cell for anyone who wants to do the work. 103.4.125.25 (talk) 23:52, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:51, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

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List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom by term length → List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom by tenure — Or "by length of office", or something similar. Quite simply, there isn't such a thing as a "prime ministerial term" in the UK – unlike countries with presidential systems such as the US, the PM formally serves at the pleasure of the monarch, and doesn't serve a fixed term in office. Should a PM lose the confidence of the Commons (for example, if the current coalition government were to collapse) then new elections would have to be held. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 01:00, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Propaniac (talk) 18:52, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Manual nature of the ranking

The list is manual in nature. This means that every time the incumbent (Cameron in this case) exceeds some former PM in tenure, the list becomes inaccurate. Someone (I don't know how to) should work on making this list automated so that the list is accurate without human intervention. Ratibgreat (talk) 13:26, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Length of tenure sort doesn't work

The length of tenure is purely numeric, so two hundred-odd days gets sorted as longer than 2 years. Could someone fix that? --Newbiepedian2 (talk) 19:52, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

How many ministries?

Given that the PM serves at the pleasure of the monarch have Cameron and May really had two ministries? Heath is surely similar to the May case in that he tried and failed to secure a majority: he is down as 1 ministry. 82.9.227.69 (talk) 11:27, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Incorrect tenure for John Russell, 1st Earl Russell?

Going by the dates of tenure in their respective Wikipedia entries it looks like the tenure of Russell is incorrect which means that Attlee, Cameron and Russell are in the wrong positions.

By my calculations Cameron was in office 6 years 65 days, Attlee 6 years 93 and Russell 6 years and 112 days. Russell is down in the article as being 6 years 11 days.

Calculations for Cameron and Attlee don't match exactly due to leap years, but that's a whole other can of worms as the UK didn't adopt the Gregorian calendar until 1752. Chris Hall (talk) 13:11, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Having had no comments on this and also having double checked the figures I am confident that I am correct in this and will make the necessary changes to the article. Chris Hall (talk) 08:41, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Add a "cause for end of tenure" column?

Thought this might be interesting, just a word or two like "resigned", "lost general election", "died". Shouldn't take too long to research Dhalamh (talk) 11:25, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Sometimes a PM has formally resigned but in reality he/she was ousted by a mutiny in parliament or within their own party. Examples: Chamberlain and Boris - perhaps Truss too, in not too long.., ;) 188.150.64.57 (talk) 22:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

There's room in that table for an extra column. For compactness, I suggest one-word entries, such as "resigned", "election", "replaced", "illness", "died".

If a PM issues a statement of resignation, then that's "resigned", regardless of what led to it. Bazza (talk) 09:15, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

I've been WP:BOLD and added it. Bazza (talk) 09:58, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that, looks good.Dhalamh (talk) 12:47, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2022

Changing the ranks to reflect the ascending order of time in office I0null (talk) 13:16, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. MadGuy7023 (talk) 17:12, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2022 (2)

Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair each had 3 terms and David Cameron had 2 terms but the table wrongly says they each had 1. Please correct this. 2A00:23C6:7F89:9001:9155:FD70:8D5A:FE09 (talk) 13:27, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

It's separate terms of office not elections won. 51.149.8.88 (talk) 14:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

United Kingdom?

Maybe this is splitting hairs but the title of this article is “List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom by length of tenure” and 12 of the people on this list were never prime minister of the United Kingdom. Indeed, the number one spot is held by Robert Walpole, who died decades before the United Kingdom came into existence. I realize the United Kingdom is the successor state to the Kingdom of Great Britain, but they are not the same country.--Lairor (talk) 15:36, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

It's worth discussing, also note that Walpole specifically rejected the title of 'Prime Minister' and there's lots of debate about how long he served; so even if he is included, having his tenure in days seems more precise than we can actually prove. JeffUK (talk) 15:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I added some explanation to the lead as to why we're including the first two. That should head off any confusion for now. Whether or not Walpole should be included is a point worth raising, for sure. -- Hux (talk) 18:07, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2022 (3)

Change 'Tony Blair' to 'Sir Tony Blair' since he was knighted earlier in 2022. Danjievans (talk) 15:39, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

this is only for consistency within the document (i.e, Churchill is 'Sir Winston Churchill'). I am not seeking to weigh in on whether he deserve(d/s) one. Danjievans (talk) 15:41, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

 Already done by User:Hawthorneabendsen Terasail^[✉️] 17:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2022 (4)

Henry Pelham is listed as serving '10 years, 191 days'. However, the UK switch to the Gregorian calendar occurred in 1753, during his tenure, so the rote calculation of days from 27 August 1743 to 6 March 1754 (as listed in his article's infobox) is too large by 11 days. Therefore, please change the table entry to '10 years, 180 days'.

