Talk:Józef Roman Utnicki

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Article has references and the person is notable[edit]

The article has references and the person is notable as he received the War Cross (Norway) which is the is the highest ranking Norwegian gallantry decoration. I will try to improve on it, but it is clearly an article that should be in Wikipedia. Ulflarsen (talk) 19:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ulflarsen, he never received the War Cross. 13 Poles received the medal and none of them are Józef Roman Utnicki. Bgwhite (talk) 19:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He is listed as Brunon Utnicki, number 93. Ulflarsen (talk) 20:10, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ulflarsen, Brunon and Józef Roman are not remotely the same name. You have to have references that Józef Roman Utnicki received the medal. Bgwhite (talk) 21:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

While sources agree that a Lt. Utnicki received the Norwegian decoration Krigskorset for service in action in the Battle of Narvik, they differ as to given names, creating some uncertainty whether we are talking about the same person or not. In the main Norwegian source on awards of Krigskorset, the book Krigskorset og St. Olavsmedaljen med ekegren, a Lt. Brunen Utnicki is listed among those awarded Krigskorset with sword on 20. March 1942 (p. 28 and 33), and there is a brief description of two attacks in which he distinguished himself (p. 48). When it comes to names (especially of French recipients, but also for others) this book contains some errors and ambiguities. In this article (also in Norwegian) about Arieh Schiff, a soldier serving in the Podhale brigade receiving a different Norwegian medal 62 years after the Battle of Narvik, there is mention that Schiff served in a company led by Lt. Jozef Roman Utnicki. Further it is said that Utnicki later continued to serve with Polish forces in the UK, and that he received the Norwegian War Cross from king Haakon at a ceremony in London in July 1942. The article also says that Utnicki stayed in the UK after the war, that he died there, but was buried in his home town Radom in Poland. According to this source, Lt. Józef Roman Utnicki served in the Podhale brigade and commanded a company. In the London Gazette of 21 June 1960 there is mention of naturalisation of a person named Josef Roman Utnicki (Joseph Roman Utnicki). The online version of the Norwegian government almanac Statskalenderen in 2010 listed "Utnicki, Jósef Roman, porucznik" as a recipient of Krigskorset. I am inclined to think that this is the correct first name. Ordensherre (talk) 14:30, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that being a recipient of Virtuti Militari makes him notable - it's a major award, equivalent to Medals of Honors, Iron Crosses and such. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:47, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus, except there is no reference in the article. Ordensherre has given refs that a person said he won the Norwegian award, a ref saying he was in the war and a ref saying a Josef Roman Utnicki lived in London. This doesn't meet the burden of proof that he actually won the award. There still is no reliable reference saying he won either the Norwegian or Polish awards. The external link on Virtuti Militari that lists the winners is dead. For the Polish award, it looks like The Order of the Virtuti Militari and its cavaliers (ISBN 9780937527009) is the definite word on the subject. While that book is not listed to be available near me, I think I could get loaned to a facility near me. I'm hoping one of you could find a good ref as I haven't been able to except for the book. Bgwhite (talk) 22:40, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Before we take this to AfD I'll ping User:Halibutt who is an expert at finding refs for VM-related topics. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pinging me, @Piotrus:. I'm still away from my keyboard and I didn't have the time to do a thorough research. Some decent sources mention Józef Roman Utnicki as an officer during both the 1939 and 1940 campaigns, so he might be notable by himself. However, a quick search did not lead me to any links that would prove he really received the Virtuti. This doesn't mean much.

When I have time (in September?) I'll try to verify what @Ordensherre: wrote above and turn it into wiki language - unless he or someone else beats me to it :) //Halibu tt 01:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]