Talk:List of historic titles of British monarchs

This article was nominated for deletion on 7 July 2020. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved.

Discussions:

Withdrawn, 13 July 2020, from List of titles and honours of the British Monarch to List of titles and honours of the British Crown, see discussion.
Moved, 19 July 2020, from List of titles and honours of the British Monarch to List of historic titles of British monarchs, see discussion.

Image copyright problem with File:Chester Arms.gif[edit]

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major errors[edit]

this article is full of major errors. It seems to be a rip off of the List of titles and honours of the Spanish Crown. it seems like a bad copy and paste job. the UK and Spain have a very different history. Spain was formed from many different kingdoms being inherited/conquered, then merged. Therefore, the King of Spain has titles for kingdoms and realms that now form one single Kingdom. the UK and the British Crown created most of its titles. Most of these titles have not been used in pretense, yet are historical. therefore the phrase "Titles in Pretence marked with * are historical titles which are only nominal and ceremonial." is not accurate. Every title Queen Elizabeth represents a realm she reigns over. Sure, she may not reign over all of Normandy, but she does over the Channel Islands. Also, some of the arms are wrong. 71.194.44.209 (talk) 08:23, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, the article lists titles previously held by the English monarchs. The monarchs of the United Kingdom never held them. DrKay (talk) 20:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

File:EscudoMalawi.PNG Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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Heir Apparent Titles[edit]

There is some opposition to including the titles of the heir apparent in this article. I cannot see any reason not to, as they aren't really substantial enough to form their own article but are closely related to the subject of this one. This approach has been taken by related articles, such as those covering Sweden, Spain, and Portugal. A.D.Hope (talk) 11:40, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's already an article about them, which is linked from here. DrKay (talk) 12:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't. There's an article about the Prince of Wales, but that isn't the same thing.A.D.Hope (talk) 12:19, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the link which you deliberately removed. DrKay (talk) 12:22, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fine by me - I don't think there's a particular need for it, but there's no harm it being there. I'm also not trying to have a fight, the article is in a pretty messy state and still needs a lot of improvement. I'd like to work with you on that. Now, why do you think the heir apparent's titles shouldn't be included? I know the article title is strictly about the monarch's titles, but this seems like the most natural place to include the heir apparent's.A.D.Hope (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If I wanted to know about the titles of the prince of Wales, I would look at an article about the prince of Wales. The titles of the prince of Wales should be discussed at an article about the prince of Wales. That's the most natural place to include them. DrKay (talk) 12:41, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. The information is relevant to both articles as they stand and can be included in both. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:53, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming and Repurposing the Article[edit]

I don't think this article is fit for purpose, as it lacks a clear reason to exist. I've tried to edit it into better shape in the past (not very well, it must be said), and recent edits by DrKay, while a definite improvement, have reinforced my opinion that this article is disjointed because its purpose is unclear. It overlaps with several other articles related to the British monarchy while not adding much of substance itself.

Nevertheless, I do think that the article contains the seeds of a useful article. I propose renaming it List of the titles held by British sovereigns (or similar), and making it a list of the titles held by individual English, Scottish, and British monarchs, in the vein of the Style of the British Sovereign article. It could look something like this:

English sovereigns[edit]

Monarch	Titles	Reign
William the Conqueror	Duke of Normandy	1035–1087
William the Conqueror	King of England	1066–1087
William II of England	King of England	1087-1100
Henry I of England	Duke of Normandy	1100-1135
Henry I of England	King of England	1106-1135
Stephen	Count of Boulogne	1125-1147
	Duke of Normandy	1134-1144
	King of England	1135-1154

This would provide an easily-accessible list of the titles each monarch held, rather than the ones they used in their style, and would therefore give the article a definite purpose. The sections on titles currently held by the monarch could be removed, as this is covered better in List of titles and honours of Elizabeth II.

The main issue I see is deciding whether or not to include titles such as 'Defender of the Faith'. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, I think List of historic titles held by British monarchs would convey the purpose of the article more accurately, though I'm happy to discuss this. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 July 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn in favor of new suggested title. DrKay (talk) 08:27, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of titles and honours of the British Monarch → List of titles and honours of the British Crown – Consistent with List of titles and honours of the Swedish Crown, List of titles and honours of the Spanish Crown, and List of titles and honours of the Portuguese Crown. DrKay (talk) 07:22, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. As outlined in my proposal above, I favour renaming the page something like List of historic titles of British monarchs. I do not think the current article has a clear purpose separate from articles such as Style of the British sovereign or List of titles and honours of Elizabeth II, and this proposed move will not help. A.D.Hope (talk) 08:10, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 13 July 2020 (2)[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. Both the nominator and the participant seem to agree that the move is acceptable. (non-admin closure) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 07:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of titles and honours of the British Monarch → List of historic titles of British monarchs – Article does not list the honours of British monarchs and so that part of the article title is superfluous. The suggested title more accurately reflects the intended scope of the article. Per Wikipedia:Article titles, article titles should be written in sentence case (cf. List of British monarchs, Style of the British sovereign). DrKay (talk) 07:22, 13 July 2020 (UTC) Amended 21:10, 19 July 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:40, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree for the same reason as given in the original discussion. A.D.Hope (talk) 08:52, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You explicitly said above at 13:47, 12 July 2020, "I propose renaming it List of the titles held by British sovereigns" [1]. DrKay (talk) 09:09, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I propose renaming the article List of historic titles of British monarchs., or similar, as part of a wider re-tooling of the article into a list of the titles held by individual English, Scottish, and British monarchs. I believe this will give the article a solid purpose and therefore make it easier to bring it up to a good standard. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:29, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, I honestly thought I'd settled on List of historic titles of British monarchs for my proposal. On reflection I don't think List of the titles held by British sovereigns is a particularly good title. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I presume then that you will exclude all the current titles of Elizabeth II, since they are active and not historic? DrKay (talk) 20:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's the plan. List of titles and honours of Elizabeth II covers her titles and honours, and I don't see any reason to duplicate the information when it can simply be linked to. She also has a lot of titles, so in a way it's a relief not to have to include them. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:06, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closer: note that the editor above said explicitly "I favour renaming the page something like List of historic titles of British monarchs"[2] and "I propose renaming the article List of historic titles of British monarchs"[3] and "I think List of historic titles held by British monarchs would convey the purpose of the article more accurately"[4]. DrKay (talk) 14:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.