Talk:J. Ralph

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Untitled[edit]

Where does his music come from if he's not able to read or write it? What is his exact job in making music? --Ysangkok 21:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the third paragraph reads "Ralph composed", which doesn't make much sense to me if he doesn't read or write the music... Otus (talk) 19:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd argue that one can create/compose music without being trained in how to put the notes and time signatures on a page. Some people hum and describe where they want a particular instrument to come in to someone who can transcribe it into sheet music. Furthermore, one can compose music by fiddling with a tracker until the notes end up where they want them. Also, one can use a MIDI interface with a synth's keyboard and just fiddle about recording their keyboard inputs until it sounds correct, then they could have someone perform what the computer has transcribed into sheet music—then they could mix down all those separate performance tracks into a complete song using any number of mixing programs. --Maikeru Go (talk) 17:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed[edit]

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0707775/bio. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:56, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Dear Moonriddengirl,

I wrote this wikipedia page and the IMDB page about J. Ralph so there is no copyright issue. I authorize it to be used here on wikipedia. The whole bio is neutral and contains only facts. Since you have objected to the line "Considered by many to have had a profound impact ...", which was taken from a famous quote, It has been removed. The previous wikipedia page contains factual errors (eg. J. Ralph does not play the oboe) and is missing the bulk of his significant career developments (eg. oscar nominations, symphonic comissions, other projects, etc). Please do not block my account as I am the author of this text on wikipedia and IMDB and authorize it to be used here. Sincere thanks, Eldorado74 (talk) 03:09, 23 April 2013 (UTC) Eldorado74 (Charles Riggens)[reply]

I have removed this content again but will not block you as long as you do not restore it before permission is verified. In the notes you've been left before, you've been given a link to Wikipedia:Permissions which discusses the procedure for verifying license. See also WP:IOWN. I'm afraid we have to verify that you authored the content there - we don't have any means to prove who you are here here, as we do not require identification on account creation. Unfortunately, verifying license for content posted on IMDb is not always as easy as verifying license for content posted on your own website, since you cannot simply place the licensing statement there and since they do not publish your contact information.
You are very welcome to correct any misinformation in the article in the meantime, but it isn't necessary to use this content to do so. (I have, for instance, removed the reference to oboe playing which you claim is incorrect.) And, as I mentioned to you before, this content does not meet our neutrality criteria (although I do appreciate that you toned down such text as "Considered by many to have had a profound impact on the documentary medium, J. Ralph has helped elevate the experience of what it feels like to watch a documentary through his scores") or our verifiability policy, since IMDb is not a reliable source. Certainly it's perfectly appropriate content for the artist's own publications, but Wikipedia has a different purpose - we are here to succinctly summarize what reliable publications say about notable subjects. We cannot make claims like "amidst critical acclaim and MTV billing him the next big thing in pop music" without sources that verify critical acclaim and back up that MTV billed him in this way. We cannot quote the LA Times without a valid citation.
Verifying your connection to the IMDb profile may be tricky, as I say, given that they are an open-source project, but it isn't impossible - it might begin, for example, with demonstrating via email communication to the Wikimedia Foundation your connection with J. Ralph. But it is only the first step, as all the content will need references to reliable sources.
If you are connected with J. Ralph, as you seem to be, you may find it challenging to bring that content in line with policies - this is one of the reasons why we recommend that people with a conflict of interest not edit articles that relate personally to them. It is challenging to exclude material that you know, but can't prove, but our policies require that you do just that. As an open-source project, we allow anyone to edit, but at the cost that no one is presumed to be an "expert." There do seem to be reliable sources out there that can be used to build an article on Wikipedia that meets our requirements: [1]. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 10:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Corrections[edit]

@Moonriddengirl: @Eldorado74: A quick explination of the changes made in December 2015:

