Talk:Jeugkrag

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Notability[edit]

I don't think this topic warrants a separate article (see Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)). It should be a sub topic of either the Marthinus van Schalkwyk or Civil Cooperation Bureau pages, with Van Schalkwyk's page getting my vote. --Deon Steyn 06:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Paradox vs irony[edit]

Since MvS's career choice is not a statement (i.e. utterance or written communication) but an about-turn action that can be considered incongruous/strange/odd I have reverted to the word ironically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suidafrikaan (talk • contribs)

Libel[edit]

The following comment was posted on my User page ([1]), ostensibly by Cedric de Coning. In it he raises concerns regarding libel (Wikipedia:Libel) statements insinuating he himself was working for or paid by National Intelligence.

I can see that you are someone who has contributed to Wikipedia over a long period. I would appreciate your advice. It would appear as if 'Suidafrikaan' posted an item on Jeugkrag on wikipedia, in which he links me with the fact that Marthinus van Schalkwyk has accepted money for himself and for Jeugkrag from Military Intelligence (MI). I found out, like the rest of the public, that Marthinus accepted funds from MI, and I wrote to him at the time expressing my utter disgust at his betrayal, because he has brought the organization, and all associated with it - as this wikipedia post proves - in disrepute.

It is unfair, however, to assume, as you he has done in this post, that others associated with Jeugkrag at the time, had knowledge of, or were somehow associated with MI. I was one of the founding members of Jeugkrag and our aim was to establish an alternative movement (as oposed to the Afrikaans Student Union - ASB) for Afrikaans students that was oposed to apartheid and that actively work for creating an alternative democratic future. I contributed to drafting our founding principles and it was revolutionary at the time in that we rejected apartheid and promoted a true (one man one vote) democratic future. I was a member of the Student Representative Counci at Rand Afrikaans University at the time and my personal left of centre politics was well known. I was the first Publicity Secretary and later the Director of Fundraising of Jeugkrag. During that time I raised funds from several corperate and private foundations. Amongst others we did things like arrange school and student camps where we brought youths from all races together to start a national dialogue about our future together. I had no knowledge of any links to the South African Government, especially not MI, and there was nothing in the policies or work of Jeugkrag that I had knowledge of, even with hindsight, that could have served the interests of the apartheid government.

I moved on from student politics (and Jeugkrag) and joined the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) in Aug 1988, and in 1989 and half of 1990 I did my compulsory national service. I spent the first year at the intelligence school in Potch, where I did an officer's course and qualified as a 2nd lieutenant. As I am sure you are aware we did not choose where we went for our national service. In 1990 I spent a further six months at MI, before I returned to DFA in July 1990. In early 1990, I was promoted to 1st lieutenant, as was the practise for all graduates. My national service, like I am sure for most of us, were the most uneventful and unproductive time of my life. This is especially true for my time at MI where I mostly spent my time playing chess. Contraty to his insuniation, I think my politics saved me from becoming involved in anything sinister. There was no link between my involvement with Jeugkrag and my national service.

I regret, but accept that because Marthinus accepted funds from MI for himself and for Jeugkrag, that the whole organisation and what it has achieved, is now discredited. However, there were many ordinary people involved in Jeugkrag who genuinly used it as a vehicle to mobilize against apartheid within the Afrikaner community, and I believed Jeugkrag played a role by sending a message to the Afrikaner elite that a significant portion of the Afrikaner student leadership rejected apartheid and chose a democratic future. If MI funds were used in this process then I, for one, enjoy the irony that they contributed funds to an organization that contributed to their own downfall.

I would like to find out from you how one can protect yourself from someone posting such insinuations about yourself on wikipedia. I would appreciate it if he would remove any suggestions that I knew about MI funding for Jeugkrag, or that such funding is somehow linked to my national service. If that is not possible I would appreciate it if my version could be posted alongside his.

Best wishes
Cedric de Coning

Perhaps we need a note explaining that Van Schalkwyk is the only person verified as being paid by the SADF? --Deon Steyn 08:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLP is very strict on removing potentially libellous statements about living people from Wikipedia articles. If it's not verifiable, any damaging statement should be removed. Zaian 09:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think something has to be done in this case (I have added a note that tries to add balance), but I'm note sure exactly how this innuendo or impliction should be dealt with? --Deon Steyn 09:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed a sentence or two. Zaian 10:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please see my response [2] to the same note. The paragraph to which the complainant objects reproduces facts from Mr De Coning's CV. Suidafrikaan 10:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I believe he is objecting to the strong insinuation, created by the selection of facts and the phraseology, that he was a covert MI mole inside Jeugkrag. If false, it's a potentially libellous insinuation, and WP:BLP is created specifically to avoid getting Wikipedia into this sort of dispute. Therefore, I removed the claim. Zaian 11:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to ad to this that a debate can be ongoing about the involvement of MI or other security organisations of that time, but the meaning of it should be made clear. As a Western Cape member I was approached by the Security Polices of a few occasions to attempt to obtain information on internal discussions. The more I refused the more I was bombarded with the available information and I was later made to believe that Jeugkrag is being used as an indicator of youth trends and thinking. Therefore the organisation itself is in my mind not discredited by "moles" or funding from MI (Judging that the information available was so vast that I could not gather what more they wanted). I gathered that it was in fact the willing ear of these organisations that kept it alive and the ideals of the members was never questioned but rather followed into the future. Perhaps Martinus is the only one that can explain what really happened and why money was accepted from MI. It was in fact happening during the time just before transformation and preceded the new thinking of the National Party. Perhaps if the people involved would just ad on here so this can be cleared up. I am sure a simplistic view of MI "infiltration" is not the case here. (User: pieterloftus) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pieterloftus (talk • contribs) 21:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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