Any duration calculator can confirm this, say be first entering the same dates for the years 1943 to 1954. On the other hand, it is perhaps possible that his article is written entirely in "old-style" or in "new-style" dates, and no change is needed here. Clarification would be welcome. 96.5.122.4 (talk) 17:07, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. MadGuy7023 (talk) 17:12, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Truss tenure

Truss Tenure - Surely we don’t yet know what her tenure is until a successor is elected? She remains PM until a successor is chosen. Truss has indicated it will be “less than a week” so shouldn’t we say “44 to 51 days” for now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BeaujolaisFortune (talk • contribs) 13:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

She indicated there will be 'an election' in less than a week, this surely can't include balloting the membership if that is necessary; so may only be the start of the election process not the end. Postal strikes won't help! JeffUK (talk) 15:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

It does include balloting the membership if more than one candidate remains but it will be online (so unaffected by postal strikes). The earliest the new PM can be in is Monday, the latest Friday 28th. BeaujolaisFortune (talk) 17:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

We don't know. All we can say is that she announced her resignation after 44 days and has announced that she intends to be replaced 'within a week'. '44 to 51' if you prefer. Tomorrow she will have been 45 days in office, and 46 the day after. The reference we are currently using is so poor that it even calls her the 'former PM'. We should strive for more accuracy. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington

Why isn't Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington mentioned in this list? --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 20:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

He's listed, but as 'The Duke of Wellington'. That seems to be the convention on this page for whatever reason. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 06:34, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2022

Could you change the "notes" code? Using a Greek alpha is unusual, and the code is more complicated than normal. You could replace this code

{{ref|Alpha|α}}

with this:

{{efn|In this table, "Terms" is the number of [[Term of office#House of Commons|separate, discontiguous periods]] served as prime minister.}}

And then, just replace the entire contents of the "Notes" section with {{notelist}} Thank you. 120.21.143.198 (talk) 23:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I removed the note and replaced it with plain text above the table. It's more obvious there, especially as the note's "tooltip" is obscured by the table's sorting function's own tooltip. Bazza (talk) 19:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. MadGuy7023 (talk) 17:12, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Are we seriously going to be editing Liz Truss's tenure time every day up one until the day she is replaced?

This is stupid. --Alexysun (talk) 03:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

As long as she's listed here and remains in post, it's going to keep changing. At least it's done automatically. One option is to remove her from this list, which may be correct but I don't see flying. Another is to qualify the number somehow to indicate it's not final. Your thoughts on how we can do that? -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 06:19, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I didn't know it was automatic. She will be out of office tomorrow and replaced by Rishi Sunak, so it's fine. Alexysun (talk) 15:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Interestingly (in a way), there have only been two Prime Ministers from Norfolk constituencies, and they have been the longest-serving (Walpole) and the shortest-serving (Truss). Hogweard (talk) 17:29, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

references

@Bazza 7: I'm unclear why you reverted my edit based on two factually inaccurate claims. 1) "references are required" I did not remove the reference, I simply moved them to another column. 2) "the same references are not used throughout the table" that is quite literally and precisely false, you can see that they are with your own eyes, it's the exact same two references invoked 55-56 times, which is unnecessary. If you want the table to stay as it was, that's a discussion that can be had, but don't lie. Nevermore27 (talk) 09:05, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

@Nevermore27: WP:AGF and don't WP:PA please. The first row in the list had one reference, the rest two. By my long-standing reckoning, that quite literally and precisely means "the same references are not used throughout the table".

The .gov.uk reference gives years of office only, not precise dates to back up the precision in the table; and the Oxford reference is for the 29 Oxford-educated PMs only, and ought to be removed from those PMs not so enlightened. I have made that change and removed the imprecise .gov.uk references from those 29. The table now contains a mix of references. Better references for lengths of tenure are needed in place of the .gov.uk ones, likely found at many of the PMs' articles. Bazza (talk) 09:36, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

@Bazza 7 one reference was used 56 times and the other was used 55 times, and no other references were used. that quite literally means that the same references were used throughout the table. Not sure why you're belaboring the point when you even recognize that simple fact. thank you for adding alternate references. there were no personal attacks in my inital message, nor was I assuming bad faith, hence why I asked you about your edit in the first place, so please sort out your understanding of Wikipedia policy. Nevermore27 (talk) 09:45, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm labouring the point because of your unpleasant response. You ordered me not to lie, which at the least implies that you think I lied rather than made a mistake or had a different point of view. I interpret that as a WP:PA.