  • Image taken out - not uploaded properly and possible copyvio.
  • Associated acts need to have a consistent, long-term association with the artist. Like for instance Robert Plant and Allison Kraus who recorded and perfomred together.
  • As noted above nationality is not included with year of birth.
  • Awards are generally mentioned towards the end of the lede, as they are considered to be as a consequence of their career, which is summerized in the paragraph above (see for instance the Eric Clapton article).
  • The line 'who focuses on creating awareness and change through music and film' is both vague and unencyclopedic.
  • What awards did the Rumour Mill as a company win? That is unclear. It also has an air of the promotional.
  • The structure of the article is not clear. This is about an individual and it needs to highlight what he is notable for. Using the heading Career is good, but if it is followed by a bullet pointed 'History'then that is confusing. Considering this is composed as well as a performer, it mkaes sense to split these two aspects.
  • That the subject does not read music is trival information. Majority of rock musicians do not read sheet music (ie David Gilmour) and it is not mentioned on their pages.
  • Music for adverts is not notable and has the air of the promotional, the fact that he has released two CDs will bring in more reliable sources. Perhaps a seperate section on the company itself can be recreated if there are enough sources to make it notable.
  • The bullet-pointed history section contains too much trivial information. An unspecified appearance on a live DVD or being a guest on a TV show does not add anything encyclopaedic. Did he perform? Or score? Is there anything of note that involved his contribution? That is unclear.
  • Due to the ambigious headings there is an overlap on the documentary material. That needs to be listed in the music career section only.
  • The collaborations section reads like a list and does not indicate notability and what those collabortations were. That needs to be detailed.
  • There are reference errors throughout - external links should not be used and acceess and source dates are missing.

The aim of the edit as implemented was to improve the structure, apply the required WP:MOS to ensure encyclopedic standard. There also appears to be a copyvio issue with this page, which according to Earwig has almost 50% violation. Karst (talk) 12:08, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Corrections[edit]

A response to the changes made in December 2015: IN CAPS BELOW FOR CLARITY. NOT SHOUTING

• Image taken out - not uploaded properly and possible copyvio. NOT SURE WHAT WAS WRONG ABOUT THE IMAGE BUT I WILL LEAVE OUT TILL I CAN FIGURE IT OUT

• Associated acts need to have a consistent, long-term association with the artist. Like for instance Robert Plant and Allison Kraus who recorded and perfomred together. ASSOCIATED ACTS ARE ALSO USED FOR SIGNIFICANT/SIGNATURE "SIDE PROJECTS" WHERE THE ARTISTS COLLABORATED (EG; WROTE AND PERFORMED TOGETHER AND THEN IT IS RELEASED IN A SPECIAL WAY) FOR A SIGNATURE PIECE OR A FILM. AS THEY ARE RECOGNIZED SPECIAL PIECES THAT ARE KNOWN IN POP CULTURE THATS WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERED ASSOCIATED ACTS AS DISPARATE FROM ANY OR EVERY PIECE OF WORK THE ARTIST HAS DONE).

• As noted above nationality is not included with year of birth. OK IT HAS BEEN REMOVED

• Awards are generally mentioned towards the end of the lede, as they are considered to be as a consequence of their career, which is summerized in the paragraph above (see for instance the Eric Clapton article). AS STATED AN ACADEMY AWARD DISTINCTION IS A TYPE OF COMPOSER HENCE WHY YOU ALWAYS SEE THE DISTINCTION PRECEDE THE COMPOSERS NAME. IT IS LIKE A TITLE SIMILAR TO THE O.B.E., OR M.B.E. TITLE DISTINCTION.

• The line 'who focuses on creating awareness and change through music and film' is both vague and unencyclopedic. I UNDERSTAND THAT IS YOUR OPINION BUT IT IS PROPERLY CITED AND THE ARTIST HAS STATED NUMEROUS TIMES IN REFERENCES AND ARTICLES THAT CLEARLY THAT IS HIS MAIN AND PRIMARY FOCUS. IT IS RARE THAT HE WORKS ON ANYTHING ELSE.

