Talk:Jamala/Archive 2
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| Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Material ancestors from "Karabakh
Who else thinks this should be removed as for this claim, it needs more third party sources, as this source does not look reliable and is not even in English, I know it is allowed however, for an important claim as this one it needs more sources/ especially in English. BM Tornado (talk) 15:56, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- Is this all you can do on Wikipedia, pov nit-picking like this? The Daily Mail source also says "Nagorno-Karabakh". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
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Addition of Armenian spelling
Hello all - I have added the Armenian spelling of Jamala's name, as she is half Armenian and identifies as such. It keeps getting removed for no apparent reason. I request for this action to stop. Thank you. TimeForTruth (talk) 10:46, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- There is no discussion of the addition being added and my addition keep getting deleted, even this entry on the talk page. If needed, I will report the page to an administrator.TimeForTruth (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- This was not really nice. Report it now wherever you want.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:06, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- I had no choice, as you had removed the discussion it its entirety. Now, please identify where the change has been discussed and rejected. I await the proof. TimeForTruth (talk) 16:09, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- I am sure you would be able to substantiate your accusation with diffs. After you fail to do that, I hope you will find guts to apologize.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:10, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- I have nothing to apologize for. The conversation was completely deleted, and this is not the first time this has happened. Also, I believe using a statement such as "have the guts" is against Wikipedia policy. TimeForTruth (talk) 16:12, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- I am sure you would be able to substantiate your accusation with diffs. After you fail to do that, I hope you will find guts to apologize.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:10, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- I had no choice, as you had removed the discussion it its entirety. Now, please identify where the change has been discussed and rejected. I await the proof. TimeForTruth (talk) 16:09, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- This was not really nice. Report it now wherever you want.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:06, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- There is no discussion of the addition being added and my addition keep getting deleted, even this entry on the talk page. If needed, I will report the page to an administrator.TimeForTruth (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
OK you two, calm it down before things get out of hand. To editor TimeForTruth: having content deleted does not call for admin intervention, and I doubt an admin would even bother getting involved. What they would do is block anyone who violates edit warring or the three revert rule. So a word of caution, as repeated reverting from your part could result in you being blocked. What should be happening here is following WP:BRD (bold, revert, discuss). TFT you was bold to add the details, someone disagreed and reverted the edit. What you should have done was open a discussion and find out why your edit was removed, and not engage in edit warring. Ymblanter (who is an administrator) has informed you that this issue has been discussed previously, which if you took some time to look at the archived discussion (links are in the talk header) then you would see the history of discussions. And as for this talk page deletion, that is unacceptable behaviour per WP:REFACTOR. You should never ever delete or alter other's comments - whatsoever! Now talk calmly about this matter, avoid mud-slinging, and work towards a compromised consensus. Wes Wolf Talk 16:20, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- For your information and assistance, I have taken the liberty to find the archived discussion Talk:Jamala/Archive 1#Armenian transliteration of name. Several policies were noted in that discussion, and it was agreed by WP:CONSENSUS, not to include the Armenian variant of her name. So that is the end of that discussion, I suppose. Wes Wolf Talk 16:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- Wes, I was unable to see the section when I arrived to the talk page, so I reverted to an old version to continue the discussion. As far as the discussion, I found the archives and there is no conclusion. There are various sources, including Jamala herself, which confirm her ancestry. Here is one: http://armedia.am/eng/news/30836/eurovision-song-contest-2016-3-armenians-from-3-countries.html TimeForTruth (talk) 16:27, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- Wes, according to your comment on the archive, it would only make sense if Jamala had Armenian roots to include the Armenian transliteration. I have posted one source, and here is another Ukrainian source (the nation she is from): http://bunews.com.ua/lifestyle/item/ukraines-crimean-tatar-singer-jamala-promises-to-embarrass-putin-and-bring-stalins-crimes-to-eurovision TimeForTruth (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Please can we keep the thread in chronological order of comments posted. It is helpful to others trying to follow the debate in time-stamp order. As I said previously, it was decided not to include the Armenian spelling, as it was proven that Jamala's mother is half-Armenia, not Jamala herself. Therefore Jamala would only be quarter-Armenian, which isn't string enough to include an extra variant of her name. A limit has to be applied, unfortunately, and there are policies set in place from what I gathered the last time this was discussed. Wes Wolf Talk 16:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- It was proven based off of documented evidence? I did not come across that. All I come across is that her mother was Christian Armenian and her father Muslim Tatar. Also, a half or quarter is irrelevant, unless there is a Wiki rule which I am unaware of (very possible). Cher's page has her last name written in Armenian, but all we know is that her father was Armenian-American. There seems to be an imbalance in the way rules are being applied, unless I am misunderstanding something. TimeForTruth (talk) 16:38, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- Well Wikipedia is a complex place to be, there are rules and policies out there that even I am still unaware of, and I've been here almost 6 years. A lot of the time WP:DUE and WP:UNDUE needs to be taken into account. Is a specific piece of context going to add any more encyclopaedic value if it were included or not? Is neutral point of view being considered? Are we following WP:BLP rules - which by the way are the most strict rules on Wikipedia. These are matters that you and I and everyone else needs to be checking first before deciding on whether or not a spelling variant is warranted or not. Failing that and if no comprise if likely to be reached by all parties, then I would recommend seeing Wikipedia:Third opinion assistance, where more expert editors with an experience on policies would look into this matter and advise on the best outcome. Wes Wolf Talk 16:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- Alright, then let's get a third opinion, as I have read through the archive and find no evidence of anyone proving Jamala's mother to only be half Armenian. This, of course, makes her half and being that I have already provided two links - one from Armenian news and one from Ukrainian news - I feel there is far more evidence to have it rather than not.