@Nevermore27: Your edit summary for removing the reference column was "having a column devoted to the exact same reference 56 times seems odd to me". There were not 56 occurrences of the same referencing: the first row had a single reference, the rest two. Distilling this to a single pair of references in the table header loses that distinction: the second reference is not valid for the first row. Bazza (talk) 10:05, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

@Bazza 7 goodness fucking gracious you're tiresome Nevermore27 (talk) 17:30, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Sunak photo

Before Truss's resignation, Truss's portrait was the fifth to stipulate she was the most recent Prime Minister, prior to her becoming the shortest-serving.

Since the most recent Prime Minister is now Sunak, I think Sunak's portrait should be added as a fifth Mythlike-Cell (talk) 11:08, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The article is about tenure length. The portraits at the start are of people with notable lengths: specifically the two longest, and two shortest. As Sunak has only just started, it's not yet possible to make any judgment about his tenure. Bazza (talk) 11:33, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2022

As per the last edit Liz Truss should be at 49 days not 50. DxnM99 (talk) 14:36, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

It is because the term lengths in List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom are counted by {{Age in years and days}} with "duration=on", which is wrong. It should only be used when the start date and end date are both counted as full day, which is not the case.--203.218.141.176 (talk) 14:45, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I've fixed it and added a reference. Bazza (talk) 15:03, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

This is so dumb the count is the number of days not hour to hour, she served on for 50 different days, just because 2 of them were half days the count should be based on the days themselves, with a partial day counting as a full day, she served as PM on September 6 and October 25 and on the 48 days in-between total 50 days. Here's a reference if you need one to 50 days. 69.116.75.22 (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

See List of presidents of the United States by time in office, "duration=on" was not used for a term length. I think you don't know how to count.--203.218.141.176 (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. --Kristiannumber1 (talk) 19:17, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

References

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Liz Truss official portrait.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:53, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Tenure days - inclusive or exclusive of partial days?

So I noticed some recent edits that point out that since we know exactly when Truss stopped being PM, we can state her tenure length as 49 days, despite the fact that (excuse the awkward wording) on 50 calendar days as per British summertime (full or partial), she was the (or one of two) prime ministers of the UK.

Having checked some of the older examples, it looks like tenure is calculated inclusive of the start and end days. So my question is - should we just be consistent and calculate all tenures inclusive of both dates?

Either way, I doubt we'll be able to be consistent the other way, i.e. taking times into account for the older PMs, as we don't know and probably can't find out what time of the day they spoke to the monarch. EditorInTheRye (talk) 09:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

(courtesy ping of @Shipping address: and @Bazza 7:, since I'm mentioning your edits EditorInTheRye (talk) 09:07, 26 October 2022 (UTC))

@EditorInTheRye: Thanks for bringing this anomaly back to a rational discussion. Some sources state 49 days, others 50, others try to approximate it. Wikipedia insists on reliable sources, and requires us not to roll our own. When two equally reliable sources contradict, then we should use both and note the contradiction. Any instances of 49 or 50 should be changed to 49–50, with a note added to explain the two figures, and a reference for each given. It might look clumsy, but objectors should change the policy before embarking on another round of uncivil edit-warring. Bazza (talk) 10:02, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Actually, in this case it's not about what the sources say. The WP:CALC section in WP:OR policy says it's fine to do routine calculations, so what we're discussing here is consensus for how that calculation is made (we have the start and end dates - they're not in dispute. We just need to decide what to do with them).

List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom makes use of {{Age in years and days}} with the duration=on parameter, resulting in the "both inclusive" calculation. This is probably true for the equivalent topic for other countries. I propose we should be consistent with that, and on the off chance that you need to resolve a tie, count the hours and minutes. EditorInTheRye (talk) 10:36, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

List of presidents of the United States by time in office does not use duration=on.--203.218.141.176 (talk) 10:54, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

That is because the time of noon for the start and end of a presidency is now enshrined in the constitution so it is always exactly half a day for the first and last days as opposed to say the prime minister when it is arbitrary, I would change for any president who left office before the end of term to count the first and last day as 2 days.69.116.75.22 (talk) 21:42, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Churchill photo

I'm finding it difficult to understand why the Churchill photo is being used - he's not the second-longest serving modern PM (that's Tony Blair) and he's not, e.g., the longest-serving PM over discontinuous terms. There's nothing really illustrative about the length of his tenure. Quickenedeasy (talk) 16:55, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

@Quickenedeasy: I have reverted attempts in the past to fix this because they also attempted to remove the Gladstone picture at the same time. I agree that the Churchill photo should be removed for not being notable. The other four are notable for length or, in the case of Gladstone, number of separate terms in office. Bazza (talk) 09:51, 3 February 2023 (UTC)