Talk:LGBT rights in Chechnya

This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles

Russia: Politics and law Low‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the politics and law of Russia task force.

Article References[edit]

The article only uses one source, and I removed it. More sources are needed, and should be available, hence my addition of the "tags" on the article. The current source used was a blog, and it's content very questionable. It could at the least be described as extremely politically orientated and devoid of facts, and perhaps even as a hate site. Reasonable sources should be available with a simple "google" search, as Chechnya has been a war zone for 15 years, and all parties involved have exhibited homophobic behavior over the course of the war. The Scythian 17:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, first, could we get to sourcing that last statement? Because, as hard as I've searched, I haven't found anything where the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria even mentioned homosexuality, good or bad. It's well known that Kadyrov/Alkhanov institute Sharia, and the Caucasus Emirate intends to as well. As the "blog" says, this:

GROZNY, Russia – The bullnecked president of Chechnya emerged from afternoon prayers at the mosque and with chilling composure explained why seven young women who had been shot in the head deserved to die.

Ramzan Kadyrov said the women, whose bodies were found dumped by the roadside, had “loose morals” and were rightfully shot by male relatives in honor killings.

“If a woman runs around and if a man runs around with her, both of them are killed,” Kadyrov told journalists in the capital of this Russian republic.

[snip]

Some in Russia say Kadyrov’s attempt to create an Islamic society violates the Russian constitution, which guarantees equal rights for women and a separation of church and state. But the Kremlin has given him its staunch backing, seeing him as the key to keeping the separatists in check, and that has allowed him to impose his will.

[snip]

Kadyrov describes women as the property of their husbands and says their main role is to bear children. He encourages men to take more than one wife, even though polygamy is illegal in Russia. Women and girls are now required to wear headscarves in all schools, universities and government offices.

[snip]

Rights activists fear that Kadyrov’s approval of honor killings may encourage men to carry them out. Honor killings are considered part of Chechen tradition. No records are kept, but human rights activists estimate dozens of women are killed every year.

...Is "snipped" from the news... now, if we can find it (it's probably Russian...) --Yalens (talk) 02:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Soooo...Where is the link to the source? Did you write this one yourself? The Scythian 23:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't searched yet. And please, I believe the rules are to assume good faith... obviously, I didn't right it myself. Did you even look at the page? --Yalens (talk) 01:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Searching for 1 minute, I've found a ton of sites, mostly with anti-sharia motives, mentioning similar things. No doubt though, these are biased sources, you'd say?--Yalens (talk) 01:44, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't assume I'd saying anything. You posted a link to blog that was basically a "hate site", and a non-biased third party agreed. Post sources within the guidelines of Wikipedia's policy, and there is no issue. For instance, I accepted your new link, because it was actually a "book". Links to accepted sources, that's the key here. Links to websites that hate "Arabs" or "Middle Easterners", and are pathologically "Muslim Hating" in nature just don't serve a point. So far, this article now has one source. I have assumed "good faith" that what you posted is actually in the book. The article as a whole is still lacking. I personally think it should be merged into the "Human Rights" section of the article on Chechnya, as it does not seem to warrant an article of its own. There is not even an article on basic human rights violations, let alone there is now one as narrow as this? If anything, a new article on Human Rights abuses in Chechnya should be created, with this as part of it. The Scythian 02:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found it (I stopped searching Russian, and it was right there for English).

http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?story_id=28409&action_id=2.

I will readd the deleted statements, with some revision now. The St. Petersburg Times is CLEARLY not a blog.

And I also don't appreciate your insulting statements about me "writing it myself".--Yalens (talk) 02:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then post a link to it's source, or at least show where the article originated. Otherwise, it might as well be original research. Also, you are the one who initially used a hate site as a source, not me. Why not use Stormfront's opinion on the subject, while you're at it? The Scythian 02:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There, now the second source you used is perfect. A news article from a well known publication. That is what is needed. The Scythian 02:21, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I admit, I forgot to do much investigation of that first source. Though, I am confused as to how we can suddenly assume it is a hate source, just as how you assumed the homophobia of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria without source. In any case, that is in the past and I apologize if it was. Though, you may have done more investigation into the page... (and I'm also not sure where you got this idea that the site was anything anti-Chechen or anti-Muslim; if its anti-anything, it looks anti-Russian, though as someone with a degree of Chechen heritage myself, its not difficult to see the logic behind anti-Russian politics when it comes to the Caucasus).

With regards to the merge you suggested, I don't think I'd be comfortable with merging it yet. Unfortunately, due the generally concealed nature of things about Chechnya, it will now be difficult to find sources. I will, if you prefer, add links wherever possible. For example, while the concept is well familiar to myself, the nature of Chechen ethnos centering around personal freedom, equality and hospitality as an ideal is also discussed in many books, of which I've read Chechnya: From Past to Future and Chechnya: the Case for Independence. If you'd like me to add citation for those where discussed, I will. Furthermore, with the Past to Future one, there used to be a link for that as a preview by amazon on the main page for Chechnya, though it seems to not be there anymore. I will try to dig it up. Though, I could make a million-plus list of articles I've read that have included books as citation without giving links...--Yalens (talk) 06:16, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request (Disagreement about the validity of the only reference source used in the article):

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on LGBT rights in Chechnya and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

The ironicsurrealism site is a blog and consequently fails WP:SPS and cannot be considered a reliable source for this article. In this particular case, the website/blog should be considered a questionable source making unsupported claims in an inflammatory manner and should not be replaced.—Ash (talk) 18:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking the time to look into this matter. The Scythian 23:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LGBT rights during de-facto independent era[edit]

The article contained this paragraph:

In 1991, when Dzhokhar Dudayev declared Chechnya to be independent, Russian law was discarded, and a secular government was established, making homosexuality de facto legal. This law was kept under Aslan Maskhadov. This upset radical Islamic factions within the country, whom believed sharia law should be implemented. Clashes between the radical islamists and the Ichkerian government led to the formation of the Caucasus Emirate which officially has sharia as a part of its law code.

