Talk:List of American Championship Car winners

All-time IndyCar/Champ Car/Championship Car winners table

I've spent the past several days establishing this sortable table for all-time wins (1905-2008) for AAA/USAC/CART/Champ Car/IRL wins. There are a few issues of need:

• It is at a the sandbox here User:Doctorindy/Sandbox
• What should be the page title?
  • American open wheel championship race winners
  • Similar variation?
• Some drivers who have won a race in AOWR (in most cases from AAA years), do not have a Wiki-link page, and won't fit well into the alphabetical sort command...is there a way around that without forcing them to be a red link?
• Overall proofreading of wins/names/country flags
• Decisions on how to include (or not include) the handfull of recognized NASCAR open wheel races...(include in AAA column? seperate list on the bottom?)
• Decision on how to include (or not include) non championship races such as the Race of Two Worlds and Marlboro Challenge all star race, etc.
• In the table, Indy 500 wins from 1979-1995 were pulled out of the CART column and placed in the USAC column, where they should be. In many lists, drivers are erroneously credited with an extra win due to the Indy 500 being counted twice (once under CART wins, once under USAC wins)

Doctorindy (talk) 16:34, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

"List of American Championship Car winners" Briefly explain in the lead what sanctioning bodies and series are included in the list. I think it's desirable to see red links for drivers without articles because it gives us a priority list of drivers who should get articles. Include NASCAR as a separate table on the bottom. What was the name of that series, because I'd like to start an article? Any references for that series? A separate table for non-championship races and possibly exhibitions. Good call about including the 1979-1995 Indy 500 winners in the USAC column because that's correct. Good idea for an important article! Royalbroil 19:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I got the idea not too long ago because they said that the IRL had acquired all of the "historical info" for all of the previous series, but at the same time, all year they've only been giving stats for # or IRL wins. There needed to be some sort of collection of all the winners. Doctorindy (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Regrding the NASCAR open wheel races, I've read almost nothing about it. There has to be info about it somewhere, and a page would be very good too. [[User:Doctorindy|DoctorinMarkdill (talk) 13:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)dy]] (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Forcing red links is fine in my opinion as it tells people what articles have to be created and when it is created, it's already linked to. I don't like what for example WP:SCR does and not link to every driver in their Le Mans results. When you create a new page for a driver, that then means that you have to go into every race they competed in, fish their name out, and put a link in. Even with AWB that's pretty tedious. -Drdisque (talk) 03:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I('m going to go ahead and move the chart into the page List of American Championship Car winners. There is still some linking to be done, and some country flags that need to be added, but the page itself is entirely usuable. A little help here by anyone can quickly take care of the final handfull of links. Doctorindy (talk) 17:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• Regarding the NASCAR open wheel series...there apparently already is an article....NASCAR Speedway Division. it was short-lived, and could use some expansion. Doctorindy (talk) 15:27, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Additional columns

I'm considering adding additional columns...especially one for "Active/Retired/Deceased" Doctorindy (talk) 16:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's an example of the top...

Driver	Status	AAA (1902-1954)	USAC (1955-1995)	CART (1979-2003)	Champ Car World Series (2004-2007)	IRL (1996-present)	Combined Total
A. J. Foyt	Retired	0	67	0	0	0	67
Mario Andretti	Retired	0	33	19	0	0	52
Michael Andretti	Retired	0	0	42	0	0	42
Al Unser Sr.	Retired	0	36	3	0	0	39
Bobby Unser	Retired	0	25	10	0	0	35
Al Unser Jr.	Retired	0	2	29	0	3	34
Paul Tracy	Active	0	0	26	5	0	31
Sébastien Bourdais	Active	0	0	3	28	0	31
Rick Mears	Retired	0	7	22	0	0	29
Johnny Rutherford	Retired	0	18	9	0	0	27
Rodger Ward	Deceased	2	24	0	0	0	26
Gordon Johncock	Retired	0	21	4	0	0	25
Ralph DePalma	Deceased	25	0	0	0	0	25
Bobby Rahal	Retired	0	1	23	0	0	24
Ted Horn	Deceased	24	0	0	0	0	24
Emerson Fittipaldi	Retired	0	2	20	0	0	22
Tony Bettenhausen	Deceased	19	3	0	0	0	22

Doctorindy (talk) 16:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC) To simplify the work, it could just be labled as "Active" and the rest a blank cel. Doctorindy (talk) 16:55, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