• What awards did the Rumour Mill as a company win? That is unclear. It also has an air of the promotional. I UNDERSTAND THAT IS YOUR OPINION BUT HERE IS THE FIRST GOOGLE SEARCH FROM AN ARTICLE: http://goseetalk.com/interview-composer-j-ralph-on-documentaries-real-life-heroes-and-the-call-to-action/ THE COMPANY HAS WON NUMEROUS AWARDS INCLUDING THE CANNES LION, THE GRANDY, THE CLIO, THE AICP, THE LIAA, THE ONE SHOW AND MANY OTHER DISTINCTIONS WHICH ARE REVEALED BY ANY GOOGLE SEARCH.

• The structure of the article is not clear. This is about an individual and it needs to highlight what he is notable for. Using the heading Career is good, but if it is followed by a bullet pointed 'History'then that is confusing. Considering this is composed as well as a performer, it mkaes sense to split these two aspects. UNDERSTOOD. WILL REORGANIZE AND CHANGE HEADING TO READ NOTABLE ACCOMPLISHMENTS

• That the subject does not read music is trival information. Majority of rock musicians do not read sheet music (ie David Gilmour) and it is not mentioned on their pages. I UNDERSTAND THAT IS YOUR OPINION BUT THIS IS A COMPOSER NOT A ROCK MUSICIAN. A COMPOSER SUCH AS J. RALPH, NOT A ROCK MUSICIAN, WHO WORKS WITH ORCHESTRAS AND DOES NOT READ OR WRITE MUSIC IS VERY RARE. ESPECIALLY WHEN THOSE PLAYERS MUST HAVE SHEET MUSIC AND THE COMPOSER MUST FIND A WAY TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE PLAYERS. IT IS WIDELY COVERED IN NUMEROUS PUBLICATIONS AND CITATIONS.

• Music for adverts is not notable and has the air of the promotional, the fact that he has released two CDs will bring in more reliable sources. Perhaps a seperate section on the company itself can be recreated if there are enough sources to make it notable. I UNDERSTAND THAT IS YOUR OPINION BUT AGAIN IT IS FACTUAL AND CITED IN NUMEROUS PUBLICATIONS AND PROPERLY CITED HERE. IT IS A MAJOR PART OF HIS CARRER JUST AS THE CDS AND FILM SCORES ARE.

• The bullet-pointed history section contains too much trivial information. An unspecified appearance on a live DVD or being a guest on a TV show does not add anything encyclopaedic. Did he perform? Or score? Is there anything of note that involved his contribution? That is unclear. THIS WAS INTENDED TO BE A NOTABLE ACCOMPLISHMENTS SECTION SO I WILL REVISE. YES THEY WERE PERFORMANCES NOT APPEARANCES.

• Due to the ambigious headings there is an overlap on the documentary material. That needs to be listed in the music career section only. HAVE CLARFIED THIS

• The collaborations section reads like a list and does not indicate notability and what those collabortations were. That needs to be detailed. THE COLLABORATIONS SECTION IS A SECTION OF ARISTS J. RALPH HAS COLLABORATED WITH ON SONGS FOR ALBUMS AND FILMS AND PERFORMANCES AND IS PROPERLY CITED.

• There are reference errors throughout - external links should not be used and acceess and source dates are missing. THANK YOU FOR POINTING OUT AND THESE HAVE BEEN CORRECTED.

The aim of the edit as implemented was to improve the structure, apply the required WP:MOS to ensure encyclopedic standard. There also appears to be a copyvio issue with this page, which according to Earwig has almost 50% violation. Karst (talk) 12:08, 21 December 2015 (UTC)I DONT SEE WHAT COPYRIGHT VIOLATION ISSUE THERE IS. EVERYTHING IS PROPERLY SOURCED AND CITED. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldorado74 (talk • contribs) 04:47, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The bio IMDb says Charles Riggens wrote that entry. Reverting the page to that biography, which also appears on the jralph.com webpage (but curiously credited to Wikipedia although not in its current form) results in a copyright violation. Also, I note the response above, but with no changes made to the text. Do you have some kind of professional relation to the J. Ralph? Karst (talk) 13:32, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral Tone[edit]

dear Karst,

As previously discussed, I'm sorry you feel this article is promotional but the article is not opinion or discretionary in any way. It is entirely fact based with everything properly cited from external, valid 3rd party sources (i.e. sources that have nothing to do with either you, me or other editors). As previously discussed there is no COI. I wrote the original article and many people have added to it. Further, you continue to delete factual, useful and updated information by me or other users which is also properly cited and approved by many other users over many years. Please stop vandalizing the article. Thank you, Eldorado 74, 17 March 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldorado74 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 17 March 2016