However, I can't find any references one way or another which support anything here. Can someone reliably source the claim that homosexuality became legal in 1991 in Chechnya? Smurrayinchester 09:22, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Seems false anyway, since Chechnya reinstated the death penalty for it in 1996. Smurrayinchester 14:06, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Which also has no sources to back it up, so I removed it. If anyone can find sources for any of this, please feel free to reinstate. Nosferattus (talk) 17:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I found some information in the book Chechnya: From Past to Future and added it to the article. There is also information in https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur04/009/1997/en/ about Acticle 148 which was apparently enacted as official law and then annulled during Chechnya's period of de facto independence. Nosferattus (talk) 19:42, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Potential WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE issues in "cultural aspects" section[edit]

Hello, Yalens! Thanks for providing an article source for the sentence in regards to the religion of most people in Chechnya. However, I'm still not sure if this sentence should stay as is. I understand that some religions can take a homophobic stance on LGBT rights, but there doesn't seem to be as much emphasis on religion in the main article of LGBT rights in Russia. If you look at that article, it only states "Russia has been viewed as being socially conservative regarding homosexuality" with no mention of Christianity, which can also take a negative view on LGBT rights. How should we resolve this potential double standard? In my opinion, I would leave the religion out of both articles since people of all religions can have positions that are negative or positive about LGBT rights. Kamalthebest (talk) 06:22, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Orthodox church or Orthodox Christian faith is mentioned 3 times in the Russia article (all three linking it to either "fanatics" or homophobia), Islam or "Muslim" appears 5 times in this one, which is not a significant difference in articles with thousands of woreds. In my opinion the role of Christianity in (the lack of) LGBT rights in Russia could be expanded upon. However, even though the comparison was mine originally it's also worth noting that it's an asymmetrical comparison so it can't be a double standard -- only about half of Russians are actually observant, and while there are numerous Chechens who at least before Kadyrov took a secular stance, basically all Muslim-background Chechens (i.e. everyone except the few Christians in the republic-- i.e. a couple Chechens and a handful of Slavs) are currently forced to be observant by the government, and to observe the specific way the government wants them to. In both cases religion is used as a weapon against LGBT people and other minorities too, but the role of religion is more significant in Chechnya. If we were talking about Azerbaijan, which is traditionally Muslim but very secular, it would be the opposite-- religion (Christianity) plays a larger role in Russia than (Islam) in Azerbaijan, where you still also have a good number of homophobes who go on about things being "against nature". But we're talking about Chechnya, where regardless of the fact that if Chechens weren't Muslim there'd still be homophobia, religion plays a prominent role in society and is used by a totalitarian government to buttress its rule and as a weapon to justify assaults on LGBT minorities. That is not undue. Look I'm not an Islamophobe, in fact I've been on the other side of the argument here on Wiki more times than not, but it's just a bit ridiculous to not mention it when it plays a pretty huge role for Kadyrov's regime as a whole (including this issue). --Yalens (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also it should be mentioned-- it's definitely not SYN as the connection is drawn numerous times by the sources on the page.--Yalens (talk) 06:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Scratch all that above, I changed my position, it doesn't need to be the first thing people learn about the place, I deleted it. If there's any other issues let me know?--Yalens (talk) 07:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Chechen Mothers"[edit]

The image at the top currently is a bit confusing-- it's described as "Chechen mothers mourning their (LGBT?) children" but as for my understanding, it's actually an enactment of that by activists who may or may not be Chechen (as for physical appearance a few of them could very easily be but that doesn't prove anything). It should probably be fixed. Also it's worth noting that the Chechen flag used is not the flag used by Kadyrov's government, but instead it's the Chechen nationalist flag that was previously used by separatists -- that's pretty significant. --Yalens (talk) 18:40, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dear colleague, First, thanks for being interested in this serious problem. Secondly, judging by your actions, you have very little idea of what Chechnya, Russia and LGBT people in these countries are. --Терпр (talk) 05:56, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I rarely appear in the English section of Wikipedia. And after the publication in this Wikipedia unbelievable false stories about "gay concentration camps" ... I can advise reading authoritative sources, not the yellow press. --Терпр (talk) 06:00, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PA :( Come on, you must know that flag (a non-Kadyrov flag) is used by nationalists (i.e. his opponents) but if what you said earlier to me is true, fair enough I guess... your version [[1]] had the caption saying "Chechen mothers mourn their children". I this actually true and citable, or was it an enactment?--Yalens (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

2018 update[edit]

Reports of the persecution continuing in 2018 are available, the article needs updating to reflect this.

--Fæ (talk) 12:00, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Section on persecution from 2017[edit]

The section on the purges from 2017 onward began with the following paragraph:

In March 2017, the Moscow-based gay rights group GayRussia.ru requested permission to hold gay-pride rallies in four cities in the North Caucasus region. The group did not apply to hold a rally in Chechnya, but did apply to hold a rally in neighboring Kabardino-Balkaria. Although the group's application was denied, the request touched off a wave of anti-gay persecution in the region.

This was directly contradicted by the main article on the LGBT purges in Chechnya and also does not fit the established timeline of events for the Chechen gay purge of 2017. It is also predicated on the unchallenged and deeply homophobic suggestion that LGBT people can be in some way agents of their own oppression by drawing attention to themselves.

I have replaced the opening of this section with the relevant paragraphs from the main article. This both respects the established timeline of events and improves the quality of detail given in the article. 81.109.86.114 (talk) 00:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]