CART points for the 500

Was in 1982, or 1983 that they began awarding them? I was under the impression that in 1981 and 1982, the 500 was effectively an independent race, sanctioned by USAC and attended by all CART teams, but not in any championship involving more than just the 500 alone. --Chr.K. (talk) 23:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

It was 1983 when CART started awarding points actively to their title. In the years afterwards, CART started recognizing Indy 500 wins from 1979-1982 as "CART wins." Probably not much more than in passing, as they wee trying to establish a record book, but years later it doubles up the race. Which causes some confusion if not looked at closely. It effectively gave Mears, Rutherford, B Unser, and Johncock what appeared to be one extra career victory. So in the table my intent was to single it out as one victory, under the right heading. The sentence is misleading, so I can re-word it better. Thankfully, there is a much better, correct, full explanation over at the American Championship Car Racing page. Doctorindy (talk) 17:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Totals at the bottom

Though there may be some descrepency with the total number of races (further research/confirmation may be necessary), the totals at the bottom, as of the END of the 2008 season were:

• 594, 10, 381, 385, 55, 169...with grand total of 1594
• The only columns that should change from here on out is the IRL column, and the grand total column.

National Championships and Race Wins

I think all would agree, that it is imperative that we include only the REAL national champions in this table, and never again include the Haresnape & Means and Russ Catlin "fantasy champs." Given all that is going on in the statistician/historian world right now, and how much is coming back to light, and what's becoming clear for the first time in two generations, I think it's very important that this table be true to FACT. The research efforts of Capps, et. al., is published, and reliable. It should be followed.

The same goes for race wins. Eventually, I'd like to re-vamp this table to include the REAL wins from the early years, not "NC" races...that would mean only race victories from 1905, 1916, and 1920-2013 (and re-include the "Big Car" wins from 1946...which should be there to begin with). That way we have the first firm, accurate and statistically acceptable list of National Championship wins perhaps for the first time ever. Doctorindy (talk) 14:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• For those new to the project, or those just not familiar with the circumstances, a few good reads are:
  • http://8w.forix.com/rvm-vol10-no1.html
  • http://speedreaders.info/11392-izod-indycar-series-2013-historical-record-book

Wholeheartedly agree with removing the Catlin and Gold Crown championships. I would also support taking the Gold Crown champions out of American Championship car racing#National champions. On wins, I could see an argument for keeping the non-championship races and also including the modern non-championship races (Marlboro Challenge, PPIC, et. al.) in an attempt to create a list of all "champ car" winners. I don't feel strongly about that either way, but if we went the all-inclusive route, we would have to be open to an incomplete list, as a lot of the early results aren't available. Spyder_Monkey (Talk) 13:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

At one time, I thought it would be good to include the other "NC" wins from the early years in the table to compile a "complete" list, but I've recently been convinced otherwise. The race results from 1902-04,06-15,17-19 are seen published here and there, but no list is complete. And only being able to include "some" would defeat the purpose of doing a "complete" list! It would be nice to have a separate list below perhaps to cover NC/Exhibition races, so at least some credit where credit is due. As for the Gold Crown, I'm still trying to figure out how we handle that.Doctorindy (talk) 17:37, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I am pleased to see this work and endorse at the very least making the distinction between FACT and the revisionist history cooked up by Catlin and others. I am particularly pleased to see the page on the 1905 championship. While this development may be a dead end it was important in that it introduced the idea of a AAA points national championship and the forerunner to the 1916 championship. I want to point out that I have a number of newspaper articles readily available on my Web site at http://firstsuperspeedway.com/articles/category/51.User:Markdill9:53, 26 July 2013

Doesn't IndyCar release a yearbook with the official statistics? --NaBUru38 (talk) 01:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

We've been trying to figure that out for a while, but it seems they've tried (but to probably no fault of their own), the people who are putting it together are/were not completely aware of the mess they were getting into. Haresnape & Means and Russ Catlin butchered the record books along the way, and it's taken decades for their misdeeds to be fully recognized and even slower to get them corrected in the official record. As Don Capps has pointed out in his writings, there appear to be powers that be that vehemently refuse to acknowledge the H&M and Catlin "crimes to the history books," and have been very resistant to fixing them. It's been up to independent researchers to start getting it right.  Doctorindy (Talk) 18:04, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