The tone of the version that you continue to revert to remains too promotional. Let me highlight the issues.
The line 'usually credited as' is strange; is he credited in any other manner? If so, what as? In general we give someone's birth name and then note 'professionally known as' to indicate that the artist uses this for his/her work - see for instance Nicki Minaj. Stating that Mr. Ralph is a social activist is not outlined in the article and notion that 'focuses on creating awareness and change through music and film' is very vague. How does he advocate social change? Is he a member or chair of a foundation? Is he a philanthropist of some sort?
Moving up the mention of the Academy award indicates notability. Declaring the Rumor Mill an award winning company appears promotional. Especially as there is no indication of what kind of awards. So does the line 'numerous Grammy Award winning artists, symphony orchestras, The United Nations, The President of The United States'. The fact that the artist won a Grammy in past has nothing to do with Ralph, it is unclear from the article what work of note he has done with the United Nation or the President (current incumbent?). The suggestion that he has 'more Oscar winning/nominated documentaries than any other composer in the history of the Academy Awards' is not substantiated in any way. Karst (talk) 12:08, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

dear Karst I HAVE RESPONDED TO YOUR COMMENTS BELOW IN CAPS SO IT IS EASY TO SEE. Eldorado 74, 20 March 2016. PLEASE STOP REMOVING FACTUAL PROPERLY CITED MATERIAL FROM THIS ARTICLE

The tone of the version that you continue to revert to remains too promotional. Let me highlight the issues.
The line 'usually credited as' is strange; is he credited in any other manner? If so, what as?

I DIDN'T WRITE THAT LINE BUT IT IS CORRECT. HIS BIRTH NAME IS JOSH RALPH BUT FACTUALLY HE IS USUALLY CREDITED ON THE FILMS AS J. RALPH. THE MOST BASIC SEARCH AT IMDB REVEALS THAT HE IS ALMOST ALWAYS CREDITED AS J. RALPH BUT A FEW TIMES AS JOSH RALPH. IT IS SIMPLY A FACT. AGAIN I DIDNT WRITE THAT SO IF YOU WANT TO TAKE IT OUT OR CORRECT TO PKA I HAVE NO OBJECTION BUT IT IS FACTUALLY CORRECT AS WRITTEN. In general we give someone's birth name and then note 'professionally known as' to indicate that the artist uses this for his/her work - see for instance Nicki Minaj.

Stating that Mr. Ralph is a social activist is not outlined in the article and notion that 'focuses on creating awareness and change through music and film' is very vague. How does he advocate social change? Is he a member or chair of a foundation? Is he a philanthropist of some sort? AGAIN AS PREVIOUSLY STATED THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM ARTICLES THAT ARE PROPERLY CITED. OTHER ARTICLES THAT ARE CITED EXPLAIN THAT HE AND HIS COMPANY "DONATE THEIR FEES TO THESE PROJECTS TO HELP RAISE AWARENESS ND VISIBILITY FOR THE CAUSES". AS IN PHILANTHROPY TO USE YOUR SPECIFIC DEFINITION. I DONT KNOW HOW IT COULD BE ANY MORE CLEAR, ANY MORE FACTUAL THAN A DIRECT QUOTE REFERENCING THE EXACT LINE PERTAINING TO GIVING AWAY MONEY.

Moving up the mention of the Academy award indicates notability.

IT WAS REMOVED FROM THE FIRST SENTENCE PER YOUR REQUEST. IT REMAINS IN THE ARTICLE IS A FACT AND IS STATED AS SUCH.