- Well Wikipedia is a complex place to be, there are rules and policies out there that even I am still unaware of, and I've been here almost 6 years. A lot of the time WP:DUE and WP:UNDUE needs to be taken into account. Is a specific piece of context going to add any more encyclopaedic value if it were included or not? Is neutral point of view being considered? Are we following WP:BLP rules - which by the way are the most strict rules on Wikipedia. These are matters that you and I and everyone else needs to be checking first before deciding on whether or not a spelling variant is warranted or not. Failing that and if no comprise if likely to be reached by all parties, then I would recommend seeing Wikipedia:Third opinion assistance, where more expert editors with an experience on policies would look into this matter and advise on the best outcome. Wes Wolf Talk 16:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- It was proven based off of documented evidence? I did not come across that. All I come across is that her mother was Christian Armenian and her father Muslim Tatar. Also, a half or quarter is irrelevant, unless there is a Wiki rule which I am unaware of (very possible). Cher's page has her last name written in Armenian, but all we know is that her father was Armenian-American. There seems to be an imbalance in the way rules are being applied, unless I am misunderstanding something. TimeForTruth (talk) 16:38, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Please can we keep the thread in chronological order of comments posted. It is helpful to others trying to follow the debate in time-stamp order. As I said previously, it was decided not to include the Armenian spelling, as it was proven that Jamala's mother is half-Armenia, not Jamala herself. Therefore Jamala would only be quarter-Armenian, which isn't string enough to include an extra variant of her name. A limit has to be applied, unfortunately, and there are policies set in place from what I gathered the last time this was discussed. Wes Wolf Talk 16:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
TimeForTruth (talk) 16:48, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- I reverted your addition of the spelling and I am prepared to block your account per WP:NOTTHERE if you continue.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Origin
First off, just a question. Why am I the one being told to "take it to the talk page" when the origin has stated Ukraine for a very long time until someone just tried to remove it. Secondly, why is there even a discussion on this. Per Template:Infobox musical artist: "The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth). If the place is not known, specify at least the country. Do not add a flag icon. Omit the country if it does not differ from that specified at the field "birth_place"." Ukraine is the exact answer to this prompt for Jamala. There is no reason why this shouldn't be included. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 17:30, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- My apologies, I indeed did not realize that I removed the field which indeed was in the article for a long time, and I should have started the discussion. Having said this, I do not see any sense in having Ukraine in this field. She is a Ukrainian citizen, and she lived in Ukraine since independence, which means this is a tautology. Adding there a city (whether this is Simferopol or Kiev) could make sense and give some useful information, but I do not think we have sources for this (we actually even do not have sources for Ukraine but presume it should be it).--Ymblanter (talk) 19:33, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- It is okay, but there really is no basis to remove Ukraine. Ukraine fits the exact definition of what origin is used for, since where she began her career is drastically different from where she was born. A casual reader may be confused as to what makes her Ukrainian and not have the time to read the entire "early life" section of the article. Putting Ukraine in origin gives a quick explanation that her career originated in Ukraine. Without putting Ukraine in origin, it makes it seem as if she's a Kyrgyz singer or something. If we find the city she grew up in that'd make things even better, but I don't think we have a source for that. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 19:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)