It would probably take years and years of research to cover everything, and it wouldn't surprise me if no such book exists still in 2020 or 7 years after the previous comment was made, but it seems to me as I have browsed more sports than motorsport when it comes to statistic such as wins and championships they seem to be very hard to properly quantify motorsport unlike in football, baseball, basketball, Ice Hockey, soccer, etc as the championships in those sport have existed for almost as long as they have existed (maybe few exceptions) but in motorsport, they came and went like in America or in Formula One Didn't exist until 1950. This list has what five championship series and in many some years have at least 2. So it's very puzzling to know who is the actual best driver in America in that particular year so its hard to tell. When it comes to individual races I don't think this is much better as usually the only races that were part of the championship easiest one to account for the count for this goes both for the 5 American open-wheel series as well as Formula One but non-championship races are a pain in the ass, why lack of valid data on them I would think is the main cause I have seen various Formula One websites include these non-championship races but them data being incomplete thus this website missing different races so one listing race A but not race B and versa, wouldn't surprise me if this was the exact same problem with the 5 American Open-wheel racing series. Another irregularity regarding the history of open-wheel racing in the Indy 500 which also counted towards the FIA Driver World championship in 1950-1960 despite the regular Formula One Drivers not showing up at all in Indy 500 in those years with few exceptions. IF you ask me those races should not count in any Formula One championships or statistic. I personally think FIA should make move and formally remove those Indy 500 what their presence does is to skew formula One statistic I personally don't count them because of this and I think that should be the official stance now. Similarly, could you imagine all the problems the Grand Prix of Monaco would cause in already problematic statistic collecting for the five American open-wheel series if it counted towards CART or Indy car tile despite no of the Indy car drivers showing up for Monaco Grand Prix? DoctorHver (talk) 05:12, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Substantial re-write

I have completed the 'first phase' of a substantial re-write of the wins table. It now lists only CHAMPIONSHIP wins from officials sanctioned championship seasons (1905, 1916, 1920-2008). I removed the non-championship (NC) wins from the table, the vast majority being AAA wins from the early years...and moved them down to a list of NC wins. The NC list is considered "abridged" as it will take time to research and populate a complete list of NC wins. The table also correctly re-inserts the 71 "Big Car" races from 1946 that were REAL championship races. The so-called merged history book IndyCar published still carelessly omits them.  Doctorindy (Talk) 17:51, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by the order of the list in the National Championship Chart

Is there a reason these are not grouped, from top to bottom, by the combined total of championships? Foyt at the top, with 7 titles, makes sense. But why is Rick Mears, with 3, listed next, ahead of a driver who has won 4? Or Fittipaldi, with 1 title, ahead of a dozen drivers with multiple title. The order of those who have won 4, 3, 2, and 1 would be better served being all grouped together in that order, making for easier reading/reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShelbyMarion (talk • contribs) 18:16, 6 October 2016 (UTC) DoctorHver (talk) 05:11, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Wins, Podiums, Top Fives, and Poles Chart (Removal)

An unregistered user created a table with Wins, Podiums, Top Fives, and Poles Chart back on May 25. I am deleting this table for the following reasons:

• It is clearly a copy/paste from champcarstats.com (copy/paste works are against WP policy)
• The article is about "Wins" not poles, Top 5, podiums, etc.
• The wins shown in the table repeat information already shown on the main "wins" table.
• The list does not reflect the updates made to the wins table, which deleted the "NC" wins as mentioned in detail above.

Doctorindy↔Talk 01:27, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

... no, it wasn't a copy and paste! You don't have to make up excuses. If you don't want anyone updating "your personal Indycar page," just say so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.9.54.85 (talk) 21:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

... so, because you saw somebody come along and step on your turf, you knee-jerked, rolling the whole page, all the way back, to Alabama? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.9.54.85 (talk) 21:54, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

• I reverted it back because you made a mess, and it was impossible to see where in the 39(!) edit spree started the mess. You changed some section headings to ones that are utterly bizarre (who says "summation" or "Hegemony"?), you removed content without explanation, and you created some sections which seem to be totally and utterly pointless - and certainly violate WP:NOTSTATS. Not sure where your frankly bizarre ranting about stepping on people's turf, or copy/pasting, is coming from... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:09, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Missing tracks...

Off the top of my head, missing from Permanent Road Courses:

Continental Divide Raceway, Indianapolis Raceway Park, Seattle International Raceway (Kent)

Paved Ovals: Hanford Langhorne

COPhotog (talk) 20:07, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I only considered racetracks back to 1971 (split between Champ Cars and Sprint Cars). Racetracks up to the season 1970 are not included in the overview. The overview may be extended. --Mark McWire (talk) 22:12, 8 April 2019 (UTC)