Declaring the Rumor Mill an award winning company appears promotional. Especially as there is no indication of what kind of awards. THAT IS ONLY YOUR OPNION WHEN IN FACT THE COMPANY HAS WON NUMEROUS AWARDS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. PLEASE SEARCH AICP, CLIO ETC. EASY GOOGLE SEARCH. PROPERLY CITED. PLEASE SEE BELOW: http://www.aicpshow.com/search/The%20Rumor%20Mill/ OR http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20050412005588/en/Barnes-Noble-Announces-Unprecedented-Retailer-Artist-Collaboration-Bookseller

So does the line 'numerous Grammy Award winning artists, symphony orchestras, The United Nations, The President of The United States'. The fact that the artist won a Grammy in past has nothing to do with Ralph, THESE ARE FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT ARE PROPERLY CITED. IT IS ONLY YOUR OPNION THAT IT IS PROMOTIONAL BUT IT IS JUST PURE FACT. http://goseetalk.com/interview-composer-j-ralph-on-documentaries-real-life-heroes-and-the-call-to-action/

it is unclear from the article what work of note he has done with the United Nation or the President (current incumbent?). IT IS PROPERLY CITED AND EASILY VERIFIABLE FOR YOURSELF THAT J. RALPH DID THE MUSIC FOR BAN KI MOONS ILLUMINATIONS PROJECT PROJECTION EVENT FOR THE UNITED NATIONS. REGARDING THE MUSIC FOR THE PRESIDENT ALSO PROPERLY CITED IN NUMEROUS ARTICLES REFERENCED HERE. http://ecowatch.com/2014/09/25/illuminations-extinction-species-louie-psihoyos/ and re: the president http://goseetalk.com/interview-composer-j-ralph-on-documentaries-real-life-heroes-and-the-call-to-action/


The suggestion that he has 'more Oscar winning/nominated documentaries than any other composer in the history of the Academy Awards' is not substantiated in any way. Karst (talk) 12:08, 18 March 2016 (UTC) AGAIN THIS IS YOUR OPINION. IT IS A ABSOLUTE FACT AND IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR YOU, IN YOUR SOLE DISCRETION, TO DECIDE WHAT ACTUAL FACTS SEEM PROMOTIONAL. IT IS YOU THAT IS TAKING LIBERTIES WITH THE ARTICLE WHEN THINGS ARE PROPERLY CITED. IF SOMETHING IS A FACT, IT IS NOT AN OPINION NO MATTER HOW INSIGNIFICANT OR IMPRESSIVE ANY PARTICULAR FACT IS IN THE OPINION OF SOMEONE ELSE. PLEASE STOP REMOVING FACTUAL PROPERLY CITED INFORMATION.[reply]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldorado74 (talk • contribs) 13:50, 20 March 2016‎

I'm finding that we are not going to find consensus here and I will ask for mediation in this matter. Karst (talk) 10:26, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note I have restored Karst's original comment of 12:08, 18 March 2016 as and where it was written (in full with his signature) and left Eldorado74's copy of each point and his responses below that. Eldorado74, never refactor another editor's comment and signature as you did here. The next time you do that, it will be immediately reverted. And sign your comments correctly instead of using fake signatures without a time stamp. I strongly suggest you read the guidelines at WP:TALK and WP:SIGN before making any further comments here. I am also going to point out that to any neutral observer, the promotional tone of this article is blindingly obvious and actually detracts from the subject's image rather than enhancing it. although editors with a conflict of interest can rarely see how counterproductive the puffery is. Karst, if mediation doesn't work and frankly I can't see it being successful given the behaviour here, I suggest you report this to the COI Noticeboard and get some more eyes on the article. Voceditenore (talk) 12:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments and reverts. I will go to COIN once responses have been lodged on the mediation page. Karst (talk) 12:11, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article is properly cited from valid external sources. The fact that you feel it is promotional or a conflict of interest is your opinion. I have explained this numerous times. The facts of the article are facts.Eldorado74 (talk) 15:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:COIN where I have started a discussion about your behaviour please. I also notified the administrator Keith D. Karst (talk) 15:10, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about content/tone[edit]

Hi there! Let's discuss the content over here instead of edit warring. The tone of the article indeed seems to have problems. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:30, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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